Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Counts as isn't changing the stat, it changes the roll and what is taken. RAW, IMO, this certainly isn't targeting Horus and it's not actually changing his stats. He's choosing to roll attacks against a given unit. At any other target in the same turn/phase his WS is still 8 (or whatever it is normally). I don't see his ability doing anything to help him with invisibility.

Fragile wrote:
It doesnt negate any psychic powers. It negates attacks and negative modifiers.

Yes it negates any psychic attacks directed at him. And you can classify the ws 1 from invisibility as a negative modifier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:
Counts as isn't changing the stat, it changes the roll and what is taken. RAW, IMO, this certainly isn't targeting Horus and it's not actually changing his stats. He's choosing to roll attacks against a given unit. At any other target in the same turn/phase his WS is still 8 (or whatever it is normally). I don't see his ability doing anything to help him with invisibility.

Most people would disagree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the end it comes down to a matter of opinion until it is officially FAQ'd

BaconUprising wrote:

Most people would disagree with you.

On the end it comes down to a matter of opinion until it is officially FAQ'd

I'm fine with most people being wrong, cause they are. His stat isn't changed, no 3+. Just to see though, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/571043.page#6392130

I agree with him and unless you can come up with numbers, those 'most people' are pure speculation. Also is it a 3+ to stop psyker related negative modifiers, or would it work on the Swarmlord forcing re-rolls of successful Saves. Is forcing re-rolls a modifier in the first place?

Forcing rerolls is not an adverse modification of his person so no. I would argue wholeheartedly that being reduced to WS 1 is. If you are gong to get really technical you have no explored the possibility that wounds themselves can be quantified as an adverse modification and therefore he would receive 2 3+ saves against all wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speculation based on asking people I used to play with and users on dakka. But yes as I cannot come up with exact numbers by your criteria it is merely speculation. As is your theory.

His WS isn't modified. It's the same, to prove this the rule even tells you how to resolve other attacks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wounds aren't an effect, they're a game mechanic. However you'd have an actually better case making that argument than the invisibility one.

BaconUprising wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It doesnt negate any psychic powers. It negates attacks and negative modifiers.

Yes it negates any psychic attacks directed at him. And you can classify the ws 1 from invisibility as a negative modifier.

There is a difference between psychic powers and psychic attacks. And his WS is "counted as" therefore his stat did not change, but the roll he needs to hit does. Horus will be affected by Invis.

Agreed

He's affected, he doesn't get to negate it, as his characteristic is unchanged. If it was, then there would be no need for the phrase "counts as" as opposed to "is".

Hey, so I'm trying to start doing done research about a Sons of Horus or Luna Wolves list that would be lead by none other than Horus himself. I have a series of questions I'm hoping that could be answered. I really appreciate it.

Where can I find the official rules that are to be used for Horus?
Is there a Horus model? (Either GW or FW)
Where can I find the chaper tactics/rules for models specific to either Sons of Horus or Luna Wolves?
What is a list that you would suggest if you have one?

What I'm trying to go for is not necessarily an uber competitive list like Daemons (and I don't think that either of the lists are capable of doing as well as the top tier army's) but I'm interested in making an army that an still be a contender and that is lead by the biggest trater in 40k history. Thanks for the help!

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Hey, so I'm trying to start doing done research about a Sons of Horus or Luna Wolves list that would be lead by none other than Horus himself. I have a series of questions I'm hoping that could be answered. I really appreciate it.

Where can I find the official rules that are to be used for Horus? Pretty sure he is in the first Heresy Book
Is there a Horus model? (Either GW or FW) Not yet, but iirc, he is the next primarch to get a model, so I would say no more than 6 months is a reasonable guess, given their release rates
Where can I find the chaper tactics/rules for models specific to either Sons of Horus or Luna Wolves? Again, should be in HH book 1
What is a list that you would suggest if you have one?Don't play Heresy so I wouldn't know one

What I'm trying to go for is not necessarily an uber competitive list like Daemons (and I don't think that either of the lists are capable of doing as well as the top tier army's) but I'm interested in making an army that an still be a contender and that is lead by the biggest trater in 40k history. Thanks for the help!

 Lobukia wrote:
Agreed

He's affected, he doesn't get to negate it, as his characteristic is unchanged. If it was, then there would be no need for the phrase "counts as" as opposed to "is".

Maybe make a YMDC thread? but I recall seeing the 'counts as' vs 'is' argument happening there several times. Search the rulebook for instances of 'counts as'; there are a lot. If you try to make the claim that 'counts as' does not mean 'is' seems like you are really opening a can of worms.

To me it seems 'counts as in every way possible and for all purposes' is a truism. With the phrase 'counts as' we are not given any restrictions for when/what one thing is to be counted as another so it must be always for all things. Thus 'counts as' = 'is' as far as game rules are concerned.

The last thing I want is for someone to argue 'yah your predator *count as* stationary if it only pivots, but the rules state it can only fire all its weapons if it *is* stationary'

 Krellnus wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Hey, so I'm trying to start doing done research about a Sons of Horus or Luna Wolves list that would be lead by none other than Horus himself. I have a series of questions I'm hoping that could be answered. I really appreciate it.

Where can I find the official rules that are to be used for Horus? Pretty sure he is in the first Heresy Book
Is there a Horus model? (Either GW or FW) Not yet, but iirc, he is the next primarch to get a model, so I would say no more than 6 months is a reasonable guess, given their release rates
Where can I find the chaper tactics/rules for models specific to either Sons of Horus or Luna Wolves? Again, should be in HH book 1
What is a list that you would suggest if you have one?Don't play Heresy so I wouldn't know one

What I'm trying to go for is not necessarily an uber competitive list like Daemons (and I don't think that either of the lists are capable of doing as well as the top tier army's) but I'm interested in making an army that an still be a contender and that is lead by the biggest trater in 40k history. Thanks for the help!

Thanks, I really appreciate the help!

Chuck Norris could kick his butt. There was a wrestler here in the UK called Big Daddy in the 1980's and he had this move 'the belly flop' that would have totally mangled Horus.