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Don't get me wrong I have played the screamer star with 4 heralds and fateweaver. It was playing the first game and going I'm invincible!.. But I have to admit after playing it I felt 'dirty'. Yeah it is a really competitive build, but is it a fair one. Now I play Eldar too, long long before the new codex, and I know the seer council with the barron is pretty nasty too, however I think a little more risky and the troops are much more fragile that daemons.

Is there a viable build that can consistently stand up to either one of these builds... Sure if you get lucky and have or steal initiative if you can get lucky and get an alpha strike on these groups you may destroy them or weaken them a great deal. But that is more chance than anything.. Is there a build that does not depend on first turn. I do not know if there is... The nids are getting a new codex and so I think that shadow of the warp may be changing, so potentially this could hurt the psychic powers. The book of names does not depend on this though.

I just think these lists kind of take the fun out of the game as it is almost an auto win. Yeah you may be able to take out their troops, but by the end of the game they can split apart to contest and will likely take the majority of your army, thus probably costing you the game.
Cheers and thanks for the input

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
Don't get me wrong I have played the screamer star with 4 heralds and fateweaver. It was playing the first game and going I'm invincible!.. But I have to admit after playing it I felt 'dirty'. Yeah it is a really competitive build, but is it a fair one. Now I play Eldar too, long long before the new codex, and I know the seer council with the barron is pretty nasty too, however I think a little more risky and the troops are much more fragile that daemons.

Is there a viable build that can consistently stand up to either one of these builds... Sure if you get lucky and have or steal initiative if you can get lucky and get an alpha strike on these groups you may destroy them or weaken them a great deal. But that is more chance than anything.. Is there a build that does not depend on first turn. I do not know if there is... The nids are getting a new codex and so I think that shadow of the warp may be changing, so potentially this could hurt the psychic powers. The book of names does not depend on this though.

I just think these lists kind of take the fun out of the game as it is almost an auto win. Yeah you may be able to take out their troops, but by the end of the game they can split apart to contest and will likely take the majority of your army, thus probably costing you the game.
Cheers and thanks for the input

Anything with D weapons.

But I would say that most tourneys will not allow escalation and stronghold in their tournaments, so that is ruled out.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
But I would say that most tourneys will not allow escalation and stronghold in their tournaments, so that is ruled out.

I said it more to make a point that it would be a good idea to mention that in the OP, but then forgot to come back and answer properly
Anyway:
Kill fateweaver, and hope for the grimoire to fail.

That is true, but once again you are relying on luck again

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
That is true, but once again you are relying on luck again

Well it's harder to be more specific than that without referencing a specific army.
For example, with my guard, I'd barrage snipe the feth out of the grimoire herald.

The problem with that is that the herald is in the gang of screamers and other heralds, the only way to really snipe him would be with a vindicare assassin and even then he would have a 2up reroll invuln save so not too likely that it will fail..

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
The problem with that is that the herald is in the gang of screamers and other heralds, the only way to really snipe him would be with a vindicare assassin and even then he would have a 2up reroll invuln save so not too likely that it will fail..

1) the whole point of barrage sniping is that you force enough wounds that they fail a couple of LOS! rolls.
2) the grimoire herald CANNOT benefit from the grimoire bonus.

Between the Herald's 4+ invuln, his ability to reroll 1's, and the 2+ LoS roll, it'll take about 14.4 wounds to get one to stick. If the artillery piece is using S6 or higher weaponry, that's enough to ID the herald and wipe him out instantly.

Is this easy? No. Is it feasible? Absolutely.

Corollax wrote:
Between the Herald's 4+ invuln, his ability to reroll 1's, and the 2+ LoS roll, it'll take about 14.4 wounds to get one to stick. If the artillery piece is using S6 or higher weaponry, that's enough to ID the herald and wipe him out instantly.

Is this easy? No. Is it feasible? Absolutely.

14.4 wounds really isn't hard against T4 with manticores, thunderfire cannons, heavy mortars, medusae, and anything else that is barrage...

Well, keep in mind that you also need the blast to land such that the Herald is the closet enemy to the center of the blast template. If there's any scatter, this will typically not be the case.

Corollax wrote:
Well, keep in mind that you also need the blast to land such that the Herald is the closet enemy to the center of the blast template. If there's any scatter, this will typically not be the case.

Meh... Prescience offsets this a lot...

It helps. Getting a direct hit on 55% of your shots is going to make that 14.4 wound estimate a lot easier to reach. Servo skulls can help too, in theory -- but it'll be hard to keep them on the table for more than a turn against a mobile army like Screamers.

I urge you to play against a list like this and see how many times you will lose to it. I played the list once because I thought it would be a fun list and discovered how nasty it was against an Meched up IG list. I have played it against Tau, Eldar, Necrons and lost maybe 1-3 screamers, never a herald. I have not played it against SM yet, but I have only been playing it to show people how nasty the list is. It has yet to lose. I would like a reliable kill for it, I frankly do not think that there is. I agree that killing fateweaver helps, but is not an easy feet.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I urge you to play against a list like this and see how many times you will lose to it. I played the list once because I thought it would be a fun list and discovered how nasty it was against an Meched up IG list. I have played it against Tau, Eldar, Necrons and lost maybe 1-3 screamers, never a herald. I have not played it against SM yet, but I have only been playing it to show people how nasty the list is. It has yet to lose. I would like a reliable kill for it, I frankly do not think that there is. I agree that killing fateweaver helps, but is not an easy feet.

I have played against it. It's a really excellent list, but it's not the scariest thing in the world! :p

Funny that you say that as many american big tournaments are banning 2up rerolls and the book of names... So I would say it is one of the scariest lists...Give me a list that counters it. I am being serious and sincere... I would love to know a list that can consistently beat it, if a good general was in play... I do not think there is a list that can consistently beat this list, even when played by a mediocre player on the daemon side

nope. your screamerstar eldar deathstars are full of win and rainbows. all loose before setting up vrs you.

good job!

</end ego stroke>

 DarthSpader wrote:
nope. your screamerstar eldar deathstars are full of win and rainbows. all loose before setting up vrs you.

good job!

</end ego stroke>

Did you actually read the thread?

Yeah, that kinda came out of left field. If you did read the thread, you might need to re-read for a comprehension check.

I don't think that there are many lists that can obliterate a Screamerstar quite reliably each and every game. It's just playing the scenario and not trying to kill that thing at all costs. That means killing daemon troops, which tend to be very light, and taking objectives with your own troops. This list isn't an auto-win although it's very difficult to face. Otherwise screamerstars would win every major tournament and that is not the case.

Just take nids and spam SitW everywhere or take GK with SRs and SW allies for 2 RPs to create nullify bubbles

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I do not think there is a list that can consistently beat this list, even when played by a mediocre player on the daemon side

Yes there is.

A GK list can be tailored to beat it. Run 3 storm ravens, put prescienced inquisitors (not sure if the "BS10 if shooting at psykers" wargear applies to a transport) inside. Then shoot 6 mindstrike missiles at the heralds for 2 turns in a row. The rest of your army just needs to survive until they get there (some dreadnoughts for reinforced aegis would be good). I haven't ever tested this, but I'm pretty sure it would work.

Funny, I saw how bikes and tau beat these lists just reading the batreps in the other section. I'll take Nids vs Screamer star just about any time.

I've played with my orkses (fun list with lotsa boyz, grots, sag mek, wierdboy and such stuff) vs a screamer star. I can tell you it was not a game vs player but a game vs dice. If he rolls good enough - no chances to kill him - just run around in hopes of taking points - you need fast units for that. If he fails a roll for either 2++ or reroll - he's gona be shot at if i got anything left. The game on the whole appeared to be so boring cause all i was forced to do is running around a single unit of screamers without shootin' or propa fighting and trying to tarpit them long enough to clear his scoring - i was happy we've run out of time before turn 3. Don't know how that would end. I was pretty sure i had chances to force a draw there (or even win if i get really lucky) cause there were many points to score and his scoring was not tough enough to reliably hold vs remaining boyz. And i got lotsa infantry running around. So generally - if you face a screamerstar and don't have prescience barrage or he's not unlucky to fail his psy test - u're forced to run around and clear out scoring. U won't do anything to a 2++ rerollable. I'd not call it autowin but it's defenitely a boring setup cause you don't need no tactical approach - just throw dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically if u're fast enough or can tarpit a screamer star - you can still win - just don't try to do anything to it unless you have specific dedicated means to it (sotw, psy-missiles on raven, vindicare assassin) or at least a barrage to snipe grimoire out.

If your orks and have access to FW I would reccomend taking dread mob dex with a bunch of SAGs everywhere in hopes of landing boxcars for damage if your meta wont allow escalation for double blasta stompas

I don't like forgeworld much - it's so unballanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Same attitude to escalation. I just like lotsa fun but not very strong units. They're alwayz more interesting to play.

Hah, i love the "FW is so unbalanced' when we are talking about units with 2+ rerollable inv saves. Irony aint it?

My DKoK barrage list has given screamerstar fits in practice. 3x thudd guns with prescience inqusitor (and FoMT if needed) and a manticore are easily putting out enough wounds to tear the unit apart. I do miss the barrage medusa artillery, but all things change. DKoK riders clean up the horrors or at least lock them for a while until the deathstar is done and my artillery can re-target.

Corollax wrote:
Between the Herald's 4+ invuln, his ability to reroll 1's, and the 2+ LoS roll, it'll take about 14.4 wounds to get one to stick. If the artillery piece is using S6 or higher weaponry, that's enough to ID the herald and wipe him out instantly.

Is this easy? No. Is it feasible? Absolutely.

Has to be str 8 as herald is t4. Any wise player will protect against barrage with placement.


OP

You can of course tailor a list to beat them but then in a TAC enviroment you probably wont face them and your list will be weaker against all the other armies out there.

The best way to beat them, play the mission and NOT your opponent, yes there is more then one way to play 40k . In say 1850 there will be 800pts plus in one unit, with fateweaver being taken purely as a force multipler 9 games out of 10 so thats 1100pts plus. So your opponent has 700odd points to spend on troops and other stuff. Most screamerstars dont spend that much on troops so kill their troops, protect yours and be prepared to bubble wrap your objectives. Do not bunch up unless you are playing marines, even then it isnt advisable, screamers like to multicharge as most of the time they will be winning combat thus making you do ld checks, do not let this happen. Dont be afriad to throw away units to block them and tie them up, even if it is say a 200pt unit of terminators (not hugely advisable due to t4 but still). Yes the termies wont kill much if anything but it may well take more then a round to lose them thus costing the screamers a turn. IF played wisely screamers can only kill one unit per turn (see the multi assault above) so they have a effective 1100pts + unit killing one of your units a turn, I think usually that should be a good trade off if you are controlling what is being killed by them.

Lets look at some figures as I see the 1 in 36 wounds being banded about here a lot. IF screamers are going first they have a 70% chance to roll forewarning, to cast forewarning and activate the grimoire (assuming re roll for the grimoire only, factoring re rolling a failed cast of forewarning is too much ). See they are going second, this means nothing as they havent got the power off. Then factor in each turn having to cast the forewarning powers (1 in 12 chance of not) and activating the grimoire (1 in 9 chance of them not). Then factor in warpstorm result of 4 reducing their invul save....


Of course if Fateweaver is on the board kill him, frankly he isnt hard to kill... and if troops are on the board kill them. You have played them so you should know the tricks they use (i.e portalglpyh contesting etc). Now you know it it isnt hard to predict it and counter it.


Yes people will say D weapons are the answer but if anyone running such a expensive unit in a escalation game should know what will happen. You wont be seeing deathstars in Escalation games and the meta will see a huge shift to MSU and d weapons, which I reckon will be moaned about just as much as deathstars are at the moment.

The most telling fact is, contary to some peoples belief, screamers havent won anything of note in UK or US (US AFAIK).

Who ever said they will win most games even with a bad general is wrong, there is too much going on with screamers for someone to just pick up and play them. I have seen it quite a few times before, for example in one tourny there were three new screamer players, all three ended up in bottom half of table because they didnt know exactly how to use a 1100pt plus unit that can only kill one unit a turn....

I agree I think you could get lucky with shadow of the warp and nids, esp with Swarmy...
I had not thought about gray knights but I think you are right they could hurt them....
Thanks for the well thought answers and feedback for the ones that did...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthSpader wrote:
nope. your screamerstar eldar deathstars are full of win and rainbows. all loose before setting up vrs you.

good job!

</end ego stroke>

I don't think you read the original post... or maybe you just like being a bit of a twit or maybe just a little screw loose as your picture suggests... lol

MarkyMark wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Between the Herald's 4+ invuln, his ability to reroll 1's, and the 2+ LoS roll, it'll take about 14.4 wounds to get one to stick. If the artillery piece is using S6 or higher weaponry, that's enough to ID the herald and wipe him out instantly.

Is this easy? No. Is it feasible? Absolutely.

Has to be str 8 as herald is t4. Any wise player will protect against barrage with placement.

Tzeentch Heralds are T3, so Str6 barrage is fine to ID them.