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champagne_socialist wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
My point is that you won't do that though, you'll get blown off the table posting up an idea while neat, at a point value that generally in not played competitively means very little. It is a decent 1k list. But it does not scale.

I disagree I believe the list is very strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Your list can be crushed with 300pts.

3x TFC.

Most competitive C:SM armies run 2x TFC all day. Tau SMS wreck the list (not to mention HYMP and markerlit Riptides), Eldar serpent spam massively outranges and outguns it, Daemons walk over it even when fielding non-competitive hordes and especially with Circus/Screamer/Hounds, IG can field far more firepower (and a pair of Eradicators will put a swift end to the list as well).

Your list is not competitive. It cannot outshoot the shooting army kings. If it works for you, great, but it won't stand up to a competent commander fielding most armies and in certain game modes (i.e. - the Relic, Purge the Alien) it simply crumbles. Don't ask such questions if you're just going to ignore the answers.

I am ignoring your answer because you are talking nonsense. The list is competitive, I know because I have used it. But keep dreaming that 300 pts can beat it hahah

This thread basically reads as....look at my great list it can beat anything no matter what...you disagree well then you are wrong. Lets put it this way my current daemon list does not worry about this list at all...it does worry about Tau and Eldar. The issue is that your shooting does not ignore cover, largely does not ignore armor, is mostly S4. Your toops won't really survive your transports being destroyed. If it works in your local meta....great. I don't think it holds up against top lists because things like Broadside teams will kill multiple chimeras each turn, Waveserpents will win the firefight against Chimeras as they will likely get side shots. Daemon Armies will just run this over with assaulty units because your shooting is largely not scarey.

Lets put it this way.

Based on your list you have 6 lascannons....average 3 hits, probably 3 wounds
12 Plasma guns= 6 hits likely 5 wounds
Flamers have no range
3 Plasma cannons average probably 4-5 wounds
Psykers about the 4 wounds ish
48 Storm bolter shots = 12 wounds per turn (before saves.)

Lets put it this way at 1k points with Daemons I can Field

Herald of TZ
32 Horrors
and 42 hounds.

This list will run your shooty list over turn 2, on average you kill ~10-12 hounds assuming the above and get hit with 30-32 assaulting you.. And when they do you lose quickly.

Obsidiankatana is right here, sorry.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

stop commenting on my thread, your answers are all pointless and sounds like a my dad is stronger than your dad answer.

the list you supplied was a poor list, get over it and go away.

I considered leaving at this, and letting you remain self-convinced. In the interest of one last attempt at pointing out the flaws in your list - here's a list I would field at 1000 points, assuming no knowledge of the enemy.

HQ
Kor'sarro Khan
-Bike

Troops
5x Bikes
-2x Grav
5x Bikes
-2x Grav
5x Bikes
-2x Melta
5x Bikes
-2x Melta

Heavy
TFC
TFC

Fast
Stormtalon
-Skyhammer

So, even assuming I would not field everything outside of 48'' and shell you with TFCs and the Stormtalon (I would, and you could do nothing about it), I could charge you with the bikes. Bikes with 4+ jinks and S5 Hammer of Wrath hits, which you would get precisely one turn of shooting against with all the 36'' weaponry assuming you get first turn. Move 12''. turbo 12''. Cover saves negate that lovely AP value of plasma. Next turn, 12'' move and charge. Game ends.

Cn you NOT READ!!!! the thread is a shooting match so why are you talking about charging and close combat???? If I wanted a thread about close combat i would include death cult assassins, also why are you including flyers??? the thread clearly says no flyers. Perhaps you should read the thread before you post, but better still stop posting on my thread because your contributions are rubbish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
My point is that you won't do that though, you'll get blown off the table posting up an idea while neat, at a point value that generally in not played competitively means very little. It is a decent 1k list. But it does not scale.

I disagree I believe the list is very strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Your list can be crushed with 300pts.

3x TFC.

Most competitive C:SM armies run 2x TFC all day. Tau SMS wreck the list (not to mention HYMP and markerlit Riptides), Eldar serpent spam massively outranges and outguns it, Daemons walk over it even when fielding non-competitive hordes and especially with Circus/Screamer/Hounds, IG can field far more firepower (and a pair of Eradicators will put a swift end to the list as well).

Your list is not competitive. It cannot outshoot the shooting army kings. If it works for you, great, but it won't stand up to a competent commander fielding most armies and in certain game modes (i.e. - the Relic, Purge the Alien) it simply crumbles. Don't ask such questions if you're just going to ignore the answers.

I am ignoring your answer because you are talking nonsense. The list is competitive, I know because I have used it. But keep dreaming that 300 pts can beat it hahah

This thread basically reads as....look at my great list it can beat anything no matter what...you disagree well then you are wrong. Lets put it this way my current daemon list does not worry about this list at all...it does worry about Tau and Eldar. The issue is that your shooting does not ignore cover, largely does not ignore armor, is mostly S4. Your toops won't really survive your transports being destroyed. If it works in your local meta....great. I don't think it holds up against top lists because things like Broadside teams will kill multiple chimeras each turn, Waveserpents will win the firefight against Chimeras as they will likely get side shots. Daemon Armies will just run this over with assaulty units because your shooting is largely not scarey.

Lets put it this way.

Based on your list you have 6 lascannons....average 3 hits, probably 3 wounds
12 Plasma guns= 6 hits likely 5 wounds
Flamers have no range
3 Plasma cannons average probably 4-5 wounds
Psykers about the 4 wounds ish
48 Storm bolter shots = 12 wounds per turn (before saves.)

Lets put it this way at 1k points with Daemons I can Field

Herald of TZ
32 Horrors
and 42 hounds.

This list will run your shooty list over turn 2, on average you kill ~10-12 hounds assuming the above and get hit with 30-32 assaulting you.. And when they do you lose quickly.

The flamers are inside a chimera so will be bombing down the field.....

I also have a hell rifle range 36 str 6
heavy bolter and multi laser on the chimera and i could easily change the multi melta servittors for plasma cannon servitors giving me 6 plasma caannons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Obsidiankatana is right here, sorry.

he's really not, he is talking about flyers and close combat and hammer of wrath when the thread specifically said no combat and no flyers lol, he (probably a she) needs to learn to read...

Tbf Inquisitorial henchmen have a very good chance of outshooting opponents point for point. But only if you include the cost effective units. That means no joekero, or servitors without an attached inquisitor. Also they will only really work when used in support of other armies if you are going for the shooting strategy.
3 chimeras equipped with 2 heavy bolters and psybolts with 3 plasma gunners each shooting from the hatch comes to only 321 pts. Not many armies can match that firepower for points.
For small arms 36 bolter equipped henchmen (also have ld8 over guardsmen) cost a measly 180pts. I can't think of any army that can put out that much st4 small arms fire for so little points.
70pts for a 4 shot st7 ap4 tl rending razorback is almost on par with an annihilation barge for points (although the anni barge does have its shields)
265pt crusader with multimelta and psybolts actually makes a raider worth investing in.
Whilst no army im aware of can get a st7 ap2 large blast for a mere 50pts (40pts and its still a mean hitting st 6 ap3) Hell for 30pts they get a whirlwind blast!
The Inquisitors themselves meanwhile help buff the rest of their army with the cheapest prescience in the game.
Using cheap plasma henchmen in chimeras and 2 inquisitors (1being coatez) I believe iv created the shootiest list ive ever thought up (its in the army list forum right now), allied with C:SM IF and DKoK. Basically because almost every unit ive picked is cheap, fragile, but puts out a megaton of dakka (apart from a punisher which definitely is not fragile).
And thats the main issue wih henchmen, whilst they may be able to afford the cheapest firepower around, they are oh so fragile! They are like the eldar of old - hardhitting papermashe. If you have lots of other dangerous, fragile but cheap units to draw the enemy fire you will overwhelm them with target priorities and those henchmen will stand a much higher chance of surviving long enough to cause some serious damage. If they do focus on the henchmen - no worries... you kept them cheap anyway!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could I just inquire what gender has to do with reading ability? Actually scrap that I will tell you:
I am a teacher and currently running a word count competition during form time - boys against girls. They have 2 reading form sessions a week and a reading lesson once a week in english. They return their books when finished to the school library and do a test on the book. If they get 70% they get the word count for that book.
In almost every form the girls are millions (litrally) of words ahead of the boys. So much so, to make the competition fair we have to start the word count from zero every half term.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Tbf Inquisitorial henchmen have a very good chance of outshooting opponents point for point. But only if you include the cost effective units. That means no joekero, or servitors without an attached inquisitor. Also they will only really work when used in support of other armies if you are going for the shooting strategy.
3 chimeras equipped with 2 heavy bolters and psybolts with 3 plasma gunners each shooting from the hatch comes to only 321 pts. Not many armies can match that firepower for points.
For small arms 36 bolter equipped henchmen (also have ld8 over guardsmen) cost a measly 180pts. I can't think of any army that can put out that much st4 small arms fire for so little points.
70pts for a 4 shot st7 ap4 tl rending razorback is almost on par with an annihilation barge for points (although the anni barge does have its shields)
265pt crusader with multimelta and psybolts actually makes a raider worth investing in.
Whilst no army im aware of can get a st7 ap2 large blast for a mere 50pts (40pts and its still a mean hitting st 6 ap3) Hell for 30pts they get a whirlwind blast!
The Inquisitors themselves meanwhile help buff the rest of their army with the cheapest prescience in the game.
Using cheap plasma henchmen in chimeras and 2 inquisitors (1being coatez) I believe iv created the shootiest list ive ever thought up (its in the army list forum right now), allied with C:SM IF and DKoK. Basically because almost every unit ive picked is cheap, fragile, but puts out a megaton of dakka (apart from a punisher which definitely is not fragile).
And thats the main issue wih henchmen, whilst they may be able to afford the cheapest firepower around, they are oh so fragile! They are like the eldar of old - hardhitting papermashe. If you have lots of other dangerous, fragile but cheap units to draw the enemy fire you will overwhelm them with target priorities and those henchmen will stand a much higher chance of surviving long enough to cause some serious damage. If they do focus on the henchmen - no worries... you kept them cheap anyway!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could I just inquire what gender has to do with reading ability? Actually scrap that I will tell you:
I am a teacher and currently running a word count competition during form time - boys against girls. They have 2 reading form sessions a week and a reading lesson once a week in english. They return their books when finished to the school library and do a test on the book. If they get 70% they get the word count for that book.
In almost every form the girls are millions (litrally) of words ahead of the boys. So much so, to make the competition fair we have to start the word count from zero every half term.

Thank you, these posts are very helpful rather than the posts other people have been posting where it turns into a bragging match of my army would beat your army ( or basically a my dad is stronger than your dad argument).

Ok but please don't bring gender into it. You could still look at their lists and consider how you would counter them though. I agree with your point that inquisitorial henchmen have the capacity to outshoot opponents in many situations but you also need to consider counterpoints even if they come across as harsh. Not trying to be harsh myself here just pointing out that it would be more constructive if you evaluated it on a list by list basis. Yes I agree that some of the posts could have been phrased in a less argumentative manner but it goes both ways. Unless directly looking for constructive criticism it is difficult to take when our personal list we think is fantastic basically gets described as pants by others but just let it be water off a ducks back if you dont agree with it.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok but please don't bring gender into it. You could still look at their lists and consider how you would counter them though. I agree with your point that inquisitorial henchmen have the capacity to outshoot opponents in many situations but you also need to consider counterpoints even if they come across as harsh. Not trying to be harsh myself here just pointing out that it would be more constructive if you evaluated it on a list by list basis. Yes I agree that some of the posts could have been phrased in a less argumentative manner but it goes both ways. Unless directly looking for constructive criticism it is difficult to take when our personal list we think is fantastic basically gets described as pants by others but just let it be water off a ducks back if you dont agree with it.

There were some lists that looked very good (the list with kroot) but it is easy to create a list when you know every unit your opponent will take and thus you can tailor a list to defeat it. If someone else posted the list I posted and I had to write a list to counter it then I would immediately choose SM or IG and pick loads of heavy bolters because they are 3 shots str 5 ap4 and henchemen for the majority have a 5+ save so would be killed very easily. But I would only take loads of HB if I knew the list and it's cheating to create a list knowing what your opponent will bring. If someone took loads of HB how does he know I won't bring dreadnoughts and chimeras and razerbacks and rhinos and have all my troops sitting inside vehicles which would be very tough for the HB to destroy (chimera's front armour is 12 so the HB can't even glance front armour).

The idea of this thread was to create debate about how good henchmen are at ranged attacks, it wasn't designed as an ego boost for low self esteem gamers who want to brag about how great their armies are on paper etc.

Apologies for thinking about a real-game scenario where assaults are a thing. If your opponents are obliging enough to not exploit a massive gape in your defenses, you're blessed in your gaming environment.

As for the flyer - freely sub it out for a pair of ML1 Inquisitors to prescience the TFCs.

Swap bikes for 5 man tac squads that, for all I care, can hide in a crater and do nothing all game. Give them lascannons if you must. Better yet, just take five man scout teams with missile launchers behind their own aegis for a better cover save than your army, give them all snipers so everything shoots 36''+ (outranging the majority of your army and matching all but the lascannons). HQ can be a MotF with a conversion beamer for another outranges-your-army large blast.

It is a hell of a lot easier to make a counter list once you've seen the opponents list thats true. Maybe next time if you want that form of discussuion, post theories rather than a whole or even part list, then nobody will be able to just try and counter the list and will instead be brought into the discussion you want :-).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obsidian, do you mind checking my list out on the armylist forum and giving it some constructive feedback and point out any weaknesses/counters? Ive had no replies and it involves part inquisitor list so is relevent to this. Mainly -do you think the inquisitorial aspect of the list adds to its effectiveness?
Its titled something along the lines of imperial fists, dkok and inquisition friends.
The point in the list is cheap yet fragile (I do consider 5 man devs fragile) msu list where each unit has considerable dakka for the points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ive also tried to put in counters for every scenario.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Apologies for thinking about a real-game scenario where assaults are a thing. If your opponents are obliging enough to not exploit a massive gape in your defenses, you're blessed in your gaming environment.

As for the flyer - freely sub it out for a pair of ML1 Inquisitors to prescience the TFCs.

Swap bikes for 5 man tac squads that, for all I care, can hide in a crater and do nothing all game. Give them lascannons if you must. Better yet, just take five man scout teams with missile launchers behind their own aegis for a better cover save than your army, give them all snipers so everything shoots 36''+ (outranging the majority of your army and matching all but the lascannons). HQ can be a MotF with a conversion beamer for another outranges-your-army large blast.

once again the point of this thread was about how good they are at shooting, if I want close combat henchmen i would choose death cult assassins who are 15 pts each ws 5 init 6 4 atttacks on the charge either at str 4 ap 3 (sword) or str 5 ap2 (axe) or str 6 ap 4 (maul) or str 5 ap 3 (lance) and death cult assassins each can choose 2 of those weapons.


It is not about opponents not being clever enough to charge, that is not the point of the thread. erhaps you should stop commenting on this thread, that is my advice.

champagne_socialist wrote:
once again the point of this thread was about how good they are at shooting, if I want close combat henchmen i would choose death cult assassins who are 15 pts each ws 5 init 6 4 atttacks on the charge either at str 4 ap 3 (sword) or str 5 ap2 (axe) or str 6 ap 4 (maul) or str 5 ap 3 (lance) and death cult assassins each can choose 2 of those weapons.

And the point is they aren't, they have limited range, no durability and can't even move and shoot enough to stay out of combat, all in all they do not have the makings of a good shooting army against all but the least competent opponents.

champagne_socialist wrote:
It is not about opponents not being clever enough to charge, that is not the point of the thread. erhaps you should stop commenting on this thread, that is my advice.

No, you asked if your list could stand up to the best of the best in shooting and when presented with evidence that it cannot, you claim we are tailoring against you, stick your fingers in your ears and go lalala. If you cannot handle criticism, a forum is 't the place for you.

 Krellnus wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
once again the point of this thread was about how good they are at shooting, if I want close combat henchmen i would choose death cult assassins who are 15 pts each ws 5 init 6 4 atttacks on the charge either at str 4 ap 3 (sword) or str 5 ap2 (axe) or str 6 ap 4 (maul) or str 5 ap 3 (lance) and death cult assassins each can choose 2 of those weapons.

And the point is they aren't, they have limited range, no durability and can't even move and shoot enough to stay out of combat, all in all they do not have the makings of a good shooting army against all but the least competent opponents.

champagne_socialist wrote:
It is not about opponents not being clever enough to charge, that is not the point of the thread. erhaps you should stop commenting on this thread, that is my advice.

No, you asked if your list could stand up to the best of the best in shooting and when presented with evidence that it cannot, you claim we are tailoring against you, stick your fingers in your ears and go lalala. If you cannot handle criticism, a forum is 't the place for you.

But I could level the same accusation at you when I say my list could stand up to your list I could say that you are sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming lalalala.

You keep saying limited range but i could mke an inquisitorial henchmen list with loads of long ranged weapns eg lascnnons, plasma cannons, psykers blasts etc etc

I stiill don't understand why you are still commenting on my thread? you disagree with me that henchmen are a good shooting list so why don't you just go away and stop commenting. You disagree with me and I disagree with you so why do you keep posting the same nonsense on my thread?

champagne_socialist wrote:
1000 points

HQ
coteaz= 100 pts

inquisitor with hell rifle (str 6 ap3 36' range sniper) = 40 pts

troops
12 henchmen
12 warrior acoloytes with 9 storm bolters and 3 plasm guns =105 pts

12 henchemen
12 warrior acoloytes with 9 storm bolters and 3 plasm guns =105 pts

12 henchemen
3 jokaero's, 3 warrior acoloytes with plasma guns, 3 servitors with plasma cannons, 3 imperial psykers = 237 pts


12 henchemen
3 jokaero's, 3 warrior acoloytes with plasma guns, 3 servitors with plasma cannons, 3 imperial psykers = 237 pts

henchemen
7 warrior acolytes with 3 flamers and 4 storm bolters
chimera tank with heavy bolter and multi laser

aegis defence line = 50 points

999 points

Too many toys, not enough boys. The whole point of Inquisition forces is cheap bodies with decent firepower. By loading them down with unnecessary gear, you're running counter to that philosophy. Additionally, you're making some key errors in force distribution, which is further hurting your effectiveness and effectively wasting points.

To start with, storm bolters are probably overly extravagant for a gunline. You're spending 50% more points per warrior acolyte for one extra shot at over 12", and no gain at all inside that range. These guys are T 3, BS 3, SV 5+ expendable nobodies who won't survive any half-hearted attack. Stick with regular boltguns and put more bodies on the field instead. Similarly, ditch the special weapons, they're outrageously expensive and wholly unnecessary if you're taking servitors or jokaero.

Speaking of jokaero, most people will tell you they're not worth it. They are extremely expensive and even more hopeless in close combat than warrior acolytes. Having said that, they do provide heavy firepower and unit buffs, but only if deployed in pairs. If you insist on fielding space apes, buy them two to a squad only, no more and no less. Taking three or more risks running the Jokaero Ingenuity buffs off the table, wasting half the point of bringing the things. Taking two almost guarantees getting at least one useful buff, and a small chance of getting two.

Servitors can bring cheap heavy firepower, but tie your Inquisitor to that squad until they're all dead. Leave the plasma cannon at home, stick with heavy bolters and multi-meltas if you're going this route. There's no gain in cooking your own guys, and small blast templates rarely catch more than one model if properly spaced. Being able to fire on the move or on overwatch is also a bonus.

Finally, psykers are godawful. The way Psychic Barrage is written, each psyker is essentially one more wound for the gestalt psychic entity, except that Psychic Barrage actually become more and more feeble as they take casualties. Also, LD 8 is absolute crap for reliability. Finally, also unlike any other psychic unit, one single Perils attack kills every psyker in the unit outright. Leave these guys at home with the plasma cannons.

In conclusion, drop the underperforming units and wargear, reorganize your squads for better synergy, and spend the points saved on allies, fliers, or tanks - Chimeras actually make serviceable bunkers with their five fire points if you have no other cover.

I disagree with the Psykers being crap. For 50 pts you can get a St 7 AP2 large blast with a 36 inch range. That's dirt cheap. So what if they perils, who cares? I ally with IG so most people are focused on my tanks and artillery. They get mini rage when these guys drop an AP2 piece of pie on their heads. Sure with Ld 8 and DTW they are not quite as reliable, but you are going to pass more often than not. Teamed up with Coteaz or another Inquisitor you can also have prescience or the power that ignores cover.

Poly Ranger wrote:
It is a hell of a lot easier to make a counter list once you've seen the opponents list thats true. Maybe next time if you want that form of discussuion, post theories rather than a whole or even part list, then nobody will be able to just try and counter the list and will instead be brought into the discussion you want :-).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obsidian, do you mind checking my list out on the armylist forum and giving it some constructive feedback and point out any weaknesses/counters? Ive had no replies and it involves part inquisitor list so is relevent to this. Mainly -do you think the inquisitorial aspect of the list adds to its effectiveness?
Its titled something along the lines of imperial fists, dkok and inquisition friends.
The point in the list is cheap yet fragile (I do consider 5 man devs fragile) msu list where each unit has considerable dakka for the points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ive also tried to put in counters for every scenario.

Did so.

champagne_socialist wrote:once again the point of this thread was about how good they are at shooting, if I want close combat henchmen i would choose death cult assassins who are 15 pts each ws 5 init 6 4 atttacks on the charge either at str 4 ap 3 (sword) or str 5 ap2 (axe) or str 6 ap 4 (maul) or str 5 ap 3 (lance) and death cult assassins each can choose 2 of those weapons.


It is not about opponents not being clever enough to charge, that is not the point of the thread. erhaps you should stop commenting on this thread, that is my advice.

You've been given shooting armies that can trounce this. You simply state that they can't win, despite evidence to the contrary. Disagreements are bound to occur in these forums - it's what breeds discussion, and while I've endeavored to be civil you've been anything but. I will continue to post, in the event that browsing forum-goers with similar questions to yours happen upon this thread seeking answers.

Now then - a C:SM list to outshoot the henchmen, once more assuming no knowledge of the henchmen list. With no fliers, and no intent to assault.

Chapter Tactics - Black Templars

HQ
MotF
-Conversion Beamer

Troops
Crusader Squad
-x5 Initiates, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Razorback (TL Lascannon)
Crusader Squad
-x5 Initiates, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Razorback (TL Lascannon)
Crusader Squad
-x5 Initiates, Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon, Razorback (TL Lascannon)

Heavy
TFC
TFC

Inquisitorial
Ordos Xenos Inquisitor
-Psyker ML1 (Prescience)
Ordos Xenos Inquisitor
-Psyker ML1 (Prescience)

Fortifications
Aegis

It is an interesting list, but with the amount of plasma you are going to hurt yourself, losing the trooper and the weapon. Also Ld 8 psykers are not relable, since rules like Shadow in the Wrap exsist. I don't really know much about Codex: Inquisition so I can't really make another comment.

And as for the list posted, they honestly did not seem tailored to you list, I have seen many like then (save the 3 riptides and kroot squads) posted on the forms and seeing as you have played with this list it would not be out of the realm of possibility to face a list like one of those from a local gamer. The reason things like combat and flyers come up is because the game does not exist in a vacuum and they will be things you face.

Lets do some mathhammer (assume the following units are shooting each other):

12 henchmen (9 storm bolters+3 plasma guns) = 105 pts
11 firewarriors (pulse rifles) = 99 pts

Storm bolter: 2 (shots)*0.5 (to hit)*0.67 (to wound)*0.5(to fail armor save) = 0.335 wounds
Plasma gun: 0.5*0.8 = 0.417 wounds
Pulse rifle: 0.5*0.87 = 0.417 wounds

Henchmen do 4.266 wounds to the firewarriors
Firewarriors do 4.587 wounds to the henchmen

The above is valid for no rapid-fire. Now, assuming that both sides move to try and get more damage, we have this breakdown:
1"-18": Henchmen do 5.517 wounds, Firewarriors do 9.174
18"-21": Henchmen do 4.266 wounds, Firewarriors do 9.174
21"-30" : Henchmen do 4.266 wounds, Firewarriors do 4.587
30"-36" Henchmen do 0 wounds, Firewarriors do 4.587

The takeaway here is that the henchmen units that you have kitted out will be outshot by a Tau firewarrior squad of slightly fewer points, in some cases taking almost twice as many wounds on average as their enemy. For a measly 9" (21-30) your firepower is roughly equal, but inside that you are taking twice the casualties and outside that you're not getting to shoot at all.
What hurts the henchmen most is their lack of a substantial armor save. Furthermore, Tau (and most other races) can bring firepower that either outranges you, does more damage than you, or is too durable for you to kill. Your opponent isn't just going to be packing firewarriors either - IG can easily bring 3 leman russes of any variant at 1000 points, Tau can and will bring a riptide or two. Henchmen can be a good shooting base, but they don't bring the right kind of firepower required to deal with some of the dedicated shooting armies out there.

For less than 1000 points, my Imperial Guard can bring three Manticores. That's a potential 9 Large Blasts hitting at S10 each turn with enough AP to destroy your units outright. Hidden in cover. Out of Line of Sight.

With the left over points, I can spam enough infantrymen to drown you in bodies too. Even a basic IG squad can get an Autocannon that outranges and outguns your list. In a blob, that's enough ACs to ruin your list from afar. So you brought some space apes with LCs? Cool. Enjoy marching them into LOS because my artillery is well-hidden.

The responses here have been very helpful yet you've persisted in ignoring their sound advice and act as a spoiled, bratty child. Your list isn't great; the advice is.

Creeperman wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
1000 points

HQ
coteaz= 100 pts

inquisitor with hell rifle (str 6 ap3 36' range sniper) = 40 pts

troops
12 henchmen
12 warrior acoloytes with 9 storm bolters and 3 plasm guns =105 pts

12 henchemen
12 warrior acoloytes with 9 storm bolters and 3 plasm guns =105 pts

12 henchemen
3 jokaero's, 3 warrior acoloytes with plasma guns, 3 servitors with plasma cannons, 3 imperial psykers = 237 pts


12 henchemen
3 jokaero's, 3 warrior acoloytes with plasma guns, 3 servitors with plasma cannons, 3 imperial psykers = 237 pts

henchemen
7 warrior acolytes with 3 flamers and 4 storm bolters
chimera tank with heavy bolter and multi laser

aegis defence line = 50 points

999 points

Too many toys, not enough boys. The whole point of Inquisition forces is cheap bodies with decent firepower. By loading them down with unnecessary gear, you're running counter to that philosophy. Additionally, you're making some key errors in force distribution, which is further hurting your effectiveness and effectively wasting points.

To start with, storm bolters are probably overly extravagant for a gunline. You're spending 50% more points per warrior acolyte for one extra shot at over 12", and no gain at all inside that range. These guys are T 3, BS 3, SV 5+ expendable nobodies who won't survive any half-hearted attack. Stick with regular boltguns and put more bodies on the field instead. Similarly, ditch the special weapons, they're outrageously expensive and wholly unnecessary if you're taking servitors or jokaero.

Speaking of jokaero, most people will tell you they're not worth it. They are extremely expensive and even more hopeless in close combat than warrior acolytes. Having said that, they do provide heavy firepower and unit buffs, but only if deployed in pairs. If you insist on fielding space apes, buy them two to a squad only, no more and no less. Taking three or more risks running the Jokaero Ingenuity buffs off the table, wasting half the point of bringing the things. Taking two almost guarantees getting at least one useful buff, and a small chance of getting two.

Servitors can bring cheap heavy firepower, but tie your Inquisitor to that squad until they're all dead. Leave the plasma cannon at home, stick with heavy bolters and multi-meltas if you're going this route. There's no gain in cooking your own guys, and small blast templates rarely catch more than one model if properly spaced. Being able to fire on the move or on overwatch is also a bonus.

Finally, psykers are godawful. The way Psychic Barrage is written, each psyker is essentially one more wound for the gestalt psychic entity, except that Psychic Barrage actually become more and more feeble as they take casualties. Also, LD 8 is absolute crap for reliability. Finally, also unlike any other psychic unit, one single Perils attack kills every psyker in the unit outright. Leave these guys at home with the plasma cannons.

In conclusion, drop the underperforming units and wargear, reorganize your squads for better synergy, and spend the points saved on allies, fliers, or tanks - Chimeras actually make serviceable bunkers with their five fire points if you have no other cover.

Interesting take on jokaero, I have had some success with 5 + coteaz + 5 bolter acolytes in chimera . Its ~350 points but has been pretty effective for me. Twin linked lascannons at range and heavy flamers up close. With the possibility that yoi roll ignores cover or reroll saves on coteaz. I also run 50 man guard blob with second inquisitor so he can swap out if he gets 4++.

On a seperate note you could probably stick all your chimeras under a skyshield and be immune to barrage right? At least until the vendettas / valkyries have hunted them down. Barrage always hits the top floor

 mr_bruno wrote:
For less than 1000 points, my Imperial Guard can bring three Manticores. That's a potential 9 Large Blasts hitting at S10 each turn with enough AP to destroy your units outright. Hidden in cover. Out of Line of Sight.

With the left over points, I can spam enough infantrymen to drown you in bodies too. Even a basic IG squad can get an Autocannon that outranges and outguns your list. In a blob, that's enough ACs to ruin your list from afar. So you brought some space apes with LCs? Cool. Enjoy marching them into LOS because my artillery is well-hidden.

The responses here have been very helpful yet you've persisted in ignoring their sound advice and act as a spoiled, bratty child. Your list isn't great; the advice is.

the responses haven't been helpful and yours is just as bad, your response along with the others is a 'my dad is stronger than your dad' response or a 'my penis is longer than your penis' response. In other words it has resorted to people bragging about thir armis.


I would also add that you tailord a list to face mine, henchmn are 5 points with a boltgun, 7 points with a stormbolter and they have the same stats as a guardsman but leadership 8. Lets see you try and outman a henchmen army haha




text removed.

Reds8n

Creeperman wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
1000 points

HQ
coteaz= 100 pts

inquisitor with hell rifle (str 6 ap3 36' range sniper) = 40 pts

troops
12 henchmen
12 warrior acoloytes with 9 storm bolters and 3 plasm guns =105 pts

12 henchemen
12 warrior acoloytes with 9 storm bolters and 3 plasm guns =105 pts

12 henchemen
3 jokaero's, 3 warrior acoloytes with plasma guns, 3 servitors with plasma cannons, 3 imperial psykers = 237 pts


12 henchemen
3 jokaero's, 3 warrior acoloytes with plasma guns, 3 servitors with plasma cannons, 3 imperial psykers = 237 pts

henchemen
7 warrior acolytes with 3 flamers and 4 storm bolters
chimera tank with heavy bolter and multi laser

aegis defence line = 50 points

999 points

Too many toys, not enough boys. The whole point of Inquisition forces is cheap bodies with decent firepower. By loading them down with unnecessary gear, you're running counter to that philosophy. Additionally, you're making some key errors in force distribution, which is further hurting your effectiveness and effectively wasting points.

To start with, storm bolters are probably overly extravagant for a gunline. You're spending 50% more points per warrior acolyte for one extra shot at over 12", and no gain at all inside that range. These guys are T 3, BS 3, SV 5+ expendable nobodies who won't survive any half-hearted attack. Stick with regular boltguns and put more bodies on the field instead. Similarly, ditch the special weapons, they're outrageously expensive and wholly unnecessary if you're taking servitors or jokaero.

Speaking of jokaero, most people will tell you they're not worth it. They are extremely expensive and even more hopeless in close combat than warrior acolytes. Having said that, they do provide heavy firepower and unit buffs, but only if deployed in pairs. If you insist on fielding space apes, buy them two to a squad only, no more and no less. Taking three or more risks running the Jokaero Ingenuity buffs off the table, wasting half the point of bringing the things. Taking two almost guarantees getting at least one useful buff, and a small chance of getting two.

Servitors can bring cheap heavy firepower, but tie your Inquisitor to that squad until they're all dead. Leave the plasma cannon at home, stick with heavy bolters and multi-meltas if you're going this route. There's no gain in cooking your own guys, and small blast templates rarely catch more than one model if properly spaced. Being able to fire on the move or on overwatch is also a bonus.

Finally, psykers are godawful. The way Psychic Barrage is written, each psyker is essentially one more wound for the gestalt psychic entity, except that Psychic Barrage actually become more and more feeble as they take casualties. Also, LD 8 is absolute crap for reliability. Finally, also unlike any other psychic unit, one single Perils attack kills every psyker in the unit outright. Leave these guys at home with the plasma cannons.

In conclusion, drop the underperforming units and wargear, reorganize your squads for better synergy, and spend the points saved on allies, fliers, or tanks - Chimeras actually make serviceable bunkers with their five fire points if you have no other cover.

Psykers test on ld 10 with an attached inquisitor. A st 8 ap1 large blast for 60pts is pretty snazzy tbf. Even at its lowest end the 7/12 chance of a st3 ap6 large blast for 10pts is a bargin! Psychic barrage is a very nice weapon if used correctly.

champagne_socialist wrote:
i been trying to create a list that could possiobly outshoot other armies.
....

could this list outshoot tau for eg? thanks

I believe the answer as you have seen is that this list will not outperform several archetypes of lists found in other codices.

So now the question becomes what can you do to alter your list and maximize its effectiveness? I've seen answers such as adding Chimeras to provide durability. You could also ally in others to make it stronger.

At this point, a mono-codex build might not be strong enough. But if you believe in your list, field it and see what results you can produce. If it fails, then you know you have to tinker with it in order to make it work.

 WarOne wrote:

champagne_socialist wrote:
i been trying to create a list that could possiobly outshoot other armies.
....

could this list outshoot tau for eg? thanks

I believe the answer as you have seen is that this list will not outperform several archetypes of lists found in other codices.

So now the question becomes what can you do to alter your list and maximize its effectiveness? I've seen answers such as adding Chimeras to provide durability. You could also ally in others to make it stronger.

At this point, a mono-codex build might not be strong enough. But if you believe in your list, field it and see what results you can produce. If it fails, then you know you have to tinker with it in order to make it work.

the list itself I believe would outshoot or run most armies close, the issue is that people saw the list and tailered a list to beat it. Anyone can tailer a list to defeat another list so I have not taken those responses seriously.

What I would include more in the list are psykers who at 10 points can throw a 36' range str 3 ap 6 large blast each additional psyker adds +1 str and +1 ap so for 50pts you get a 36' range assault large blast str 7 ap 2. for 80 points it is str 10 ap 1.

This man has found the holy grail of lists... Relent and save your poor souls for theirs no hope ...


Troll thread ..... Everyone move along... Nothing to see here

No need to insult or be rude to other users.

Thank you

The issue is that no matter what someone writes up you say...you're tailoring,,, not fair.


When people quote math...you ignore it.

Proposing a shooting match is pointless because that is not a game of 40k.....But if you want just

You've also tailored your list for Shooting and then complain everytime someone Tailors a list to out shoot your...in your shooting match.

Your list is not among the best shooting lists...but you won't listen to reason....so...

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is that no matter what someone writes up you say...you're tailoring,,, not fair.


When people quote math...you ignore it.

Proposing a shooting match is pointless because that is not a game of 40k.....But if you want just

You've also tailored your list for Shooting and then complain everytime someone Tailors a list to out shoot your...in your shooting match.

Your list is not among the best shooting lists...but you won't listen to reason....so...

Because I don't care about any lists someone writes after they have seen my list lol I'm not going to take it seriously because they will write their list knowing what is in my list. Someone also said they would outman my list lol a henchmen with a boltgun is 5 points or storm bolter is 7 pts, try and outman a henchmen army lol I can get plasma cannons for 10 points lol and can have 3 of them in every squad.

But like I said I don't care about people's lists, this is not a 'my dad is stronger than your dad' argument. If you want to post a list post it in the army list section of the forum.

Ok so it appears you do not even understand how your own army works very well.

Plasma cannons are 20 points (including the guy), and only function well in squads with inquisitors....

Your BS is too low with no way (unless you spend more on psykers) of improving your accuracy, or ignoring cover.

Your models are not durable, so in an attrition war you will lose out.

I would argue (but not post lists)
That the following armies can outshoot you
Orks
Tau
Eldar
IG
Necrons


Essentially you seem to be trying to set up a scenario where no discussion can take place other than people agreeing with you.

Breng77 wrote:
Ok so it appears you do not even understand how your own army works very well.

Plasma cannons are 20 points (including the guy), and only function well in squads with inquisitors....

Your BS is too low with no way (unless you spend more on psykers) of improving your accuracy, or ignoring cover.

Your models are not durable, so in an attrition war you will lose out.

I would argue (but not post lists)
That the following armies can outshoot you
Orks
Tau
Eldar
IG
Necrons


Essentially you seem to be trying to set up a scenario where no discussion can take place other than people agreeing with you.

nope posts like this are ones that I was looking for rather than army lists. When I said PC were 10 pts I meant they cost 10 pts (as in the weapon).

You named armies that could outshoot me but you have never played against (I'm guessing) a henchmen army so all of your theories on how I would lose are based on nothing.

I do not believe I would be outshot and as I said previously I have won a tournament using a henchmen army.

champagne_socialist wrote:

Because I don't care about any lists someone writes after they have seen my list lol I'm not going to take it seriously because they will write their list knowing what is in my list. Someone also said they would outman my list lol a henchmen with a boltgun is 5 points or storm bolter is 7 pts, try and outman a henchmen army lol I can get plasma cannons for 10 points lol and can have 3 of them in every squad.

But like I said I don't care about people's lists, this is not a 'my dad is stronger than your dad' argument. If you want to post a list post it in the army list section of the forum.

champagne_socialist wrote:


go on then name a 1000 point tau/eldar/IG army that can beat the list easily?