Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Besides the Forgeworld Daemon Lords.
The one contender is Angron who gets beaten bloody by Horus with his 5 S:10 AP:2 Concussive hits.

How about a best case scenario Swarmlord with 2 Lash Guard? Best Case meaning both Iron Arm and Warp Speed. Not knowing Horus' actual rules I couldn't know for sure, but in 'normal' 40k a best case scenario Swarmlord is the scariest thing that is out there. Apart from him I assume a transcendent C'Tan could pull it off through D-Weapon spam (Primarch's don't have any special protection right?) or any model who can pull strength D outta their asses. Other then that, any old Necron Overlord with Mindshackle Scarabs if Horus is having a particularly unlucky day.

Edit. A 30k Legion Moritat would do an admirable job with duel plasma pistols, the question is can Horus take more plasma shots then he can roll a 2+?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
How about a best case scenario Swarmlord with 2 Lash Guard?

Lash Guard have very little effect since they can't participate in a challenge (there is still a slim hope that they can finish the character off after swarmy dies). I'm guessing horus beats swarmy but you are right about anything with a titan closecombat weapon (especially the tyranid biotitans) crushing horus. But it's not really a very fair fight at that point.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
How about a best case scenario Swarmlord with 2 Lash Guard? Best Case meaning both Iron Arm and Warp Speed. Not knowing Horus' actual rules I couldn't know for sure, but in 'normal' 40k a best case scenario Swarmlord is the scariest thing that is out there. Apart from him I assume a transcendent C'Tan could pull it off through D-Weapon spam (Primarch's don't have any special protection right?) or any model who can pull strength D outta their asses. Other then that, any old Necron Overlord with Mindshackle Scarabs if Horus is having a particularly unlucky day.

Edit. A 30k Legion Moritat would do an admirable job with duel plasma pistols, the question is can Horus take more plasma shots then he can roll a 2+?

6s across the board with strength 7, and Weapons skill 8, all with a 3++.
With a 2+ DTW, D3 additional attacks against enemies with WS4 or less, and a one use Strength 10, AP:1, MC, lance, large blast.

I don't know enough about the Swarmlord to say for sure, but I imagine Horus would win that exchange quite handily. Unless the Swarmlord gets a good Iron Arm roll, Horus is probably better off going with the Warmaaster's Talon for the first Assault Phase - that allows him to strike at initiative, still wound easily thanks to shred - unless the Swarmlord gets a big toughness bonus as mentioned - and then cut into the Swarmlord's profile with a crippling blow. Would be funny to have the big beastie struggling to wound him due to strength penalties! Once the Swarmlord is sufficiently crippled, Horus can use Worldbreaker to strike the killing blow. I'm guessing he'd hit on 3s and wound on 2s or 3s depending on Iron Arm, with 5 attacks. Defensively Eternal Warrior and T6 with a 3++ should keep him relatively safe, I'd imagine.

For the points he costs, I imagine only another Primarch has any hope of besting him, and even that is a stretch - it does depend though, Horus could definitely die quite easily to some cheaper shooting units if he's not lucky with his 3++, but his precision bombardment and super-bolter make him pretty decent at shooting as well - a Moriat would die well before he got into range, or if deep striking, Horus could also choose to deep strike 18.5" away with zero scatter and then maul if not kill the Moriat with his bolter. If Angron got the charge, 7 S8 attacks hitting on threes, rerolling, and wounding on twos at a higher initative than Horus would definitely do some heavy damage, but against a 3++ it isn't enough to kill Horus by any stretch and the return is going to mutilate him, he's unlikely to stop the -1 S from the Warmaster's Talon and at than point he's wounding on 4+ as opposed to 2+, not rerolling to hit, and taking a lot of wounds with only a 4++ to save him. Fulgrim might fair better with 8 attacks on the charge, still hitting on threes, but he can't reroll to hit and only wounds Horus on a 4+. He is more durable, however, with a 3++. Mortarion is more of an all-rounder, but simply doesn't have the offensive edge to kill Horus despite his toughness. He would. however, probably do a pretty great job of tarpitting Horus, who can only wounds on a 4+ unless he uses Worldbreaker and has to sturggle through a whopping 7 wounds and a 4++.

Of the Primarchs in the second book, only Lorgar Transfigured stands out. IF he could get past Horus' exceptional psychic defenses somehow, he would definitely do some significant damage while taking little in return - but if Horus successfully deflected his attempts, he would lose horribly, being the weakest Primarch in single combat otherwise. It would definitely be an exciting duel, possibly coming down to whether or not Horus could resist the effects of Invisibility.

Do understand I am talking about a best case scenario Swarmlord, which is unlikely to happen as he will rarely get all the powers he needs, but these powers would include Warp Speed, Iron Arm, Invisibility and Endurance. Assuming no charge bonuses and the Swarmlord gets off the power/s he wants (Toss up between Invisibility and Iron/Speed) then it would be a far fight. Swarmlord would have the stat bonus, but Horus can lower those stats. Both are good offensively but Swarmy is better defensively (I believe a 4+ is better then a 3+ forced to re-roll) so it will all really come down to the Swarmlords buffs. For example if The Swarmlord has + 3 on both Iron Arm and Warp Speed he deals 3 wounds to Horus while Horus deals 1-2 wounds back with claw or 1-2 back with mace. From there its a fair fight.

A fully buffed Swarmlord, no matter how rare he is, is easily the most powerful close combat unit in standard 40k (Baring new and stupid titans and stuff.

3++ rerolled is indeed worse than 4++ but not massively.
3++ = 4/6 pass, rerolling = 1/3 of those fail = 2.666 pass So 2.66 / 6 makes it almost halfway between a 4++ and a 5++ (closer to a 4++)

(my money would probably still be on swarmy though)

wtnind wrote:
3++ rerolled is indeed worse than 4++ but not massively.
3++ = 4/6 pass, rerolling = 1/3 of those fail = 2.666 pass So 2.66 / 6 makes it almost halfway between a 4++ and a 5++ (closer to a 4++)

(my money would probably still be on swarmy though)

Horus is statistically superior with his 4+ It Will Not Die!, 6 wounds, S:10 AP:2 Concussive Maul, and AP:2 lightning claw that reduces S & WS by 1 for every unsaved wound it inflicts.
I really doubt it.

Why not just shoot the guy? I mean, really.

Forgot to factor IWND, but I am confused as what grants Horus a 4+ IWND over the standard 5+. This is probably the problem with using your main source of rules for him being 1d4chan

So to be fair it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Swarmlord beating some of the Primarchs, maybe even Horus when he is buffed out to max. When buffed up the stat-line falls into the Swarmlords favour, with higher WS, T, Base S and matching him in Attacks. Swarmlord could also have access to IWND and FnP through Endurance so it's less of an uphill battle then you'd like to imagine between a 200pt model and a 500pt one. Horus wins out in base wounds, but forcing re-rolls on invuls is a big thing especially if the Swarmlord used Endurance over Warp Speed to have a 4++/5+++ (FNP)/5++++ (IWND) against Horus' 3++ forced to re-roll/5++++.

Aside from that, Mindshackle Scarabs can pull a number on him like anyone else if he can't pass his LDship test but now we are on to even more unlikely things. For example any old Haemonculi could take him out on the charge if he was in front of the charging squad by forcing a wall of death of shattershard tests, or Asurman could do it with his Dire Sword. But as said, these are getting more unlikely by the second.

A buffed Swarmlord with a bit of luck could really do well against Horus but I would still put my money on Horus to win with his Talons making the Swarmlord weaker and the Hammer keeping the Swarmlord around I1 with Concussive.

But even against a buffed Swarmlord other Primarchs would probably beat him even more soundly. Ferrus Manus would probably beat a Swarmlord with his S10 AP1 hammer that swings at I5 and has concussive and Strike Down so even if Ferrus doesn't score a wound, he halves the Swarmlords initiative.

Invisibility only has a 33% chance to work against Horus, so even best-case scenario Swarmlord needs some (more) luck on his side to potentially overcome the massive damage Horus' weapons can inflict. I think the best bet might actually be Lorgar transfigured getting off Terrify, Invisibility, etc. and hoping the intial charge will break Horus and he can then try to sweeping advance Horus after 1 round of combat.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Forgot to factor IWND, but I am confused as what grants Horus a 4+ IWND over the standard 5+. This is probably the problem with using your main source of rules for him being 1d4chan

So to be fair it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Swarmlord beating some of the Primarchs, maybe even Horus when he is buffed out to max. When buffed up the stat-line falls into the Swarmlords favour, with higher WS, T, Base S and matching him in Attacks. Swarmlord could also have access to IWND and FnP through Endurance so it's less of an uphill battle then you'd like to imagine between a 200pt model and a 500pt one. Horus wins out in base wounds, but forcing re-rolls on invuls is a big thing especially if the Swarmlord used Endurance over Warp Speed to have a 4++/5+++ (FNP)/5++++ (IWND) against Horus' 3++ forced to re-roll/5++++.

Aside from that, Mindshackle Scarabs can pull a number on him like anyone else if he can't pass his LDship test but now we are on to even more unlikely things. For example any old Haemonculi could take him out on the charge if he was in front of the charging squad by forcing a wall of death of shattershard tests, or Asurman could do it with his Dire Sword. But as said, these are getting more unlikely by the second.

The main source is HH Betrayal where it specifically lists under the Primarch rule (near the FOC section) that they get a 4+ IWND.
Horus could just put the Swarmlord at (statistical average) -2 S & WS with the initial exchange and then lord over him while he fails to hit and wound.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Forgot to factor IWND, but I am confused as what grants Horus a 4+ IWND over the standard 5+. This is probably the problem with using your main source of rules for him being 1d4chan

So to be fair it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Swarmlord beating some of the Primarchs, maybe even Horus when he is buffed out to max. When buffed up the stat-line falls into the Swarmlords favour, with higher WS, T, Base S and matching him in Attacks. Swarmlord could also have access to IWND and FnP through Endurance so it's less of an uphill battle then you'd like to imagine between a 200pt model and a 500pt one. Horus wins out in base wounds, but forcing re-rolls on invuls is a big thing especially if the Swarmlord used Endurance over Warp Speed to have a 4++/5+++ (FNP)/5++++ (IWND) against Horus' 3++ forced to re-roll/5++++.

Aside from that, Mindshackle Scarabs can pull a number on him like anyone else if he can't pass his LDship test but now we are on to even more unlikely things. For example any old Haemonculi could take him out on the charge if he was in front of the charging squad by forcing a wall of death of shattershard tests, or Asurman could do it with his Dire Sword. But as said, these are getting more unlikely by the second.

The main source is HH Betrayal where it specifically lists under the Primarch rule (near the FOC section) that they get a 4+ IWND.
Horus could just put the Swarmlord at (statistical average) -2 S & WS with the initial exchange and then lord over him while he fails to hit and wound.

Just checked the same page where it details what the Primarch rule bestows upon the model (pg.186), it nowhere states that it gives a 4+ IWND to Primarch models, only that they gain the IWND rule.

 Grimskul wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Forgot to factor IWND, but I am confused as what grants Horus a 4+ IWND over the standard 5+. This is probably the problem with using your main source of rules for him being 1d4chan

So to be fair it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Swarmlord beating some of the Primarchs, maybe even Horus when he is buffed out to max. When buffed up the stat-line falls into the Swarmlords favour, with higher WS, T, Base S and matching him in Attacks. Swarmlord could also have access to IWND and FnP through Endurance so it's less of an uphill battle then you'd like to imagine between a 200pt model and a 500pt one. Horus wins out in base wounds, but forcing re-rolls on invuls is a big thing especially if the Swarmlord used Endurance over Warp Speed to have a 4++/5+++ (FNP)/5++++ (IWND) against Horus' 3++ forced to re-roll/5++++.

Aside from that, Mindshackle Scarabs can pull a number on him like anyone else if he can't pass his LDship test but now we are on to even more unlikely things. For example any old Haemonculi could take him out on the charge if he was in front of the charging squad by forcing a wall of death of shattershard tests, or Asurman could do it with his Dire Sword. But as said, these are getting more unlikely by the second.

The main source is HH Betrayal where it specifically lists under the Primarch rule (near the FOC section) that they get a 4+ IWND.
Horus could just put the Swarmlord at (statistical average) -2 S & WS with the initial exchange and then lord over him while he fails to hit and wound.

Just checked the same page where it details what the Primarch rule bestows upon the model (pg.186), it nowhere states that it gives a 4+ IWND to Primarch models, only that they gain the IWND rule.

My mistake. Doing this from memory.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Forgot to factor IWND, but I am confused as what grants Horus a 4+ IWND over the standard 5+. This is probably the problem with using your main source of rules for him being 1d4chan

So to be fair it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Swarmlord beating some of the Primarchs, maybe even Horus when he is buffed out to max. When buffed up the stat-line falls into the Swarmlords favour, with higher WS, T, Base S and matching him in Attacks. Swarmlord could also have access to IWND and FnP through Endurance so it's less of an uphill battle then you'd like to imagine between a 200pt model and a 500pt one. Horus wins out in base wounds, but forcing re-rolls on invuls is a big thing especially if the Swarmlord used Endurance over Warp Speed to have a 4++/5+++ (FNP)/5++++ (IWND) against Horus' 3++ forced to re-roll/5++++.

Aside from that, Mindshackle Scarabs can pull a number on him like anyone else if he can't pass his LDship test but now we are on to even more unlikely things. For example any old Haemonculi could take him out on the charge if he was in front of the charging squad by forcing a wall of death of shattershard tests, or Asurman could do it with his Dire Sword. But as said, these are getting more unlikely by the second.

The main source is HH Betrayal where it specifically lists under the Primarch rule (near the FOC section) that they get a 4+ IWND.
Horus could just put the Swarmlord at (statistical average) -2 S & WS with the initial exchange and then lord over him while he fails to hit and wound.

Just checked the same page where it details what the Primarch rule bestows upon the model (pg.186), it nowhere states that it gives a 4+ IWND to Primarch models, only that they gain the IWND rule.

My mistake. Doing this from memory.

S'alright, just wanted to make sure people didn't get the wrong idea and think that the Primarchs were any more powerful than they already are. Don't want to make them feel overpowered

To anybody claiming Horus loses to any other Primarch I'm afraid you are incorrect. I've play tested him in a 1v1 against every other Primarch so far released and he utterly and I mean utterly butchers them, even Angron.
Just for anyone who cares the person who came closest to defeating him was actually Lorgar when buffed with his lv3 telepathy. Honestly it's the talon. Never ever use the world breaker in a 1v1, it's not worth it.

I'm pretty sure the Emperor beats Horus ;-P

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Forgot to factor IWND, but I am confused as what grants Horus a 4+ IWND over the standard 5+. This is probably the problem with using your main source of rules for him being 1d4chan

So to be fair it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination to imagine the Swarmlord beating some of the Primarchs, maybe even Horus when he is buffed out to max. When buffed up the stat-line falls into the Swarmlords favour, with higher WS, T, Base S and matching him in Attacks. Swarmlord could also have access to IWND and FnP through Endurance so it's less of an uphill battle then you'd like to imagine between a 200pt model and a 500pt one. Horus wins out in base wounds, but forcing re-rolls on invuls is a big thing especially if the Swarmlord used Endurance over Warp Speed to have a 4++/5+++ (FNP)/5++++ (IWND) against Horus' 3++ forced to re-roll/5++++.

Aside from that, Mindshackle Scarabs can pull a number on him like anyone else if he can't pass his LDship test but now we are on to even more unlikely things. For example any old Haemonculi could take him out on the charge if he was in front of the charging squad by forcing a wall of death of shattershard tests, or Asurman could do it with his Dire Sword. But as said, these are getting more unlikely by the second.

The main source is HH Betrayal where it specifically lists under the Primarch rule (near the FOC section) that they get a 4+ IWND.
Horus could just put the Swarmlord at (statistical average) -2 S & WS with the initial exchange and then lord over him while he fails to hit and wound.

Where are these 2 wounds coming from? Maybe against a base Swarmlord, but i have tried to make it clear that i know a base Swarmlord would lose and only a 'Best case scenario' Swarmlord can make this a contest. This means first turn will be Iron Arm and Endurance, assuming +2 from Iron arm. So that means Horus will be wounding on 6's with his claw or 2's with his mace. Either way he is hitting on 4's, so that's 3 hits and 3 wounds with mace, 1 wound after saves (4++ saves 1.5, FnP saves 0.5) with the Talon doing less then 1 wound (assuming 3 hits causes 1 wound, going through 4++ and 5+++ leaves it at under 0.5) while the Swarmy with preferred enemy is hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's with 4 attacks so 3ish hits causes 3ish wounds meaning after saves about 1.6 wounds go through or something. Both then could gains wounds back through out the fight so it would be hard to mathhammer how it would end up.The problem with the Claw is that the Swarmy is potentially rocking toughness 8/9 meaning getting those wounds through is a chore even with Shred, All the while hitting on 4's while the Swarmlord hits on 3's with re-rolls of 1s means the attack difference matters little when the Swarmlord could be rocking strength 8+ meaning he'd wound on 2's.

Now i totally understand all this is circumstancial of getting the right powers and managing to use them, but it should be abundantly clear very little stands up to a Primarch, with a best case scenario being one of them. Sorry if math is a bit off, i am very basic with math hammer where 3 wounds = 1 wound vs 3+ save which i know is a it off, but roughly correct.

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Invisibility only has a 33% chance to work against Horus,

Why is this the case when Invisiblity is a blessing that targets the caster?

90 shootaboyz. They cost even less.

Because Horus negates anything that modifies his stats on a 3+.

btw what's Horus's pointcost?

Fateweaver.

Flyrant.

Anything that can fly and shoot. Huehuehue

 Necrosis wrote:
Because Horus negates anything that modifies his stats on a 3+.

It doesn't modify his stats though, otherwise everyone could DtW against it. It only affects the caster, so why Horus would suddenly get to DtW is confusing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, bear in mind we're still missing several primarchs.

 McNinja wrote:

 Necrosis wrote:
Because Horus negates anything that modifies his stats on a 3+.

It doesn't modify his stats though, otherwise everyone could DtW against it. It only affects the caster, so why Horus would suddenly get to DtW is confusing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, bear in mind we're still missing several primarchs.

It does modify his stats while in combat to a 1. In which case his armour kicks in and on a 3+ he ignores the penalty (that being said anyone else in combat will not ignore the penalty). He's not deny the witch, he just ignoring it.

Also Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Endurance are all more useful then invisibility, because Horus Already hits on 4's. Hitting on 5's isn't a massive difference, it means 2 hits instead of 3. While Iron Arm forces him to use the Mace instead of the Claw because Horus would usually be wounding on 6's with the claw against T 8/9 Swarmlord, meaning much less wounds get through especially if he is rocking Endurance as well.

Something I am confused about is if Warp Speed will mitigate the effects of concussive because of the order in which they happen. Concussive says it reduces initiative to 1 until the next assault phase, but if the Swarmlord cast Warp Speed in his movement phase would the extra I be added to his I 1 to make him I 2/3/4? Because that would be the difference between striking before the World Breaker and at the same time.

 disdamn wrote:
I'm pretty sure the Emperor beats Horus ;-P

QFT

This has been math-hammered in 1-2 other threads. Swarmlord beats him more often than not.

There has to be a pretty even chance asurmen could manage it. All you need is horus to fail a leadership test and he is removed from the table.