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 Seb wrote:
The real question is : why dumping 1k points in a super heavy when your opponent will have 500 points of deep striking meltas in reserve just in that case ?

Loads of armies are able to deep strike units (Tau suits, CSM terminators with combi melta, drop pod vets etc...). That should bring a Titan down ?

This is the response people constantly rattle off in every single one of these discussions.

Yes, this will possibly deal with most the Lords of War that happens to be vehicles. However, it will be woefully ineffective against Gargantuan Creatures, particularly the flying ones. For example, 10 BS4 Meltaguns will (on average) deal just over 1 wound to a Transcendent Ctan. It just seems like it's impossible to create a list that is able to combat gargantuan creatures, superheavies, and flyers. Basically, an all-comers list becomes more or less impossible in a post-Escalation environment.

 magodedisco wrote:

 Seb wrote:
The real question is : why dumping 1k points in a super heavy when your opponent will have 500 points of deep striking meltas in reserve just in that case ?

Loads of armies are able to deep strike units (Tau suits, CSM terminators with combi melta, drop pod vets etc...). That should bring a Titan down ?

This is the response people constantly rattle off in every single one of these discussions.

Yes, this will possibly deal with most the Lords of War that happens to be vehicles. However, it will be woefully ineffective against Gargantuan Creatures, particularly the flying ones. For example, 10 BS4 Meltaguns will (on average) deal just over 1 wound to a Transcendent Ctan. It just seems like it's impossible to create a list that is able to combat gargantuan creatures, superheavies, and flyers. Basically, an all-comers list becomes more or less impossible in a post-Escalation environment.

You forgot to add that even if you're using superheavies yourself you won't be capable of making an all-comers list. Every escalation list posted at Dakka tactics, army lists and battle reports forums so far can be countered by another escalation list. It really is a rock, paper, scissors game where the only variable is the roll of who goes first / seize the initiative.

Now the actual question is whether that's a bad thing or not. If a single list that crushes all opponents cannot be created we actually might get more variety at tournaments than what we have now.

 Therion wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:

 Seb wrote:
The real question is : why dumping 1k points in a super heavy when your opponent will have 500 points of deep striking meltas in reserve just in that case ?

Loads of armies are able to deep strike units (Tau suits, CSM terminators with combi melta, drop pod vets etc...). That should bring a Titan down ?

This is the response people constantly rattle off in every single one of these discussions.

Yes, this will possibly deal with most the Lords of War that happens to be vehicles. However, it will be woefully ineffective against Gargantuan Creatures, particularly the flying ones. For example, 10 BS4 Meltaguns will (on average) deal just over 1 wound to a Transcendent Ctan. It just seems like it's impossible to create a list that is able to combat gargantuan creatures, superheavies, and flyers. Basically, an all-comers list becomes more or less impossible in a post-Escalation environment.

You forgot to add that even if you're using superheavies yourself you won't be capable of making an all-comers list. Every escalation list posted at Dakka tactics, army lists and battle reports forums so far can be countered by another escalation list. It really is a rock, paper, scissors game where the only variable is the roll of who goes first / seize the initiative.

Now the actual question is whether that's a bad thing or not. If a single list that crushes all opponents cannot be created we actually might get more variety at tournaments than what we have now.

I think it is absolutely a bad thing. I believe most players would prefer games that involve two all-comers lists facing off over a rock-paper-scissors environment.

 magodedisco wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 magodedisco wrote:

 Seb wrote:
The real question is : why dumping 1k points in a super heavy when your opponent will have 500 points of deep striking meltas in reserve just in that case ?

Loads of armies are able to deep strike units (Tau suits, CSM terminators with combi melta, drop pod vets etc...). That should bring a Titan down ?

This is the response people constantly rattle off in every single one of these discussions.

Yes, this will possibly deal with most the Lords of War that happens to be vehicles. However, it will be woefully ineffective against Gargantuan Creatures, particularly the flying ones. For example, 10 BS4 Meltaguns will (on average) deal just over 1 wound to a Transcendent Ctan. It just seems like it's impossible to create a list that is able to combat gargantuan creatures, superheavies, and flyers. Basically, an all-comers list becomes more or less impossible in a post-Escalation environment.

You forgot to add that even if you're using superheavies yourself you won't be capable of making an all-comers list. Every escalation list posted at Dakka tactics, army lists and battle reports forums so far can be countered by another escalation list. It really is a rock, paper, scissors game where the only variable is the roll of who goes first / seize the initiative.

Now the actual question is whether that's a bad thing or not. If a single list that crushes all opponents cannot be created we actually might get more variety at tournaments than what we have now.

I think it is absolutely a bad thing. I believe most players would prefer games that involve two all-comers lists facing off over a rock-paper-scissors environment.

I agree. See, the problem is that those who want to be competitive always take everything to the extreme. A vast majority of lists that people worldwide play casually with lose to a properly designed Jetseer or Ovesastar list. It's just as much of a rock to everyone else's scissors, as say a Reaver Titan is to something that can't even get through the armor or the void shields. With the most competitive pre-escalation lists there just happens to be an illusion of a game, when in reality the outcome of the battle is one hundred percent decided already in the setup phase. In other words, pre-escalation there's an illusion of balance, and escalation removes all doubt and proves even to the most enchanted fanboys that none exists.

Now I didn't say I prefer battles between superheavies to pre-escalation games or the other way around, just that it's something to think about before making judgment.

Most of the superheavies are fine. Like, one of you guys mentioned the Harridan? That thing is completely balanced. Some of them are basically Wraithknights with a 200 point tax.

The only problem I see with Escalation is when one player is left without a superheavy against someone who does have one, D weapons, and trying to find a list that can combat superheavies without being useless against lists without superheavies.

Lately I have been seing crons just dominating our meta with anti titan lists because nobody was bringing the traditional lists to be the paper to its rock, while it kept smashing the scissors. As a matter of fact I was one of the ones with the rock, sure the revenants can be tricky but all a cron player has to do is survive t1 and its GG. All they need to do is take an anrakyr bomb or other 400 pointish things that can survive like maybe some wraiths and Dlord, and then t2 massacre them with flyers and a DS pylon inside of their voidshields

 A GumyBear wrote:
Lately I have been seing crons just dominating our meta with anti titan lists because nobody was bringing the traditional lists to be the paper to its rock, while it kept smashing the scissors. As a matter of fact I was one of the ones with the rock, sure the revenants can be tricky but all a cron player has to do is survive t1 and its GG. All they need to do is take an anrakyr bomb or other 400 pointish things that can survive like maybe some wraiths and Dlord, and then t2 massacre them with flyers and a DS pylon inside of their voidshields

Not really. It's not that easy to beat a good player with a Revenant. A good Revdar list should have plenty of anti-air and jetbike troops. This would be what I would run at 2K if I was playing Eldar in Escalation.

Revenant

Autarch - Fusion, Laser Lance, Jetbike, Mantle of the Laughing God

6x3 Windrider Jetbikes - 1x Shuriken Cannon on 5 of them

3x Nightwing Interceptors

2x Vaul's Wrath Batteries

Void Shield Generator w/3 Void Shields


With 3 nightwing flyers, that's some pretty good anti-air firepower.

Usually in such a matchup, whoever is going 2nd has a slight advantage, but it is far from an auto-win by the crons.