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Haha, I play eldar too! Don't get me wrong I know my serpents would laugh at the banner - you have to pick your targets. What the dakka banner is good for is turning mediocre anti infantry into pretty decent anti infantry! So, hitting most footdar it'll do really well. If I was playing that list, my knights would go for things like reapers, and my meltas would go hunting tanks. I'm not saying I win every time! But I'm saying there is always a way! Haha

First, a disclaimer:

Play what you want to play, how you want to play it.

That being said; to compete with Dark Angels you've pretty much just got to embrace the rock paper scissors. Right now, your list is like, wet paper. Not gonna cut it.

You can certainly do the LRC rush. It has trouble against flier heavy and MC heavy; or of course anyone with enough melta. BUT; it can certainly blow away hordes and if you play carefully, you can effectively employ a board control/area denial strategy.

My favorite DA list? Black Knight/RWCS spam. It's actually a close combat list at heart; but obviously has good shooting as well with all the plasma. It looks something like this:

Sammael (Jetbike)
Librarian: BIke, ML1, PFG- 115

RWCS x5: Apothecary, RWCB- 245
RWCS x5: Apothecary- 230

RWAS x3- 80
RWAS x3- 80
RWAS x3- 80

Land Speeder: MM- 60
Land Speeder: MM- 60
Land Speeder: MM- 60

RWBK x5: Meltabombs, 1 RWGL- 215
RWBK x5: Meltabombs, 1 RWGL- 215
RWBK x5: 1 RWGL- 210

Total: 1850

Your troops are extremely weak so they're reserved and subsequently hidden until they need to gun for an objective. Other than that, your 25 black knights beat face; MM speeders are there in case you run into AV14. It's a glass cannon list, but it is fun to play. Just figured I'd add options.

Yeah, about the douche thing, you actually might want to argue a point instead being overprotective, white knight or whatever. in this game you've got to think and think critically. That's what the army list forum is for, right?

Also, the player asked for HELP not positive encouragement, I mean if the heavy bolter landspeeder is bad, it is just bad. And calling it bad, telling to stay the feth away from it is a way greater help(to me) than finding idiotic situations or excuses to use it.

Anyway,right now I've gotta bail, I'd be happy to respond to any more opinions of harsh love.

Oh, and if anyone wants to defend Dakka banner and how it just adds to the redundancy of bolters(especially with two fething whirlwinds, or black knights on the field) be my guest.

Why are you using veterans with Pistol+ Chainsword? Those units in a non- AV vehicle are just an awful combination.

vWreN wrote:
Yeah, about the douche thing, you actually might want to argue a point instead being overprotective, white knight or whatever. in this game you've got to think and think critically. That's what the army list forum is for, right?

Also, the player asked for HELP not positive encouragement, I mean if the heavy bolter landspeeder is bad, it is just bad. And calling it bad, telling to stay the feth away from it is a way greater help(to me) than finding idiotic situations or excuses to use it.

Anyway,right now I've gotta bail, I'd be happy to respond to any more opinions of harsh love.

Oh, and if anyone wants to defend Dakka banner and how it just adds to the redundancy of bolters(especially with two fething whirlwinds, or black knights on the field) be my guest.

I'm in utter agreement about heavy bolter speeders, in fact I was in agreement with pretty much everything you said, until you got about 4 lines from the end.

If you'd of bothered your arse to read all the thread, rather than 'I can't be bothered' you'd of seen that bolter speeders aren't being suggested. But to throw suggestions out after not bothering to read the thread, I guess you were kinda stabbing in the dark. It actually makes your post pretty null and void.

Lastly, the dakka banner, you are the ONLY person voting against it, doesn't that tell you something? It works, and is good, and for quite a measly amount of points it greatly increases the effectiveness of any RAS in range, by quite a substantial amount.

Anyone who is going to take full a RAS or two as their troops choices should always take that banner! Otherwise they can be out gunned by tac marines. In a RW list where model count is low, you need to get the most out of every single unit on the field, the dev banner is best for that.

For your info, I run a 2K RW list, I have 2 command squads of 5, 2 BK squads of 5, 2 full RAS with 2 melta guns, a MM on each attack bike and a TML on the speeders. Plus a shroud, Sammy and a Libby on a bike....pretty much the things YOU suggested, so in fact we actually have pretty similar ideas...apart from the banner! (I have it!)


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 sing your life wrote:
Why are you using veterans with Pistol+ Chainsword? Those units in a non- AV vehicle are just an awful combination.

those units are gone PLEASE read the full tread people!

The banner might be okay-ish in ravenwing exclusive setting, and even then it is doubtful, since the things you would normally shoot down with bolters are things that generally are glass cannon types, especially in todays shooting metagame, so it is much better to use the bikes speed to kill them in CC.

In a mixed setting, pretty much everything can outperform it. Well, aside from Vengeance, lol.

We will have to agree to disagree. I use it, I think it's epic, it ensures that I can shred infantry. I play against blood angels, tau, farsight, eldar, orks, guard and space wolves, it is so useful shredding their infantry units quickly, reducing them to elite units only. Perhaps farsight is the opponent it's least effective against, but it still helps. 4 shots in place of 1 is never a negative. And it's not that expensive really.

Yeah,sure, just in my book, if your bikes are standing, ever, it's a bloody waste. And is RCS that good? I'd rather use those points for black knights. or devastators. Or Vindicators, or whatever.

RCS Are black knights, but aren't on the FOC. And my bikes are never still, I always want that jink save!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, RCS means if you're clever enough you can have 5 units of knights....

Yeah, though it might sound nice, you will never be able to afford 5(lol) units of knights.

And since you always want that jink save the banner loses the best part of it's bonus. But yeah, going to bed now, it;s been an age old debate and always will remains such. Each to their own, anyway.

I JUST posted a list that does have five units of knights. Do you people READ?!!

I did read your list. It wasn't that great. Granted you had squeezed 5 units of knights in, but at what cost? 2 squads of 3 bikes as troops are never going to cut it, wether you hold them in reserve or not. It's just not good enough and will mean 99% or armies will obliterate your scoring units taking out your most effective way of gaining victory points. Also, speeders with multi-meltas are awful. As has been touched on repeatedly in this thread. AV 10 all round is too flimsy to risk getting that close.

As for the banner loses NO part of its ability if the bikes move? I don't know what on earth you are on about? I can only assume that as it means they are salvo weapons you are suggesting that moving means they only get the first profile. However, bikes have the relentless USR, and if you read the rule book on relentless related to salvo, it clearly states that the second profile is always used. This means the bikes ALWAYS count as stationary for the purposes of resolving shooting attacks, even if they moved.

Jesus this is hard work with you kids!

It was 3 squads of bikes. You can leave the suicide speeders at home if you want; but then you're putting meltaguns on your troop squads and having them do dirty work; the last thing they should be doing. They should be hiding.

Anyway; this whole conversation is a moot point. DA cannot compete in this meta. You can go LRC spam and hope to rock-paper-scissors people, or as I laid plain, hope to overwhelm them with a plasma volley and assault...both are incomplete.

At least my version can beat Wave Serpents.

Wasnt aware of the relentless, totally my bad. Does change things.A bit.

DA competing, well....I honestly think it just depends on the terrain. If not for the bloody things that take away cover saves....

What you do need,though is Drop-pods with libbies who force initiative tests. That's for damn sure.

Drop pod lists are nice, but they don't really work for dark angels. It depends on what you are going for. They're are never going to be super competitive in any form. But the games not always about being super competitive. It's about enjoying it and having fun too. I think ravenwing armies are fun. So much can balance on so little, and they can be fun games to play.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
It's taking shape - as long as it's stuff you like and things you want to play with. It's ashame the attack bikes have lost the meltas, those dudes excel at tank hunting, but I am also a melta fan. Any room for typhoons? Those missiles on speeders are really good? Though I'm sensing you're not sold on the idea? I also get the feeling you don't have any love for the knights? The dev banner with all those bikes will be awesome though!


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Also, if you're interested, I'm kit bashing a bike librarian over in the modelling section of the forum!

Linky

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571626.page#6406601

I'm not talking about a drop pod list, just a pod. Or just a librarian who can insta gib tides, crisis teams and such douchedickeries, probably via bike, DS or Pod.

vWreN wrote:
I'm not talking about a drop pod list, just a pod. Or just a librarian who can insta gib tides, crisis teams and such douchedickeries, probably via bike, DS or Pod.

Now you're totally talking my language! Libby's on bikes - love em!

Thanks for all the comments so far guys. This all is starting to make sense in my head now which is good!

Shingen wrote:
Thanks for all the comments so far guys. This all is starting to make sense in my head now which is good!

A lot of it does depend on what balance you're going for, just fun, super competitive, a middle ground of both?

I am really interested in this thread. So guys any ideas on a final list? Thanks.

What points limit bud?

If that's for me I would go with 1500 vs tau and GK

Ok, my primary opponent is Tau, and this is the 1500 point list I'm playing with, it needs a little work. I really want to squeeze in my librarian biker, but I really don't know where to drop the 85 points from... Here it is -

1500 Pts - Codex: Dark Angels Roster

Total Roster Cost: 1498

HQ: Sammael on Corvex (1#, 200 pts, Warlord)
1 Sammael on Corvex

: Ravenwing Command Squad (5#, 295 pts)
4 Ravenwing Command Squad
1 Ravenwing Apothecary
1 Standard of Devastation

Troops: Ravenwing Attack Squadron (8#, 321 pts)
1 Ravenwing Attack Squadron
5 Ravenwing Biker + Meltagun x2 + Ravenwing Sergeant
1 Ravenwing Sergeant + Upgrade to Veteran Sergeant
1 Ravenwing Attack Bike + Multi-melta
1 Land Speeder + Typhoon Missile Launcher

Troops: Ravenwing Attack Squadron (7#, 266 pts)
1 Ravenwing Attack Squadron
5 Ravenwing Biker + Meltagun x2 + Ravenwing Sergeant
1 Ravenwing Sergeant + Upgrade to Veteran Sergeant
1 Land Speeder + Typhoon Missile Launcher

Fast Attack: Ravenwing Black Knights (4#, 168 pts)
3 Ravenwing Black Knights
1 Ravenwing Huntmaster

Fast Attack: Ravenwing Black Knights (4#, 168 pts)
3 Ravenwing Black Knights
1 Ravenwing Huntmaster

Fast Attack: Ravenwing Darkshroud (1#, 80 pts)
1 Ravenwing Darkshroud

You could drop 1 black knight squad and make the other a bit bigger. Should have points for a Libby and another 1/2 knights.

I would be tempted to drop the vet sarge upgrades off the ravenwing bikes.

Yeah, and get a RW Champion. Simply because you get more Precision Shots that way, 2 Characters snipe more than 1 Trading Rending for AP3 is kinda meh, but ok too.

I didn't think you traded rending? I thought he kept his hammer too?