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so much split hair, so little time to care!

The FAQ states clearly how to use the Heldrake. The Torrent special rule is also clearly explained.

Why is the OP's request for a rules clarification an acceptable place for a reading comprehension argument?

Because someone was wrong on the internet.


Also I clearly stated my reasoning for clarifying the turret rules.


Slayer: 2 parts here:

1) The neck is not the gun mounting, although it looks like an Articulated portion of the model that would allow for greater than a Direct forward, or 45* arc for a mounting that cannot move(the mouth)

2) I already stated that the FAQ allows for 360* in the Range explanation; the fallacy I was explaining was that Turrets do not automatically mean 360* by virtue of being turrets.

All these rules are clear when you read the words and ignore the examples of those vehicles; case in point there are 2 Sponson diagrams showing the firing arc of 2 different vehicles that have different sponson firing arcs.

p.72

"On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings."

MarsNZ wrote:
p.72

"On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings."

And not all mountings allow a gun to swivel or rotate a full 360 degrees.

Not all, but probably most

Bottom line any turret weapon CAN rotate 360 degree's.

It cannot shoot at anything it cannot point at or could not point at. IE you cannot fire through your own hull. So a landraider Could fire it's assault cannon directly backwards at say a Trigon, or a Flyer since it would be pointing up over the hull and still pointing at the target.

A Helldrake's turret is it's neck which could theoretically point in any direction except straight backwards through it's own body.

HOWEVER!!! It is a vehicle and not a MC. So the small end of the template is always placed at the weapon NOT the base. Just like a Skorcha on a Ork wagon. It simply per the rules ignored it's own hull being touched by the template.

So that limits to a large degree how and where and what it can hit with it's flamer.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Bottom line any turret weapon CAN rotate 360 degree's.

It cannot shoot at anything it cannot point at or could not point at. IE you cannot fire through your own hull. So a landraider Could fire it's assault cannon directly backwards at say a Trigon, or a Flyer since it would be pointing up over the hull and still pointing at the target.

A Helldrake's turret is it's neck which could theoretically point in any direction except straight backwards through it's own body.

HOWEVER!!! It is a vehicle and not a MC. So the small end of the template is always placed at the weapon NOT the base. Just like a Skorcha on a Ork wagon. It simply per the rules ignored it's own hull being touched by the template.

So that limits to a large degree how and where and what it can hit with it's flamer.

except its flamer has torrent

Wagguy80 wrote:
Bottom line any turret weapon CAN rotate 360 degree's.

Totally wrong.
But in this specific case, true.

Wagguy - no, as the assault cannot can't actually rotate behind. The hull gets in the way

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
How do you turn the neck of a model made to look like a dragon?, because if you've forgot, his weapon is in its mouth...

Use of excessive physical force should do it.

Actually, according to the FAQ the Heldrake's Baleflamer exists at every point around its base simultaneously.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wagguy - no, as the assault cannot can't actually rotate behind. The hull gets in the way

Physically, it can. The assault cannon can pivot about 50 degrees upwards if that joint has not been glued. This gives it easily enough clearance to pivot up and rotate 360 degrees, clearing the hull.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Bottom line any turret weapon CAN rotate 360 degree's.

It cannot shoot at anything it cannot point at or could not point at. IE you cannot fire through your own hull. So a landraider Could fire it's assault cannon directly backwards at say a Trigon, or a Flyer since it would be pointing up over the hull and still pointing at the target.

A Helldrake's turret is it's neck which could theoretically point in any direction except straight backwards through it's own body.

HOWEVER!!! It is a vehicle and not a MC. So the small end of the template is always placed at the weapon NOT the base. Just like a Skorcha on a Ork wagon. It simply per the rules ignored it's own hull being touched by the template.

So that limits to a large degree how and where and what it can hit with it's flamer.

Once again wrong...do people even bother to read rules FaQs?

It clearly says that you measure distances of the baleflamer( or hades canon) from the base and from the closest point towards the target, so yeah...the Heldrake can fire right behind his back( or if you play a Nurgle oriented army you can imagine something else...)

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Actually, according to the FAQ the Heldrake's Baleflamer exists at every point around its base simultaneously.

Schrödinger's Baleflamer!

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Actually, according to the FAQ the Heldrake's Baleflamer exists at every point around its base simultaneously.

Not at all true.

The Bale Flamer(or HAC) sits only at the nearest edge of the base to the target unit; wherever that point on the base happens to be.

It is never everywhere, it is at a given point or nowhere(as it does not matter and the gun barrels do not stick out of the mouth really)

And i thought we had made is clear that a Land Raider's TL Assault Canon is a Hull-mounted weapon and not a turret?

 BlackTalos wrote:
And i thought we had made is clear that a Land Raider's TL Assault Canon is a Hull-mounted weapon and not a turret?

No, and No it isn't.

Neither is the Las/Assault Cannons on the Storm Raven, nor the Heavy Bolter turret on the Baneblade, etc.

I hadn't read the FAQ but it is pretty clear. Since FAQ overrides everything in this case you simply put the template anywhere with the small end touching the base at the point nearest the target.

Wagguy80 wrote:
I hadn't read the FAQ but it is pretty clear. Since FAQ overrides everything in this case you simply put the template anywhere with the small end touching the base at the point nearest the target.

Close.

You measure up to 12" from the nearest edge to your target, then place the template so that the Big end is not closer than the small end(Baleflamer is a torrent weapon)

 BlackTalos wrote:
And i thought we had made is clear that a Land Raider's TL Assault Canon is a Hull-mounted weapon and not a turret?

Since it's not hull mounted that wouldn't be "making it clear" it'd be "making it up".

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Actually, according to the FAQ the Heldrake's Baleflamer exists at every point around its base simultaneously.

Not at all true.

The Bale Flamer(or HAC) sits only at the nearest edge of the base to the target unit; wherever that point on the base happens to be.

It is never everywhere, it is at a given point or nowhere(as it does not matter and the gun barrels do not stick out of the mouth really)

So to accurately model the Heldrake's weapon we require a mount that spins around the edge of the base?

Or you just...you know...do has the FaQ says and measure from the base...

Yes, and to be able to draw line of sight from any edge of the base and down the barrel of the gun, the gun must be able to pivot around the entire base, requiring some sort of spinning mount laid into the base or hanging off the Heldrake.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
And i thought we had made is clear that a Land Raider's TL Assault Canon is a Hull-mounted weapon and not a turret?

No, and No it isn't.

Neither is the Las/Assault Cannons on the Storm Raven, nor the Heavy Bolter turret on the Baneblade, etc.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347982.page
"Actually, it's neither hull or turret mounted. None of the weapons have specified mountings on the landraider. "
Ah, sorry, it's just "Nothing", but not a turret...

My bad, i just knew we had decided it was not a turret.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes, and to be able to draw line of sight from any edge of the base and down the barrel of the gun, the gun must be able to pivot around the entire base, requiring some sort of spinning mount laid into the base or hanging off the Heldrake.

No you just fo0llow the rules laid out in the FAQ, you do not follow the mounting.

Talos: Mountings are no longer defined in Unit entries excepting the occasional stated "Hull mounted" or "Sponson" you simply look at the model.

Or is the Predator Autocannon also not turret mounted? Or the Leman Russ?

 BlackTalos wrote:
My bad, i just knew we had decided it was not a turret.

Because someone 3 years ago from 5th Edition said it wasn't?

It most certainly is a turret.

Back to the Heldrake....

If we measure from the base, then doesn't this severely limit the TLoS that the Heldrake has? If the base of the Heldrake is on one side of an ADL, and my Marines are on the other, I'm pretty sure the ADL blocks LoS from the closest part of the Heldrake base to any of my models, since the base is so short.

We only measure from the base.

LOS is completely not handled.

I'm having trouble understanding the unique nature of the Heldrake, then.
Can you (or someone) explain how to draw LoS from the Heldrak and also measure distance to the target, referencing the Vehicle rules in the BRB?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I'm having trouble understanding the unique nature of the Heldrake, then.
Can you (or someone) explain how to draw LoS from the Heldrak and also measure distance to the target, referencing the Vehicle rules in the BRB?

There aren't any.

The FAQ tells us the Ranged weapons have a 360* arc and that we measure from the nearest edge of the base, the closest approximation we can make is to simply use the hull for determining LOS as that is(sort of) the mounting, then measure from the base.