Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Very basic question.

What happens to a synapse creature tyranid that is afflicted by terrify?
Or a non synapse tyranid in synapse range?

Do they lose fearless, run, then receive fearless by synapse? Does terrify have an effect? What exactly happens?

There's a thread debaing this right at the top of the front page.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/577507.page

It started about FMC's but has since just been debating this question.

 grendel083 wrote:
There's a thread debaing this right at the top of the front page.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/577507.page

It started about FMC's but has since just been debating this question.

Yea, I saw that about FMC.

The whole ordeal with flyers going off the table isn't the focus here.

I simply want to know what a swarmlord / tervigon / gaunt would do in the situation.

The fact that got off topic wasn't something I was aware of.

Mega.

The model loses fearless and has to make a morale check. If it fails it either runs because it lost fearless or it stays put because of an "interpretation" that it regroups before it moves (which includes Fall Back "moves")

It boils down to if someone can prove or disprove that a Fall Back Move, is a move.

Fragile wrote:
Mega.

The model loses fearless and has to make a morale check. If it fails it either runs because it lost fearless or it stays put because of an "interpretation" that it regroups before it moves (which includes Fall Back "moves")

Wouldn't it matter exactly when the model gains fearless?

Allow me to clarify. Does a tyranid gain fearless upon entering synapse range, merely keeping it due to remaining in synapse? Or is it a state-based effect?
Would the unit lose fearless, then instantly regain it as they are still in synapse?

Yes, Terrify removes fearless per its RAW. In no way does it turn synapse off. So even after the effect, if you are still in synapse, it'd stand to reason that you'd be fearless.
So the question is when exactly does the unit become fearless again. I think thats a lot more important than the 'move' semantics being argued. If its a state based thing, the test shouldn't even matter.

Regardless, I just want to know / discuss how it works for now; at least a reasonable discussion to have with my friends. I remember the last time an army's special rules were violated - Reanimation Protocols and JOTWW. I have every reason to believe this will be fixed as well.

It's not the Fearless, it's the other part of Synapse that lets the unit regroup.

 grendel083 wrote:
It's not the Fearless, it's the other part of Synapse that lets the unit regroup.

No, its the fearless. Again, we don't know when its re-applied by synapse.
If its re-applied after fearless is stripped, you'd pass the test and never fall back in the first place. If its applied after the psychic power, you'd fall back then become fearless.

Thats the central problem here. When exactly fearless is applied.

EDIT: is it possible for synapse to apply fearless during a psychic power? Is there anything saying it can be? Anything saying it can't be?
Before we discuss the actual movement, this should be the prime focus.

Fearless is not the debate. It does not affect the argument. The next line does.

Fragile wrote:
Fearless is not the debate. It does not affect the argument. The next line does.

P. 423 of the 6th edition 40k rulebook, Terrify psychic power: Target loses 'fearless' special rule, treats all enemies as causing fear and takes a morale test.

If a unit is fearless, they pass the morale test automatically. If synapse re-applies fearless during the psychic power, there is no argument in the first place as nothing would happen.

Again, timing is everything here. After terrify removes fearless, when exactly does synapse apply fearless?

Megamanrocks wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Fearless is not the debate. It does not affect the argument. The next line does.

P. 423 of the 6th edition 40k rulebook, Terrify psychic power: Target loses 'fearless' special rule, treats all enemies as causing fear and takes a morale test.

If a unit is fearless, they pass the morale test automatically. If synapse re-applies fearless during the psychic power, there is no argument in the first place as nothing would happen.

Again, timing is everything here. After terrify removes fearless, when exactly does synapse apply fearless?

Really, fearless has nothing to do with the argument.
Ignore the bit about fearless completely.

Read the Synapse rule, the bit AFTER it grants fearless.

 grendel083 wrote:

Megamanrocks wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Fearless is not the debate. It does not affect the argument. The next line does.

P. 423 of the 6th edition 40k rulebook, Terrify psychic power: Target loses 'fearless' special rule, treats all enemies as causing fear and takes a morale test.

If a unit is fearless, they pass the morale test automatically. If synapse re-applies fearless during the psychic power, there is no argument in the first place as nothing would happen.

Again, timing is everything here. After terrify removes fearless, when exactly does synapse apply fearless?

Really, fearless has nothing to do with the argument.
Ignore the bit about fearless completely.

Read the Synapse rule, the bit AFTER it grants fearless.

You don't regroup if you didn't fail the test.

You don't fail the test if you are fearless.

You are fearless in synapse.

If you are fearless before the test is made, there is no discussion.
Fearless is stripped by the power. When it comes back is the issue.

I'm speaking about a synapse creature being targeted by Terrify and how it resolves, just so we are clear.

Megamanrocks wrote:
You don't regroup if you didn't fail the test.

You don't fail the test if you are fearless.

You are fearless in synapse.

If you are fearless before the test is made, there is no discussion.
Fearless is stripped by the power. When it comes back is the issue.

I'm speaking about a synapse creature being targeted by Terrify and how it resolves, just so we are clear.

Synapse does more than grant Fearless.

After the fearless part it says the model regroups before it moves. THAT'S the part that causes the debate.
It's separate to simply granting fearless.

So even though Fearless has been stripped, the next part will make the model regroup.

The debate is, is says regroup before it moves.
So it would fail the moral test, but before it makes a fall back move, it regroups.

 grendel083 wrote:

Megamanrocks wrote:
You don't regroup if you didn't fail the test.

You don't fail the test if you are fearless.

You are fearless in synapse.

If you are fearless before the test is made, there is no discussion.
Fearless is stripped by the power. When it comes back is the issue.

I'm speaking about a synapse creature being targeted by Terrify and how it resolves, just so we are clear.

Synapse does more than grant Fearless.

After the fearless part it says the model regroups before it moves. THAT'S the part that causes the debate.
It's separate to simply granting fearless.

So even though Fearless has been stripped, the next part will make the model regroup.

The debate is, is says regroup before it moves.
So it would fail the moral test, but before it makes a fall back move, it regroups.

None of this - absolutely none of it - would happen if the unit is fearless before the morale test.

I don't *care* about that debate if we can't even verify if you'd even fall back in the first place.

Its a chicken and egg argument if we can't even determine if the unit is fearless before it tests.

You lose the effect of fearless. If you are still in synapse range at the start of your opponents next turn (when the power ends), you regain Fearless.

This leads to one of two situations:
1. The unit regroups before falling back, however, since they are not Fearless, they can still be pinned, go to ground, take Morale checks, etc.
2. The unit falls back, then on your turn they automatically regroup, however, they still are not fearless, meaning if for some reason they need to take a Morale test (such as losing combat) they could theoretically fall back again.

Megamanrocks wrote:
None of this - absolutely none of it - would happen if the unit is fearless before the morale test.

I don't *care* about that debate if we can't even verify if you'd even fall back in the first place.

Its a chicken and egg argument if we can't even determine if the unit is fearless before it tests.

Was the question not about the Terrify power?

So Fearless has been removed.
It's gone. They're not fearless and won't be for the duration of the power.

Now, this where the next part of Synapse comes in.
If the unit has failed it's moral check due to Terrify, within Synapse range, does it fall back or re-group before it falls back.

Mega, Terrify is a malediction. It lasts until the start of the controlling players next turn. As such the target unit also loses fearless until then. To top it off they don't even really lose fearless at all, they just gain no benefit from it for the powers duration.

"Terrify is a malediction that targets a single enemy unit within 24". The target receives no benefit from the Fearless special rule..."

They actually retain the SR the whole time it is merely rendered ineffective. The question really is about the regrouping part of synapse.

Fragile wrote:
Mega.

The model loses fearless and has to make a morale check. If it fails it either runs because it lost fearless or it stays put because of an "interpretation" that it regroups before it moves (which includes Fall Back "moves")

Please remove these scare quotes, as it is not an interpretation that states a fall back move is a move, but the written, actual rules.

Under synapse a creature cannot make a fall back move, as it must regroup before it does so.

(misread Ignore)

a fall back move is in fact a move.

p30 BRB second paragraph

note that the rule is actually Fall Back and that it is classified as a move.

the triggering mechanism for a regroup check,the unit is considered to regroup before moving 'on it's turn'.

you do not have permission to regroup until or attempt to regroup otherwise.

HOWEVER

given the effects of synapse, and more importantly the wording, this would be an exception to the normal rules for falling back and regrouping, yes the unit looses the benefits of the fearless USR, but it also re-groups before it moves anywhere if it is falling back.

so, on the provision that you fail the moral test caused by the malediction, you will auto-regroup if you are under the influence of synapse, this will extend to fall back moves that would move you within an area effected by synapse also.

keep in mind that the unit will still be considered to have regrouped for other purposes (although they aren't exactly very limiting in your opponents turn).

If the unit is in synapse range before it moves, it automatically regroups. This does not mean the unit regroups before it moves. It only means when the unit regroups, it will not have to pass a test. Its an automatic regroup, not an immediate regroup. There is no special permission to regroup any other time then before a unit moves in its own movement phase.

Apart from Synapse, which states it regroups before it moves. And Fall back movbes are moves, so it HAS to regroup before it performs the fall back move. So if you fall back, you have broken the synapse rule as a unit that has regrouped cannot make anything other than a 3" move (barring ATSKNF, of course)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Apart from Synapse, which states it regroups before it moves. And Fall back movbes are moves, so it HAS to regroup before it performs the fall back move. So if you fall back, you have broken the synapse rule as a unit that has regrouped cannot make anything other than a 3" move (barring ATSKNF, of course)

No part of the synapse rule sates the unit regroups before it moves. Synapse says the unit automatically regroups. It makes no mention of WHEN the unit automatically regroups. The only reference in the synapse rule about 'before the unit moves' is only to check if they are within synapse range of a friendly synapse creature. The rule does not give you permission to regroup any other time then when you normally would be able to regroup.

If A is true before B happens, then C automatically happens.

In this scenario who does or does not get a raise is determined at the end of each quarter.
If Johnny signs the client before they eat lunch, then Johnny automatically gets a raise. Johnny will not get his raise before lunch because it is not the end of the quarter.

In the synapse scenario what units can and cannot regroup is determined in each unit's own movement phase.
If the unit is in range to the right creature before they move, then the unit automatically regroups. The unit will not regroup from terrify before it moves because it is not the unit;s own movement phase.

Relevant portion of Synapse: "If a unit from Codex: Tyranids is falling back and at least one of the unit's models is within a friendly Synapse Creature's synapse range before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups."

A unit that falls back has not regrouped.

Nos, that is stating that the unit has to be already falling back for it to regroup.

You have to fallback at least once, before you can automatically regroup.

Falling back is a state. That state is applied after a unit fails it's moral check, otherwise there would be nothing to check against for regroup tests.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Nos, that is stating that the unit has to be already falling back for it to regroup.

You have to fallback at least once, before you can automatically regroup.

Falling Back != fallback MOVE. One is a state, the other is a part of that state

If I automatically regroup before moving, and then move, have I regrouped?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If I automatically regroup before moving, and then move, have I regrouped?

You DO NOT automatically regroup BEFORE moving. Let go of that flawed concept.
Say it with me, you DO NOT automatically regroup BEFORE moving.

You regroup automatically when you can regroup. NO OTHER TIME. If you are falling back in your own movement phase then the synapse rule will cause you to regroup before your fall back move because you actually can regroup. If you need to make fall back moves in any other phase the synapse rule cannot cause you to regroup because you are do not have permission to regroup in those phases. The synapse rule does not give such permission the way they worded it.

 DJGietzen wrote:
You DO NOT automatically regroup BEFORE moving.

Synapse, Codex: Tyranids wrote:before the unit moves, the unit automatically Regroups.

The rule seems to directly contradict your statement.
Can you prove that a unit can only ever regroup in the Movement Phase?
Because I can think of examples of rules allowing a unit to regroup in both the Shooting and Assault phase.

 DJGietzen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If I automatically regroup before moving, and then move, have I regrouped?

You DO NOT automatically regroup BEFORE moving. Let go of that flawed concept.
Say it with me, you DO NOT automatically regroup BEFORE moving.

You regroup automatically when you can regroup. NO OTHER TIME. If you are falling back in your own movement phase then the synapse rule will cause you to regroup before your fall back move because you actually can regroup. If you need to make fall back moves in any other phase the synapse rule cannot cause you to regroup because you are do not have permission to regroup in those phases. The synapse rule does not give such permission the way they worded it.

That's not what the Synapse rule says. It says something along the lines of "If a unit is falling back and within 12" of a synapse creature before moving, it automatically regroups." It grants permission to regroup before moving since the unit in question meets every requirement of the Synapse rule.

Is the unit falling back? Well, it failed it's morale check which means it's falling back, so check.
Is the unit within 12" of a synapse creature? Well this one actually depends on the situation but we can only assume it's a check because otherwise the argument is moot. So, check.
Is it before moving? Well, the rules for falling back tell us we are moving, so that's a check as well.

Now what do the rules for Synapse say? We automatically regroup. Timing doesn't matter. We are given permission to regroup at any time before moving when we are falling back.

At best, your argument boils down to a conflict between the codex and the rulebook.

Do I fully expect this to be FAQed away at some point? Sure. Because I am positive GW didn't even think of Terrify when writing the rules, but that doesn't change what is written.