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Sorry, it's the Warhound I was meant to ask about, not the Reaver =/

Personally, aside from the *most* abusive multi-D template droppers I'd rather face titans than 2+ rerollable. And even then its debatable.

As one person put it, at least with D weapons the game is won or lost by turn two and I can go play someone else.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Sorry, it's the Warhound I was meant to ask about, not the Reaver =/

Personally, aside from the *most* abusive multi-D template droppers I'd rather face titans than 2+ rerollable. And even then its debatable.

As one person put it, at least with D weapons the game is won or lost by turn two and I can go play someone else.

Im trying to stick to getting non D weapon super heavies to avoid making people feel this way. For example i got the malcador defender recently and well its kinda almost worse than a leman russ after points cost

 ansacs wrote:

@quiestdeus
That is an incredible over simplification. A complete misuse of math and a little silly.

That is similar to me saying that because a lascannon has a 1/6 chance to pen a land raider I have a 1/6 chance to win the game...it is completely false analogy.

I respectfully disagree, and if you truly think what I brought up is the same as your analogy then you have made my point for me.

What I said is certainly a simplification, but not that dramatic. What am I going to do against a titan? Ignore it or try to kill it. "Play the mission" is thrown around all the flippin' time as well. The same "strategies" for dealing with a deathstar also apply to the Revenant titan, however, people become more upset at insurmountable odds that make them pick their models up quickly, rather than slowly, despite statistically sound evidence to the contrary. The whole study of risk perception has proven this principle time and time again. You are more scared of your plane crashing than you are of smoking, yet one of those situations is so much more likely to kill you than the other. Now, one of those is a near certainty and the other quite small - circumstances that are much more dramatic than 16% and 3%, but the underlying thought is the same.

If you do not realistically believe you can kill the titan you will ignore it, which results in the aforementioned 16% chance to live. However, "ignoring the seer council" that will just voltron-separate and contest 4 objectives at the end of the game is a sure way to lose, so you will need to deal with it at some point. When you do, you will have a 3% chance to start causing wounds. You CAN ignore the titan and clear the other 900 points of someone's list, it is just a race against time. You CANNOT ignore the council and hope to have a chance in any mission due to its ability to multi-contest (not to mention it is not shabby at killing units on its own, and generally causing disruption through Runes of Battle powers). I am simply pointing out you have a better chance at surving a wound from a D weapon than you do to deal a wound to rerollable 2+ save. The logic is sound and the comparison is hardly "silly."

quiestdeus wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

@quiestdeus
That is an incredible over simplification. A complete misuse of math and a little silly.

That is similar to me saying that because a lascannon has a 1/6 chance to pen a land raider I have a 1/6 chance to win the game...it is completely false analogy.

I respectfully disagree, and if you truly think what I brought up is the same as your analogy then you have made my point for me.

What I said is certainly a simplification, but not that dramatic. What am I going to do against a titan? Ignore it or try to kill it. "Play the mission" is thrown around all the flippin' time as well. The same "strategies" for dealing with a deathstar also apply to the Revenant titan, however, people become more upset at insurmountable odds that make them pick their models up quickly, rather than slowly, despite statistically sound evidence to the contrary. The whole study of risk perception has proven this principle time and time again. You are more scared of your plane crashing than you are of smoking, yet one of those situations is so much more likely to kill you than the other. Now, one of those is a near certainty and the other quite small - circumstances that are much more dramatic than 16% and 3%, but the underlying thought is the same.

If you do not realistically believe you can kill the titan you will ignore it, which results in the aforementioned 16% chance to live. However, "ignoring the seer council" that will just voltron-separate and contest 4 objectives at the end of the game is a sure way to lose, so you will need to deal with it at some point. When you do, you will have a 3% chance to start causing wounds. You CAN ignore the titan and clear the other 900 points of someone's list, it is just a race against time. You CANNOT ignore the council and hope to have a chance in any mission due to its ability to multi-contest (not to mention it is not shabby at killing units on its own, and generally causing disruption through Runes of Battle powers). I am simply pointing out you have a better chance at surving a wound from a D weapon than you do to deal a wound to rerollable 2+ save. The logic is sound and the comparison is hardly "silly."

Personally I believe a lot of the hate is coming from the top tier lists that now have a chance of actually losing because gw decided to add "change" and people dont like change because now they have to adapt to beating something that their list cant handle.

 tankboy145 wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

@quiestdeus
That is an incredible over simplification. A complete misuse of math and a little silly.

That is similar to me saying that because a lascannon has a 1/6 chance to pen a land raider I have a 1/6 chance to win the game...it is completely false analogy.

I respectfully disagree, and if you truly think what I brought up is the same as your analogy then you have made my point for me.

What I said is certainly a simplification, but not that dramatic. What am I going to do against a titan? Ignore it or try to kill it. "Play the mission" is thrown around all the flippin' time as well. The same "strategies" for dealing with a deathstar also apply to the Revenant titan, however, people become more upset at insurmountable odds that make them pick their models up quickly, rather than slowly, despite statistically sound evidence to the contrary. The whole study of risk perception has proven this principle time and time again. You are more scared of your plane crashing than you are of smoking, yet one of those situations is so much more likely to kill you than the other. Now, one of those is a near certainty and the other quite small - circumstances that are much more dramatic than 16% and 3%, but the underlying thought is the same.

If you do not realistically believe you can kill the titan you will ignore it, which results in the aforementioned 16% chance to live. However, "ignoring the seer council" that will just voltron-separate and contest 4 objectives at the end of the game is a sure way to lose, so you will need to deal with it at some point. When you do, you will have a 3% chance to start causing wounds. You CAN ignore the titan and clear the other 900 points of someone's list, it is just a race against time. You CANNOT ignore the council and hope to have a chance in any mission due to its ability to multi-contest (not to mention it is not shabby at killing units on its own, and generally causing disruption through Runes of Battle powers). I am simply pointing out you have a better chance at surving a wound from a D weapon than you do to deal a wound to rerollable 2+ save. The logic is sound and the comparison is hardly "silly."

Personally I believe a lot of the hate is coming from the top tier lists that now have a chance of actually losing because gw decided to add "change" and people dont like change because now they have to adapt to beating something that their list cant handle.

I definitely agree they are likely some of the voices, but someone who has never played against one of those lists and experienced the futility is going to be more scared of something that seemingly "auto-kills everything" than they are of the one-sided solitaire lists.

I am not going to beat this horse dead as my intent is to only point out the misperception, not get caught up in a huge argument, but think of it this way: The point is not whether sD weapons (frequently used synonymously with "Revenant Titan") or deathstar councils are more killy, more survivable, or overpowered for their points cost. (edit: I realize you are not arguing tankboy145, but rereading this I just wanted to make that clear )

The point is which is more disruptive to the game? A world where sD is banned, and thus the councils are going to be reigned in via fundamental rules changes (comp/ban lists and overly complicated alternative mission setups are the two ideas with the most traction); or a world where sD is allowed, and thus people will just need to change their lists (again) as the meta-shifts (again). I can make a list built to ignore the sD weapon platform (and have a 16% chance of succeeding at that goal) or I can make a list to try and kill a deathstar so it does not out-"play the mission" you (and have a 3% chance of succeeding).

quiestdeus wrote:
I find it hilarious how much hate D weapons are getting compared to how little (proportionally) the rerollable deathstars have.

Look at it this way:

If you get hit with a sD weapon you have a 16% chance to "deal with it" (i.e., 1-in-6 chance they roll a 1 to wound on my infantry).

If I come across a rerollable 2+ save I have a 3% chance to "deal with it" (i.e., 1-in-36 chance they roll double 1s and I actually cause a wound).

I am over 400% more likely to be able to deal with a titan than I am a seer or screamer star, AND the titan takes up more points meaning there are fewer other threats for me to worry about.

Ignoring the fact that someone can, in fact, take both the Revenant AND a mini-seer council, I would happily choose to face the titan over a rerollable 2+ deathstar every day of the week.

You know that story about how they got a cat to get a rat, then a dog to get the cat, then tigers for the dogs, and lions for the tigers? It's almost like some sort of...escalation.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

quiestdeus wrote:
I find it hilarious how much hate D weapons are getting compared to how little (proportionally) the rerollable deathstars have.

Look at it this way:

If you get hit with a sD weapon you have a 16% chance to "deal with it" (i.e., 1-in-6 chance they roll a 1 to wound on my infantry).

If I come across a rerollable 2+ save I have a 3% chance to "deal with it" (i.e., 1-in-36 chance they roll double 1s and I actually cause a wound).

I am over 400% more likely to be able to deal with a titan than I am a seer or screamer star, AND the titan takes up more points meaning there are fewer other threats for me to worry about.

Ignoring the fact that someone can, in fact, take both the Revenant AND a mini-seer council, I would happily choose to face the titan over a rerollable 2+ deathstar every day of the week.

You know that story about how they got a cat to get a rat, then a dog to get the cat, then tigers for the dogs, and lions for the tigers? It's almost like some sort of...escalation.

HA!

I wonder at which step there will be a huge Fantasy migration Didn't one of the first versions have rules for using Space Marines in Fantasy?

Excellent, I feel like a lot of my points were actually made for me in the last couple of posts, many of them better then what I have been trying to write. I was simply trying to create some dialogue to help accelerate the comfort of dealing with super heavies and the terror of strength D weapons. I think much like questdeus said, it's just another shift in the meta, and this actually seems to balance out a bit of the crazy 2++ re-roll death star units. I think the unnamed thought I was having was that the titan seemed much less scary to me then the frustrating super competitive builds that have been taking over tournaments of late. while I don't know if I can credit GW with doing it on purpose. I believe they have created a slight balancing of the game and tournament atmosphere. I look forward to seeing where it goes from here.

 seapheonix wrote:
it's just another shift in the meta, and this actually seems to balance out a bit of the crazy 2++ re-roll death star units. I think the unnamed thought I was having was that the titan seemed much less scary to me

I know you're trying to spin it in a positive way, and I like the Titan models too, but I'd like to point out a few things: Strength D doesn't balance out death star units -- It removes them completely. From hero to zero overnight. If you think I'm exaggerating consider this: Only the competitive tournament players use 2++ re-roll deathstars because you don't bring that crap into friendly games. However, units that cost half your army total and can get wiped out easily in one shooting phase aren't worth it at all. You're risking your entire tournament on "let's hope a superheavy doesn't get to shoot at my eggbasket". In short, nobody will do it.

So basically it's just a matter of which one you prefer. Strength D or hard to kill death stars. There's no right or wrong answer to that question but make no mistake it's a question of either or. You won't have both in the same competitive games. I'm also quite sure superheavies with strength D will remove the last remnants of close combat from the game. Good luck trying to chase a 36" moving Revenant around the field with your guys with Thunder Hammers.

If you want armies that still look 'balanced' and not "one big guy and his 3 small friends" the points value would have to increase drastically, from 1.85K ish to 2.5K ish atleast, and in most tournaments that's just not viable due to time constraints.

Yep they have opened the game so that all builds are composed of the following with no exceptions; extreme MSU with no model worth more than ~20 points, SH, and flyers.

It definitely balances the game between armies. Thanks to forgeworld actually giving each army a decent SH and AA options.

Thank you for removing durability from the equation of value. This does simplify list building.

None of you have address that all of your proposed uses of 900 pts are at best as effective against any single target type and not even remotely as effective against any other target type. Give me a single set of units worth 900 points that can deal as much damage to the following targets as a revenant and then you can talk like you made a point; PFG landraider, terminator SS/TH, wraithguard, wraithknight, riptide, broadside + buffmander, plaguemarines, waveserpent (4+ cover), EW chapter master, seercouncil, grounded daemon prince, great unclean one, Transcendent C'Tan, Nurgle Oblits, and Havoks on a bastion (3+ cover). These are targets that matter as 900 points out of 1750 points leaves plenty to spam jetbike units to score/ground FMC and crimson hunters + void shield generators to handle AA. I didn't even include O'Vesa Star or Screamerstar as you guys were fair enough to not attempt that claim.

Additionally the D weapon on the revenant is a 2 shot weapon. So your chances for survival are 1/6*1/6...wait that is the same as your chance to damage the screamer star but now instead of both of you being alive you are dead and the opponent is not.

I will repeat. The D weapons can be accommodated by the meta but they are extremely polarizing and completely remove the concept of durability from the game. A well played revenant or warhound is as survivable as an entire serpent spam army and has the mobility and range to stay out of danger unlike serpents and screamstars. A properly built anti titan list can and will handle this new meta shift. The sky is not falling but we just effectively reduced the competitive builds in the game to a fraction of those previously possible. If stronghold assault and the forgeworld SH list hadn't been released this game would have been a sad place.

This discussion will go nowhere though as every time someone brings up a point they get a straw man argument in response or a shifting goal line. Every response to one of my comments has involved 900 points of units that change every game or that somehow an objective game is being won completely with a unit that cannot even score. I have seen screamerstars played against and played against them myself. You do not even have to fire a shot at the screamers to win. This meant that far more different army builds could handle a screamerstar than can handle a revenant.

And yes using out of context math is proves absolutely nothing and adds nothing to an argument. Example: There is 1 thread this is posted in; therefore this 1 post proves the 1 point that divided by the 0 other threads means it has infinite impact.

Excellent post Ansacs. I agree wholeheartedly. That's also what I unfortunately don't like about Escalation. 90% of the stuff (or more) in every codex is absolutely non-competitive.

The Escalation ABC army construction:

A) Pick a superheavy.
B) Pick as cheap and plentiful scoring units as possible. Do nothing with them all game except hide and creep towards objectives.
C) Pick some AA.

Everything else is non-competitive, with a few exceptions here and there that validate the rule.

Sorry if that came off as rude or angry. I am not and it is not meant to be just challenging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Therion
You forgot 1 step. Make sure your cheap plentiful scoring is the most mobile option (further limiting the options) and use them to ground FMC if someone dared to not play as a SH vehicle.

 Therion wrote:
Excellent post Ansacs. I agree wholeheartedly. That's also what I unfortunately don't like about Escalation. 90% of the stuff (or more) in every codex is absolutely non-competitive.

The Escalation ABC army construction:

A) Pick a superheavy.
B) Pick as cheap and plentiful scoring units as possible. Do nothing with them all game except hide and creep towards objectives.
C) Pick some AA.

Everything else is non-competitive, with a few exceptions here and there that validate the rule.

I agree with ansacs that this discussion will go nowhere, however I will bite on this and ask how those three steps are at all different than the current army construction steps of:

A) Pick a deathstar
B) Pick as cheap and plentiful scoring units as possible. Do nothing with them all game except hide and creep towards objectives.

At least with escalation we get a third step.

--------

No one is (well, at least I am not) arguing that you could possibly have a meta where deathstars and sD weapons both exist. I absolutely understand and agree. The point is, the chances of dealing with a sD weapon are better than a deathstar, and a number of folks would prefer to play in the Escalation-based meta than continue to play in the current solitaire-esque deathstar meta.

It is that simple.

Yes, sD weapons are crazy - however, they are NOT AS CRAZY as a 2+ rerollable save.

 ansacs wrote:

Thank you for removing durability from the equation of value. This does simplify list building.

None of you have address that all of your proposed uses of 900 pts are at best as effective against any single target type and not even remotely as effective against any other target type. Give me a single set of units worth 900 points that can deal as much damage to the following targets as a revenant and then you can talk like you made a point; PFG landraider, terminator SS/TH, wraithguard, wraithknight, riptide, broadside + buffmander, plaguemarines, waveserpent (4+ cover), EW chapter master, seercouncil, grounded daemon prince, great unclean one, Transcendent C'Tan, Nurgle Oblits, and Havoks on a bastion (3+ cover). These are targets that matter as 900 points out of 1750 points leaves plenty to spam jetbike units to score/ground FMC and crimson hunters + void shield generators to handle AA. I didn't even include O'Vesa Star or Screamerstar as you guys were fair enough to not attempt that claim.

Lets have a go at it. 900 points? I can have 17 (!) crisis suits with two fusion blasters each. doable as troops in FE army to boot. so any surviving member of this idiotic tactic can go hold objectives...

Landraider spam? check, alot of S8AP1. with melta.
Termi spam? check, alot of S8AP1.
Wraithguard? check, alot of S8AP1. (you will never, EVER be in firing range.)
Wraithknight? check, alot of S8AP1. (super high T does not protect that much when you get hit by high S)
EW chapter master? check, alot of S8AP1. (you cant possibly tank THAT many S8AP1)
Wave Serphents? the'll get enough pens the shield will struggle, and the eldar could at least never fire it-as any who shoots is easily removed.
Nurgle Oblits? you get the drill.
Havoks? blow up the bastion first, then blow them up. not even hard.
C'Tan? even he has limits.
Misc demons? ditto.
Rerollable 2++? that's the only real "nothing to do here mate" issue.


This "answer" took me 5 seconds of thought, is basically a spam of a single not-that-amazing unit, employing the S8AP1 spam tactics.
It a crappy answer, and I'm sure a real powergamer could out-think this in moments, and I didn't even bother going into anything cheesy, complex, or even the most basic "add markerlights" combo that could make this a whole lot more lethal.
Its a soggy answer, and behold-"rerollable 2++" is the only thing that it can't have at least a fighting chance against.
And you know what? it seems like nothing EXCEPT D don't really have a sane chance against rerollable 2++.

quiestdeus wrote:
No one is (well, at least I am not) arguing that you could possibly have a meta where deathstars and sD weapons both exist. I absolutely understand and agree. The point is, the chances of dealing with a sD weapon are better than a deathstar, and a number of folks would prefer to play in the Escalation-based meta than continue to play in the current solitaire-esque deathstar meta.

But this is a false dilemma. Why not keep D-weapons out and also do something to get rid of the re-rollable 2++ death stars? The fact that one thing is bad for the game doesn't mean that you should add other bad things just to make a point.

^This. I don't want D and I don't want 2+ rerollable either.

Though as Quiestdeus said, if I had to pick I'd take the D. But frankly I'd take option c) play casual games without either option

Taken to their abusive conclusion, yes...yes they are that crazy.


Keep in mind, one can take:

Farseer
5x3 GJB
Reverent Titan

Vect
5 Warriors

Coteaz

Skyshield Landing Pad

For only 1715 points, which still leaves room to play. This army is almost guaranteed to go first. If Fortune is rolled, the Titan will have a re-rollable 4++. The Titan kicks out two units a turn of almost anything easily. Against another Reverant, this army wins, as it will get the jump. Also, the remaining points can be used to grab more Warriors to bubble wrap the Skyshield as well. If you play 40k competitively, you know this type of list would be used if Escalation is allowed.

This is a quick and easy example of why D-weapons are bad.

 JGrand wrote:
Taken to their abusive conclusion, yes...yes they are that crazy.


Keep in mind, one can take:

Farseer
5x3 GJB
Reverent Titan

Vect
5 Warriors

Coteaz

Skyshield Landing Pad

For only 1715 points, which still leaves room to play. This army is almost guaranteed to go first. If Fortune is rolled, the Titan will have a re-rollable 4++. The Titan kicks out two units a turn of almost anything easily. Against another Reverant, this army wins, as it will get the jump. Also, the remaining points can be used to grab more Warriors to bubble wrap the Skyshield as well. If you play 40k competitively, you know this type of list would be used if Escalation is allowed.

This is a quick and easy example of why D-weapons are bad.

Is that an example of why D weapons are bad or just that titan? would I be able to build a super scary list like that using IG and have a shadowsword?

So far most of the complaints so far are about this titan.

@BoomWolf
You completely ignored being able to get those fusion blasters within range. Lets even say you magically manage that. You then ignore the invulneable saves and cover saves.

34 melta shots a turn;
-Landraider w/PFG, fair enough if you get them all within melta range of 2 landraiders a turn then you are good to go.
-Storm Shield/TH termies; means 4.7 wounds a turn...that is not even what one of the pulsars will do. So you managed half the damage.
-wraithguard is 14 wounds a turn without cover. So you are better than the revenant. Though the second you get a 5+ cover save or worse a 4+ cover save you are equal or worse.
-Wraithknight is a blow out for the revenant. You are almost gauranteed two dead wraithknights a turn with a revenant. Shield, cover, or invlunerable make no difference. Without a save the fusion suits average 1.5 dead wraithknights and with a save (area terrain or shield) they don't quite kill one.
-Waveserpent will give you not even 8 HP a turn if you manage to get all your suits within range (very very hard considering serpents massively outrange you and usually fight Tau with their butts to the board edge). So you slightly outdamaged the D weapons but the content now get to murderize you.
-Oblits; I don't get the pattern because it was not checked with math, Oblits will take 4.5 dead nurgle oblits which equals out to a single pulsar worth of oblits. Or Tzeentch oblits will be 7 oblits which is 1.5 pulsars worth.
-Havoks; since we are saying your magic tau suits are always in melta range we will assumed the havoks don't take casualties from the building exploding (btw it takes 6 melta shots from your suits to destroy a bastion on average). This leaves the havoks in rubble area terrain which when they GtG to tie up that shooting they get a 3+ cover save from. Congrats on your remaining 28 shots killing 4 havoks. You almost manage to tie a single pulsay, which BTW when hitting the havoks would also detonate the building automatically.
-The C'Tan can take less than 3 wounds a turn without much sweat. And may mercy help you if he is out of LoS as his hellstorm templates will wipe out huge swathes of your suits.
-Misc daemons huh, your suggestion cannot even handle a GUO in cover in 3 turns. The revenant has that in a single pulsar. The daemon princes are dependent on the type. A common nurgle DP in his usual area terrain would let you kill 1 a turn.
-The rerollable 2+ is left out as there is nothing but D weapons that can do it in a single turn and no one tried to make that claim.

Your "answer" was not backed up by facts at all. Try again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@tankboy145
The warhound and C'Tan are just as bad or worse against non revenant armies. The revenant is just a better titan killer than either of those.

In fact the C'Tan would be ridiculously broken with double withering waves if not for other D weapons killing it so easily.

Our group uses escalation and indeed the Revenant is feared. However, there are other super heavies without D weapons that are equally difficult to deal with. I play daemons. The big old escalation LoC is crazy good at 999 points and immune to most D weapons as a flyer. If he catches the Titan in cc it is dead.

There is a lot of whining about escalation and the batreps I have been reading have put it in an even worse light. Thr match ups have largely been tainted by good lists against poor lists as we adjust to escalation. I think I've seen only one batrep that uses stronghold (void shields are great equalizers and aquila is sick as well).

I agree with seaphoenix. When players started using screamerstar everyone went ' oh - unfair - OP' and yet we rarely see screamerstar win a tournament. Quick adjustments were made by top players to ensure their list could handle it. Why are people pretending 40k is balanced without escalation? Clearly this is not the case as Tau and Eldar have dominated over the last three four months.

BTW, I'm not advocating escalation. But I do think we need to step back and see what we had prior to escalation being allowed. I don't have any answers but I do have a lot of questions. I'm currently testing a list I hope will handle anything out there. We will see. It does not have d weapons ...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/569465.page

 JGrand wrote:
Taken to their abusive conclusion, yes...yes they are that crazy.


Keep in mind, one can take:

Farseer
5x3 GJB
Reverent Titan

Vect
5 Warriors

Coteaz

Skyshield Landing Pad

For only 1715 points, which still leaves room to play. This army is almost guaranteed to go first. If Fortune is rolled, the Titan will have a re-rollable 4++. The Titan kicks out two units a turn of almost anything easily. Against another Reverant, this army wins, as it will get the jump. Also, the remaining points can be used to grab more Warriors to bubble wrap the Skyshield as well. If you play 40k competitively, you know this type of list would be used if Escalation is allowed.

This is a quick and easy example of why D-weapons are bad.

What's up with Coteaz these days? He can be allied into Eldar without anything else from the inquisition supplement, even when the Eldar are already using Dark Eldar allies?

Your list (and many like it) still demonstrate the point perfectly. The same people who run 900 point max size Seer Councils and Screamerstars would just quickly adapt and start using stuff like this. It's just a matter of moving the goal posts.

There is however one more thing to consider. There's room for strength D, deathstars, comped deathstars and comped strength D in 40K. It's achieved by organising a lot of tournaments every year, many of which use different rules packages. Unrestricted escalation tournaments will have lists like the one above, or some nightmarish Reaver lists with void relays (and personally I think that type of gaming in sub-2K points will get old really quick since armies have less than 20 models each). Unrestricted standard 40K lists have the Seer councils, Ovesastars, Screamerstars and the other standard stuff, and the third types of tournaments might have some comped (weakened) superheavies and comped (weakened) deathstars all in the same game.

well i cant say for everyone else, but i own 2 revenants and a phantom titan, and have used a combo of all of those in apoc games with my DE. and i can say,,,

my first revenant has seen the most games. hes armed with a pair of pulsars, and i even made a custom base for him. (the second is not based) wich makes it easier to blast template/assault him. in about 15 games this guy has wracked up a ton of kills... and when i say kills i mean taking a super heavy from full to dead by himself. to date: 13 baneblade chassis, 9 stompas, a thunderhawk (guy decided was brilliant to go to hover mode right in front of me so he could unload a 10 man assault termie squad... nope. one gun to the unit, the other to the ship, both go away, thanks!), 4 warhounds and heirophant. hes also taken on a reaver titan, and done damn well, but just couldnt keep up with the void shields coming back. in that match i managed to knock off 5 of its HP, (old rules) 1 of its guns, and reduce its movment a bunch but i was weaponless and down to a pair of HP. game ended, but likley i would have lost it next turn. - wich btw he has never been killed in a game. close a few times, but never been killed.

put simply, the revenant can fire at 60" all while bouncing around the table to stay away from would be assaulters and away from things like lazcannons. since its a D weapon he does not care about your cover, and has no problem making units, tanks, SH go away. for its points you have probally one of the best titans in its class. warhounds cant match the speed or defensive ability, and baneblades stompas etc dont ususally have the firepower or defensive edge.

now... dealing with it? i suggest fliers. eldar titans almost always pack template weapons wich cant touch aircraft. so you are safe from the titans return fire, and since they have lighter armor, things like thunderbolt fighters can put a good dent in these guys without too much worry of return damage, save for his buddies on the ground.

now... dealing with it? i suggest fliers. eldar titans almost always pack template weapons wich cant touch aircraft. so you are safe from the titans return fire, and since they have lighter armor, things like thunderbolt fighters can put a good dent in these guys without too much worry of return damage, save for his buddies on the ground.

The 730 point Vampire is a pretty good deal especially as it now for mysterious reasons has 12 hull points. You'll fit a little bit stronger army around it than with the Revenant, and you'll be immune in most superheavy vs superheavy fights meaning you should win in the end. You can even keep some scoring stuff with you if you take the Raider variant. If you have no strength D threats you can hover all game and start the game from your skyshield landing pad with the 5 point upgrade.

What am i suppose to even do about reaver titans & other super heavies?

The only thing i know is a list of a titan in a 1500 pt list i saw a few weeks ago. I have not had the chance to lose to a superheavy yet.

So what must i do as a pawn of chaos to prepare and adapt to the change in the meta?

Extreme MSU, lots of high strength firepower, flyers, and your own super heavy.

As CSM this means; lots of minimum size squads of zombie/cultists/cult CSM troops, helldrakes (huge help to wipe out the opponent's scoring), Be'lakor (his flying makes him immune to the D and his puppet master makes the opponent's titan a liability), and the CSM warhound is a top rank titan probably one of the best.

Oblits actually aren't bad en mass against LoW as they can select the best weapon when they DS in right next to it. Even if the opponent doesn't take a LoW you still have any weapon you need.

 Filch wrote:
What am i suppose to even do about reaver titans & other super heavies?

The only thing i know is a list of a titan in a 1500 pt list i saw a few weeks ago. I have not had the chance to lose to a superheavy yet.

So what must i do as a pawn of chaos to prepare and adapt to the change in the meta?

Well other titans and suoerheavies can be taken down just like any other tough av14 tank, just build your lists as if you were fighting IG demolisher spam, I.e. be prepared for large blasts that will kill whatever is under them, so take fmcs, flyers, and MSU ground forces to minimize the impact of the enemy guns, taking deep striking units to suicide melta the enemy will be very useful for taking down a few HP off. If you face a loldar titan though you are pretty much boned unless you have a flying circus filled with fmcs or a flying bakery of delicious crescents because it is silly durable, fast, and has the damages that are crazy for its points.

This stuff is just getting so silly

Thank you gummybear & ansac.

Btw how does d weapon ignore invul saves?

The rules say it ignores them and any roll to mitigate damage (gives examples too like necron RP)

The real question is : why dumping 1k points in a super heavy when your opponent will have 500 points of deep striking meltas in reserve just in that case ?

Loads of armies are able to deep strike units (Tau suits, CSM terminators with combi melta, drop pod vets etc...). That should bring a Titan down ?