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 seapheonix wrote:
There has to be a pretty even chance asurmen could manage it. All you need is horus to fail a leadership test and he is removed from the table.

Err doubt it. Horus probably kills him in a single round...

Scout sergeant Cato... Hes one of my vet scout sergeants. He has a powersword, bolt pistol and meltabombs. In one game he took out a wave serpent, its fire dragon squad (swept), a guardian squad (swept), a dreadnought (DA allies), then immobilised a second wave serpent... seven turns later, being the only blood angel left standing alongside a majorly p*ssed off Lemartes. That guy would MINCE Horus, blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back whilst doing a chicken dance.

Silly question. Is he EW?

Lukas the Trickster - if he dies - chance Horus goes with him

Of course. He also has the defensive stats of a nova-charged riptide, effectively a 2+ DTW, ignores any negative characteristic modifier on a 3+, has a few other special rules as part of being a Primarch like IWND and Fear and has a couple of different and very deadly weapons he can use to crush his opponents. I don't think any single hero can match him at all, only a Daemon Lord or similar has any chance to kill him - a Brass Scorpion actually has a 50% shot to remove him from the table each round of combat, but it's going to take a beating from that hammer. Asurmen and Lorgar run afoul of the fact they need crazy luck to get past him, he isn't failing a leadership test without something like Weaken Resolve and good luck pulling that off against arguably the best psychic defense in the entire game.

50-50 shot of old zogwart winning

frgsinwntr 570363 6386540 26ad5ed6d967e51d9f5db1897a 634d4c.jpg wrote:50-50 shot of old zogwart winning

Far less as he denies the witch on a 2+ (3+ from his armour and plus one to his roll since he has the primarch rule).

Vulcan walks up and kills him, fairly easily too. Ferrus has an excellence chance too. I've found that equivilant point devastator centurions can also do serious damage to a primarch at range.

After that anything with "remove from play" like abilities has a chance.

 Lobukia wrote:
Vulcan walks up and kills him, fairly easily too. Ferrus has an excellence chance too. I've found that equivilant point devastator centurions can also do serious damage to a primarch at range.

After that anything with "remove from play" like abilities has a chance.

Err no. Really really no. Vulcan and Ferrus struggle to get 1-2 wounds of him. I've tested it out time and time again. Trust me, when he uses the talon they aren't even close to beating him

There's a reason Horus is a solid 75 points more expensive than the others, and it's because of the Talon. It is one of the best melee weapon in the game.

 McNinja wrote:
There's a reason Horus is a solid 75 points more expensive than the others, and it's because of the Talon. It is one of the best melee weapon in the game.

Agreed. When you actually see it in action against the other primarchs you realise how utterly stupidly powerful it is. It almost always strikes first, hits at a very solid strength 7, rerolls wounds, penetrates all armor. If he starts wounding, which he will its all over.
In a primarch 1v1 it's all about getting in a good turn of hits on the opponent before they can IWND them back. With Horus when they are wounded they are irrevocably damaged. Most of the time you find the opponent unable to hurt you rather than actually dead.

BaconUprising wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Vulcan walks up and kills him, fairly easily too. Ferrus has an excellence chance too. I've found that equivilant point devastator centurions can also do serious damage to a primarch at range.

After that anything with "remove from play" like abilities has a chance.

Err no. Really really no. Vulcan and Ferrus struggle to get 1-2 wounds of him. I've tested it out time and time again. Trust me, when he uses the talon they aren't even close to beating him

Ferrus and Vulkan both has 3++ saves and WS7. Both of their weapons are concussive, so when they wound him they will go first in the next round of combat. However, even if Ferrus does not manage to wound Horus, he still strikes last due to strikedown.

 McNinja wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Vulcan walks up and kills him, fairly easily too. Ferrus has an excellence chance too. I've found that equivilant point devastator centurions can also do serious damage to a primarch at range.

After that anything with "remove from play" like abilities has a chance.

Err no. Really really no. Vulcan and Ferrus struggle to get 1-2 wounds of him. I've tested it out time and time again. Trust me, when he uses the talon they aren't even close to beating him

Ferrus and Vulkan both has 3++ saves and WS7. Both of their weapons are concussive, so when they wound him they will go first in the next round of combat. However, even if Ferrus does not manage to wound Horus, he still strikes last due to strikedown.

Having the same save by no means guarantees victory. Horus also has higher WS so strikes on a 3+. The first wound is relatively harder to get on a 3-4+ I forget. After the first wound he starts to kill them. After a few wounds you really do see Horus taking over significantly. At first they seem pretty even. As I said IWND plays a large factor as Horus can regenerate fully. The others can only regenerate their wounds.
Try it out with proxies, you'll see what I mean...

A writer can beat Horus

The emporhore.

BaconUprising wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Vulcan walks up and kills him, fairly easily too. Ferrus has an excellence chance too. I've found that equivilant point devastator centurions can also do serious damage to a primarch at range.

After that anything with "remove from play" like abilities has a chance.

Err no. Really really no. Vulcan and Ferrus struggle to get 1-2 wounds of him. I've tested it out time and time again. Trust me, when he uses the talon they aren't even close to beating him

Talon doesn't affect Vulcan's Str. His weapon is Str 10, not him and he' ll go first. He has a better IWND and if Horus wants to lower his WS that's turns where he's taking more wounds than Vulcan. By the time you get WS low enough to matter (3), that's a hurt Horus. I have tested it too. Make sure you read the rules.

I don't have books with me, but IIRC, Vulcan has 4 attacks, 2 hit, 2 should wound, every 3 rounds Horus takes 2 wounds... Every 3 rounds he heals 1 wound. Horus has 5 attacks, hits with 3. If he wants to drop WS, every 2 rounds he'll do 1 wound with shred and Vulcan heals at that rate. So for three phases Horus does nothing to Vulcan but takes a wound, maybe 2. Assuming no 1st round assault. We're into round 3 of the game at best, most likely round 4. From here on Horus hits with 3 attacks, wounds three, does 1, and for every 3 he does, Vulcan heals 2. Meanwhile Vulcan hits 3 times every two rounds, wounds 3 times, Horus takes 1, but should heal at same rate. Game ends and at worst they're each down two wounds. Horus can't beat by dropping Vulcans stats. It's close this way. If Vulcan charged, they kill each other on the same turn way after the game ends. Otherwise Horus should win but it's well into the 3rd game before that happens.

If he goes the other route and just tried to smash him to death, Horus hits 3 times, wounds 3, Vulcan takes 1. Vulcan hits twice, does 2 wounds, every 3 phases Horus takes 2. So in 6 phases Horus does 5 wounds but Vulcan heals 3. Vulcan does 4 wounds but Horus heals 2. Statistically, 2/3 the time Vulcan wounds first, so Horus dies first. If Vulcan charged its a little better as he's healing first and can shoot him too. Horus going first helps him too. But not as much, rounding, 70% of the time, if the game were to last double digit rounds, Vulcan lives this route.

Regardless, in game, Vulcan at worst neutralizes Horus...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I should have said a charging Vulcan kills Horus, and fairly easily if any game went into 20ish turns.

 Lobukia wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Vulcan walks up and kills him, fairly easily too. Ferrus has an excellence chance too. I've found that equivilant point devastator centurions can also do serious damage to a primarch at range.

After that anything with "remove from play" like abilities has a chance.

Err no. Really really no. Vulcan and Ferrus struggle to get 1-2 wounds of him. I've tested it out time and time again. Trust me, when he uses the talon they aren't even close to beating him

Talon doesn't affect Vulcan's Str. His weapon is Str 10, not him and he' ll go first. He has a better IWND and if Horus wants to lower his WS that's turns where he's taking more wounds than Vulcan. By the time you get WS low enough to matter (3), that's a hurt Horus. I have tested it too. Make sure you read the rules.

I don't have books with me, but IIRC, Vulcan has 4 attacks, 2 hit, 2 should wound, every 3 rounds Horus takes 2 wounds... Every 3 rounds he heals 1 wound. Horus has 5 attacks, hits with 3. If he wants to drop WS, every 2 rounds he'll do 1 wound with shred and Vulcan heals at that rate. So for three phases Horus does nothing to Vulcan but takes a wound, maybe 2. Assuming no 1st round assault. We're into round 3 of the game at best, most likely round 4. From here on Horus hits with 3 attacks, wounds three, does 1, and for every 3 he does, Vulcan heals 2. Meanwhile Vulcan hits 3 times every two rounds, wounds 3 times, Horus takes 1, but should heal at same rate. Game ends and at worst they're each down two wounds. Horus can't beat by dropping Vulcans stats. It's close this way. If Vulcan charged, they kill each other on the same turn way after the game ends. Otherwise Horus should win but it's well into the 3rd game before that happens.

If he goes the other route and just tried to smash him to death, Horus hits 3 times, wounds 3, Vulcan takes 1. Vulcan hits twice, does 2 wounds, every 3 phases Horus takes 2. So in 6 phases Horus does 5 wounds but Vulcan heals 3. Vulcan does 4 wounds but Horus heals 2. Statistically, 2/3 the time Vulcan wounds first, so Horus dies first. If Vulcan charged its a little better as he's healing first and can shoot him too. Horus going first helps him too. But not as much, rounding, 70% of the time, if the game were to last double digit rounds, Vulcan lives this route.

Regardless, in game, Vulcan at worst neutralizes Horus...

The wording of Horus' disabling strike means that the model is reduced by 1 strength and 1 WS. This means it still affects Vulcan whether the strength comes from his weapon or not. In this case he kills Vulcan rleatively easily.
Oh yeah btw when an opponent reaches WS 4 Horus gains +D3 attacks due to weapons mastery. Also, unless its been FAQ'd Horus has 6 attacks as he fights with 2 hand weapons. Would you mind reading me the exact wording of Vulcans weapon?

The weapon stat: Str 10. So not affected by his stat line. He can be Str 10 or 1, his weapon hits at 10, it's Str.

 Lobukia wrote:
The weapon stat: Str 10. So not affected by his stat line. He can be Str 10 or 1, his weapon hits at 10, it's Str.

The model is reduced by -1 strength. I would assume that unless its FAQ'd he hits with one less strength each wound.
The debilitating strike is not listed as affecting his stat line, the model as a whole loses the strength.

What's Vulcan's Str? Now subtract 1. Now tell me what his weapon does. Models have stats, weapons have stats. They are separate. DS will not affect Vulcan's hits. Go ahead and ask this on YMTC. If it says "strikes at -1 WS and S" you'd have a case. It doesn't.

Also someone like Belakor, if you boost him with Grimorie would have a chance. Imagine an invisible, 2+ save, Belakor. It would take some synergy, and isn't a fair fight, but 1 herald boosting Belakor would be close on points and could do it. Belakors got a very high WS, fleshbane, master crafted, high I, lots of attacks, and Horus is WS1 against him.

 Lobukia wrote:
What's Vulcan's Str? Now subtract 1. Now tell me what his weapon does. Models have stats, weapons have stats. They are separate. DS will not affect Vulcan's hits. Go ahead and ask this on YMTC. If it says "strikes at -1 WS and S" you'd have a case. It doesn't.

Also someone like Belakor, if you boost him with Grimorie would have a chance. Imagine an invisible, 2+ save, Belakor. It would take some synergy, and isn't a fair fight, but 1 herald boosting Belakor would be close on points and could do it. Belakors got a very high WS, fleshbane, master crafted, high I, lots of attacks, and Horus is WS1 against him.

I'm by no means saying he's the best in the game, at no point have I said this. He is a master of challenges though and could certainly kill Vulcan. Everybody struggles against a buffed belakor.

Well, if you interpret his rules a certain way, he ignores the WS1 on a 3+. Then he would be hitting on 4s so he would hit 3 times wounding on 2s rerolling so all wound, it takes 2 rounds for Be'lakor to take a wound and he will eventually fail the Grimiore and get cut up by Horus.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Well, if you interpret his rules a certain way, he ignores the WS1 on a 3+. Then he would be hitting on 4s so he would hit 3 times wounding on 2s rerolling so all wound, it takes 2 rounds for Be'lakor to take a wound and he will eventually fail the Grimiore and get cut up by Horus.

Still, 5++ when he fails, 2++ otherwise, always wounding 5/6 of the time, hitting 5/6 the time at first and never worse than 1/2 the time. Horus starts only hitting 1/3 the time. Depending on when the Grimorie fails you, it could work... It's all about timing, and most of it you can't control.

I agree on there being some grey on Horus stats being modified, but if you're telling me I have to challenge Horus with something I take on a normal list, that's the strongest CC stick I can bring other than Black Mace and pray for a 6 or something like that.

There's no grey, almost everybody agrees that invisibility doesn't work on Horus. He suffers the same restrictions as everybody else for shooting, when he reaches cc and he is looking at having his stats reduced then he does get his 3+ save.

What kind of shooting does Horus have?

BaconUprising wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
What's Vulcan's Str? Now subtract 1. Now tell me what his weapon does. Models have stats, weapons have stats. They are separate. DS will not affect Vulcan's hits. Go ahead and ask this on YMTC. If it says "strikes at -1 WS and S" you'd have a case. It doesn't.

Also someone like Belakor, if you boost him with Grimorie would have a chance. Imagine an invisible, 2+ save, Belakor. It would take some synergy, and isn't a fair fight, but 1 herald boosting Belakor would be close on points and could do it. Belakors got a very high WS, fleshbane, master crafted, high I, lots of attacks, and Horus is WS1 against him.

I'm by no means saying he's the best in the game, at no point have I said this. He is a master of challenges though and could certainly kill Vulcan. Everybody struggles against a buffed belakor.

Assuming no Grimour because they are already similar pointed, I'd like to see a battle between a buffed Swarmlord (Warp Speed and Endurance) and a Buffed Be'Lakor (only using buffs he himself can grant, no Grimour and no Fate re-roll). Be'Lakor would have a harder time with his powers due to SitW while Swarmy's buffs are all but assured if he rolls them. Then it would factor down to Be'Lakor wounding on 2's and higher base attacks compared to Swarmy's better defence with 4++ and FnP as well as forcing r-rolls on invuls.

I have re-enacted the battle Between Horus and a Iron Armed/Enduranced Swarmy a few times and Swarmy won 6 out of 8 times. It really came down to how reliable the Swarmy was when hitting (hitting on 3's re-rolling 1's) and wounding while Horus was a lot more about luck. At times he would get 5 hits, others he would get only 2 and have trouble wounding on 5's/6's. Add that to the fact the Swarmy had great defence with FnP on top of his 4++ making getting the few wounds Horus did cause to stick a real chore, most of the time Horus only caused 1/2 wounds in the entire battle. I did all these fights using just the claw because that was what everyone was going on about, it might be different if he mixed and matched his attacks. The only times Horus won was when the Swarmy couldn't pass a psychic test for his life or rolled low on Iron Arm every time. Not saying this is anything you anecdotal proof, but it tells me that if there was a fight between the two I know who I'd put my money on.

BaconUprising wrote:
There's no grey, almost everybody agrees that invisibility doesn't work on Horus. He suffers the same restrictions as everybody else for shooting, when he reaches cc and he is looking at having his stats reduced then he does get his 3+ save.

Well what does invisibility actually say. If it says strikes at or treats as definitely still works. We have overwatch and skyfire with the same wording. If it says "becomes" or "changes", then yeah, he has a chance to cancel it. If there's an FAQ, go with that.

Invisibility:
"Models attacking (or being attacked by) invisible models in close combat count as WS1. Blows made by or against non-invisible models in the same combat are resolved normally"

Snap shots:
"If a model is forced to make snap shots rather than shoot normally then its BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"

Other psychic powers phrasing that might bear relevance:
Acquiescence :
"the target unit surffers a -5 penalty to its Initiative"
Enfeeble:
"the target unit suffers a -1 penalty to both Strength and Toughness"

There are a couple of interesting things to note:
1. Is 'counts as' when applied to the resolution of a specific action (e.g. shooting, striking in combat) something that triggers modification of stats. Or are the stats themselves unchanged, it is just that it is resolved at a different value.
2. Does horus get a 3+ chance to fire snap shots at a flier on full BS? No since having to fire snap shots isn't an effect, it's just a rule. Or yes, because 'hard to hit' is a special rule that has an effect that makes him BS1.

Well his armor negates any psychic powers on 3+ anyway.

It doesnt negate any psychic powers. It negates attacks and negative modifiers.