Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The unit who has terrify cast upon it loses fearless for the duration of the spell. Iirc maledictions last till the next turn of the caster who coasted it. Since you loose fearless for a game turn there's no way to get it back till the effect wears off. YOUR TERRIFIED.

now I know about the synapse wording and no where does it say you are permanent fearless. However at the end of the spells full turn if your still in synapse you become fearless again and regroup. If not in synapse you will roll on the instinctive behavior chart.

Lungpickle wrote:
The unit who has terrify cast upon it loses fearless for the duration of the spell. Iirc maledictions last till the next turn of the caster who coasted it. Since you loose fearless for a game turn there's no way to get it back till the effect wears off. YOUR TERRIFIED.

now I know about the synapse wording and no where does it say you are permanent fearless. However at the end of the spells full turn if your still in synapse you become fearless again and regroup. If not in synapse you will roll on the instinctive behavior chart.

This has nothing to do with the discussion on hand. Of course Terrify makes you "lose" Fearless. It's not the Fearless part of Synapse that caused this argument

 grendel083 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
You DO NOT automatically regroup BEFORE moving.

Synapse, Codex: Tyranids wrote:before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups.

The rule seems to directly contradict your statement.
Can you prove that a unit can only ever regroup in the Movement Phase?
Because I can think of examples of rules allowing a unit to regroup in both the Shooting and Assault phase.

Hmmm. You are right. I've based my argument on the idea you are only given permission to regroup in the unit's movement phase. The BRB has a few examples where this is not the case. My argument is flawed.

But, the statement in the synapse rule doesn't say the unit regroups before it moves. It says if the unit is in range before it moves it gets to regroup as soon as it can regroup.

In my original stance incorrectly assumed it can only regroup in its own movement phase thus rendering an immediate regroup impossible. However since I was wrong about when a regroup can occur I will agree that it can occur at any time and thus can also be immediate.

 DJGietzen wrote:

But, the statement in the synapse rule doesn't say the unit regroups before it moves. It says if the unit is in range before it moves it gets to regroup as soon as it can regroup.

No it doesn't. There is absolutely no qualifier on it suggesting that you can only regroup at the nearest available time when you would normally regroup.

JPong wrote:
No it doesn't. There is absolutely no qualifier on it suggesting that you can only regroup at the nearest available time when you would normally regroup.

I already agree to that. What are you arguing against?

DJGietzen wrote:

JPong wrote:
No it doesn't. There is absolutely no qualifier on it suggesting that you can only regroup at the nearest available time when you would normally regroup.

I already agree to that. What are you arguing against?

JPong wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

But, the statement in the synapse rule doesn't say the unit regroups before it moves. It says if the unit is in range before it moves it gets to regroup as soon as it can regroup.

No it doesn't. There is absolutely no qualifier on it suggesting that you can only regroup at the nearest available time when you would normally regroup.

I bolded the phrase where (i believe) you dissagreed with that.

Also, you said "the statement in the synapse rule doesnt say the unit regroups before it moves"

If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit’s models is within a friendly Synapse Creature’s synapse rangebefore the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups .

But that is exactly what it says, so maybe you should read it over carefully.

Terrify makes it so you lose the benefits of Fearless, not lose the Fearless USR itself. Thus, you still have Fearless after Terrify, you just get no benefit from it. Thus, moving into or out of Synapse, or being in Synapse, or whatever, doesn't matter.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Terrify makes it so you lose the benefits of Fearless, not lose the Fearless USR itself. Thus, you still have Fearless after Terrify, you just get no benefit from it. Thus, moving into or out of Synapse, or being in Synapse, or whatever, doesn't matter.

Except that it does, because synapse doesnt just give fearless. It gives fearles AND makes it so if you are in synapse range you regroup before you move. So yes, fearless is taken out of effect, but the synapse isnt.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Please remove these scare quotes, .

Im sorry, I did not know they scare you. Would Parentheses work ?

Context of the rule shows that it is applied before the move of the movement phase. This is when the Regroup tests take place. In this case you automatically pass it.

As has been pointed out, you have to be falling back before you can pass this test with Synapse. If you immediately Regroup on failing a Morale test, then you will never have the chance to be falling back.

You are "falling back" as soon as you fail the morale test. So yes you get a chance to be falling back. You just dont get a chance to make a falling back move.

That is where you fail the order of operations

( Fail Morale Check) -> (Immediately Fall Back move) -> (Falling back status -snapshots, morale tests..etc)

Your claim is that before you move you regroup

(Fail Morale Check) -> (Immediately Regroup)... You never make it to a Fall back Move since you regroup before you move, or falling back status, which is required in the Synapse Rule.

(Fail Morale Check) -> (Fall Back Move)-> (Fall back status) ->(Regroup at next Movement) is how it works.

 M0ff3l wrote:

DJGietzen wrote:

JPong wrote:
No it doesn't. There is absolutely no qualifier on it suggesting that you can only regroup at the nearest available time when you would normally regroup.

I already agree to that. What are you arguing against?

JPong wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

But, the statement in the synapse rule doesn't say the unit regroups before it moves. It says if the unit is in range before it moves it gets to regroup as soon as it can regroup.

No it doesn't. There is absolutely no qualifier on it suggesting that you can only regroup at the nearest available time when you would normally regroup.

I bolded the phrase where (i believe) you dissagreed with that.

Also, you said "the statement in the synapse rule doesnt say the unit regroups before it moves"

If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit’s models is within a friendly Synapse Creature’s synapse rangebefore the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups .

But that is exactly what it says, so maybe you should read it over carefully.

1) I was pointing out my initial point of contention was about how soon the unit can regroup. The concept that "it gets to regroup as soon as it can regroup" has stayed the same. My incorrect belief was that the game placed a restriction on what phase a unit can regroup in. No suck restriction exist so a unit can regroup as soon as it is afforded an opportunity. I'll concede the synapse rule affords such opportunity. No one, to my knowledge is suggesting the unit regroups before it can, or at some time later then as soon as it can.

2) The 'before the unit moves' and the 'automatic regroup' are not parts of the same clause within the statement. Observe
If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit’s models is within a friendly Synapse Creature’s synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups.
This clause can be removed from the sentence, leaving a complete working sentence behind. The condition of being withing range could be replaced with an entirely new condition having nothing to do with movement and it would not change the 1st clause.
If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit’s models is a character, the unit automatically Regroups.
The two parts of the same sentence have little to do with one another. If the game did have a restriction on when a unit can regroup, neither of these sentences would be sufficient to grant additional permission to regroup. Thankfully no such permission is required.

The regroup still must occur 'before the unit moves'.
If units can conceivably regroup at any time, could this not be interpreted as/played as 'if a unit with Synapse ends a move within Synapse range of a unit which is falling back, that unit automatically regroups..."?
Surely this is an incorrect interpretation, because you must at least be 'about to move' before the regroup can occur? Surely 'about to move' must be when the unit is 'activated' and 'about to move', rather than any nebulous time 'before' its next move. Not to say that the 'fall back move' isnt a 'move', just that there is at least *some* time constraint on when the regrouping must occur.



... personally HIWPI is that you make the fall back move then automatically rally as soon as you gain fearless again. I think that RAI the 'auto regroup' thing is just an accessory/consequence of the situation where a falling-back unit could gain fearless and not really intended to be a stand-alone rule. The rules designers just didn't think of the situation where the fearless portion of Synapse could be removed...

There is nothing RAW saying movement phase of the player.

It only states before the unit moves it regroups.

There are many ways to move outside of the movement phase, and it is possible to suffer the effect of 'fall back' during these non movement phase times.

If the people whom wrote the rules intended it to work only on movement that happens during the controlling players movement phase it would say only during movement, or before movement during owning players turn, etc.

It does not.

It says regroup before moving.

That means any fall back move, any time, it will regroup before the move portion of fall back.

Falling back movement is a move.

Fragile] wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Please remove these scare quotes, .

Im sorry, I did not know they scare you. Would Parentheses work ?

Context of the rule shows that it is applied before the move of the movement phase. This is when the Regroup tests take place. In this case you automatically pass it.

Incorrect. You can regroup outside of the movement phase. Trivial example - assaulting a falling back unit. Your "context" argument is void. Please retract it.

Fragile wrote:As has been pointed out, you have to be falling back before you can pass this test with Synapse. If you immediately Regroup on failing a Morale test, then you will never have the chance to be falling back.

Incorrect, as has been pointed out.

Once you fail a morale check you are falling back, the status. This means you will make a Fall back Move, AND you will snapshot, etc. There is nothing stating that a unit that regroups before it makes the fall back move was never in the Falling Back state. well, you have certainly not provided any such evidence.

Query: what happens if a Terrified unit within synapse loses assault (assuming they are not swept)? Would they stay in base contact, as they would not make a fall back move?

I don't remember fully right now, sad as that is, so I just have to ask a counter question:
Would they not consolidate as part of the regroup?

 Happyjew wrote:
Query: what happens if a Terrified unit within synapse loses assault (assuming they are not swept)? Would they stay in base contact, as they would not make a fall back move?

The unit regroups and stops falling back and can immediately move up to 3". This move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but Dangerous Terrain tests must be taken as normal. If the unit is out of coherency when it regroups then the 3" move must be used to restore coherency, or as near as possible. A model cannot end its movement within 1" of an enemy unit. At least, that's how I think I would play it.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Query: what happens if a Terrified unit within synapse loses assault (assuming they are not swept)? Would they stay in base contact, as they would not make a fall back move?

The unit regroups and stops falling back and can immediately move up to 3". This move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but Dangerous Terrain tests must be taken as normal. If the unit is out of coherency when it regroups then the 3" move must be used to restore coherency, or as near as possible. A model cannot end its movement within 1" of an enemy unit. At least, that's how I think I would play it.

Interesting claim to create a funny hit and run scenario with Nids. However, assuming you auto regrouped before you fall back, you still could not move 3" since you are locked in combat.

Fragile wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Query: what happens if a Terrified unit within synapse loses assault (assuming they are not swept)? Would they stay in base contact, as they would not make a fall back move?

The unit regroups and stops falling back and can immediately move up to 3". This move is unaffected by difficult terrain, but Dangerous Terrain tests must be taken as normal. If the unit is out of coherency when it regroups then the 3" move must be used to restore coherency, or as near as possible. A model cannot end its movement within 1" of an enemy unit. At least, that's how I think I would play it.

Interesting claim to create a funny hit and run scenario with Nids. However, assuming you auto regrouped before you fall back, you still could not move 3" since you are locked in combat.

actually you couldn't be locked and you would have to move out of base contact, on the assumption that you are not swept you would fall back at least .1" as otherwise you are in synapse and thus fearless (auto passing said test to begin with) if you were under the effect of terrify, then you would auto regroup and would have to use at least 1" to move outside the effective radius of the unit you were previously in combat with.

this does open up a wierd movement based rules but such is the game.

Clearly a situation the rules are not designed fore. But I need to flip on this again. I think the RAI can be shown in what would happen if the unit regroups during multiple combats (essentiualy regrouping while locked in combat). There the models that have regroup would remain locked in combat.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

actually you couldn't be locked and you would have to move out of base contact, on the assumption that you are not swept you would fall back at least .1" as otherwise you are in synapse and thus fearless (auto passing said test to begin with) if you were under the effect of terrify, then you would auto regroup and would have to use at least 1" to move outside the effective radius of the unit you were previously in combat with.

this does open up a wierd movement based rules but such is the game.

You would regroup before the Fall Back move, therefore never making a Fall back move. Since you didnt make a Fall Back move, you could not extend it to be out of 1" range.

But, its clear the rules dont work this way, so this is just fun conjecture.

Fragile wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

actually you couldn't be locked and you would have to move out of base contact, on the assumption that you are not swept you would fall back at least .1" as otherwise you are in synapse and thus fearless (auto passing said test to begin with) if you were under the effect of terrify, then you would auto regroup and would have to use at least 1" to move outside the effective radius of the unit you were previously in combat with.

this does open up a wierd movement based rules but such is the game.

You would regroup before the Fall Back move, therefore never making a Fall back move. Since you didnt make a Fall Back move, you could not extend it to be out of 1" range.

But, its clear the rules dont work this way, so this is just fun conjecture.

you would make a regroup move of 3" however.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

actually you couldn't be locked and you would have to move out of base contact, on the assumption that you are not swept you would fall back at least .1" as otherwise you are in synapse and thus fearless (auto passing said test to begin with) if you were under the effect of terrify, then you would auto regroup and would have to use at least 1" to move outside the effective radius of the unit you were previously in combat with.

this does open up a wierd movement based rules but such is the game.

You would regroup before the Fall Back move, therefore never making a Fall back move. Since you didnt make a Fall Back move, you could not extend it to be out of 1" range.

But, its clear the rules dont work this way, so this is just fun conjecture.

you would make a regroup move of 3" however.

Since you did not fall back, you are still in btb with an enemy. Therefore you are locked by definition.

Being in btb does not restrict you from moving in the assault phase.

 Abandon wrote:
Being in btb does not restrict you from moving in the assault phase.

No, but being in base to base with a non-vehicle model does mean you are locked in combat, and limits what kind of moves you can make.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Being in btb does not restrict you from moving in the assault phase.

No, but being in base to base with a non-vehicle model does mean you are locked in combat, and limits what kind of moves you can make.

True but I don't see anything about btb limiting a regroup move in the assault phase.

This is not to say I'm decided on this topic, the 'in CC' question has put me on the fence. Just pointing out a flaw in an argument.

If you are in BTB, you are by rule, locked in combat. If you are locked in combat you are only allowed to do Pile In moves. Is a 3' regroup a Pile In move ?

Fragile wrote:
If you are in BTB, you are by rule, locked in combat. If you are locked in combat you are only allowed to do Pile In moves. Is a 3' regroup a Pile In move ?

I thought the line said something else but you are correct.

"While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." -Who Can Fight?, Page 23, BRB

So no regroup move.