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 mwnciboo wrote:
Oh I completely forgot in my post...

The slightly older demographic....I enjoy playing in the 30+ age bracket, it's just a bit more grown up and I don't have to act as Pseudo baby-sitter to a socially awkward teenager.

Agreed it's civilised. I think our local group ranges from late 20's to 50's and it's great fun

 mwnciboo wrote:
Oh I completely forgot in my post...

The slightly older demographic....I enjoy playing in the 30+ age bracket, it's just a bit more grown up and I don't have to act as Pseudo baby-sitter to a socially awkward teenager.

Plus you don't get many purile arguments like "Mephiston vs Hive tyrant" or my build can smash anything.

I like a gentle afternoon, with a few friends, a cup of Coffee, tea or Glass of Beer, some snacks and a bit of a chat about the models, the scenario etc. Win or Lose I don't actually care, it's the spectacle I like and enjoy.

That's a pretty good point actually. When I worked in an independent store that sold Flames of War, a fair number of the people starting up the game were moving on from 40k.

A lot of them seemed to be 16-20 or so, that kind of age where you either stop playing wargames altogether, or don't want to be seen playing against kids in the GW down the road (at least, that seems to be the case in the UK). Think Battlefront has had a lot of success on the grounds of appealing to this kind of player (with the easy accessibility) as well as the traditional historicals player.

I am not interested in playing USA or Germany, so that makes the starter box obsolete for me. The only ones I would be interested in are France, Finland, or Italy. Based off nothing other than the face that I would like to live in one of these countries or they make awesome motorcycles. I heard these smaller armies aren't as good for beginners?

France is really only an early war army, there is a PDF briefing of them in late war on the BF website, but they're basically US with different rules.

Italy is about to get redone for late war which will be interesting.

And I love Finland, hence I'm doing then! But not a great starter army


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France is really only an early war army, there is a PDF briefing of them in late war on the BF website, but they're basically US with different rules.

Italy is about to get redone for late war which will be interesting.

And I love Finland, hence I'm doing then! But not a great starter army

dave40k wrote:
I am not interested in playing USA or Germany, so that makes the starter box obsolete for me. The only ones I would be interested in are France, Finland, or Italy. Based off nothing other than the face that I would like to live in one of these countries or they make awesome motorcycles. I heard these smaller armies aren't as good for beginners?

There are some big differences here between the lot of them.

First the French can be played in EW and in LW, but LW they are pretty much American forces with slightly different national rules. EW french have some of the best armored tanks in the game and the panhard armored car is a very good vehicle for the period, especially before they changed the one-man turret rule and french tanks couldn't move and fire their main gun in the same turn. Panhards are not as necessary now, though, as the one man turret now gives a +1 to the target number needed if the tank moves. I love the EW period, but most people prefer to play LW because that is when all the big and monstrous cool toys come into play.

The finnish are a mixed bag. They aren't bad to play in general, but are harder to play. Their own armor is easily outclassed by the russians especially as the war progresses and you'll find yourself buying russian gun sets and replacing the crews so they can get a bit more expensive as well. They do get access to some captured russian armor in some of their lists without as many of the russian limitations on them which makes them a little more expensive in game, but also a little better. The ultimate situation here is that the Finns were never a military power house of any kind and were more a bunch of people protecting their home from aggression from multiple sources. Of course fighting for one's home can lead to some serious efforts on the battlefield.

The italians are the most interesting of the 3 for me as they can be used in EW and MW, but also suffer from that same problem of lots of people prefering the LW period. By the late war period the the Italian's had surrendered and most of the defense of the remaining parts of Italy was left to german forces. The Italians have a TON of guns and can be scary to try to dig out of prepared positions because their forces are really cheap and they can get a lot of those guns. The italians are stymied by two issues. The first is model availability. Most basic units and guns are available from BF, but not all armored vehicles are available from BF. Also those armored vehicles that are available are only available in blisters and not in the more cost effective unit boxes as Italians are not as popular. For some vehicles you will need to look to alternate mini sources. Unfortuantely Italians get the short end of the stick from other manufacturers as well, so you might find one instance of a specific tank and it can either be really well done or really horribly done and it will be your only choice. The second issue is that variable quality/skill situation. Each unit in the army will have a randomly determined level of quality and skill to simulate the horribly variable capabilities of the officers in the Italian army in the war. This is rolled right before the game starts each time and could leave you very vulnerable in critical areas due to poor rolling on the table, and it can also be very confusing for new players to keep track of and remember. Usually every unit on the table is going to have the same level of quality/skill with some occasional exceptions, but the Italians never really play and present themselves the same way twice. They are still a neat force to consider, though.

I understand your desire to play something different. I play british forces in all 3 war periods because everyone else wants to play the germans, russians or americans. I considered romanians at one point, but it was still a lot like playing the germans, so I just stuck with the brits. They have the advantage of being one of the forces available for play during the entire war, and looking ahead I figured I could use a lot of the minis in the Pacific if that ever really got off the ground in a big way.

Skriker

I can give you some advice on Italians, as they were my first army.

First, they are not the easiest army to learn, so if you start with them, be prepared to lose often until you understand how to play them. However, now that I have figured out how to play them, I find many of my opponents have trouble dealing with the size and composition of my army (even people who I play often), and I do a lot better with them.

They also have the advantage that the same army can be used in both Early War and Mid War, as they mainly changed in organization rather than equipment, so the same tanks and infantry can be used.

On the topic of motorcycles, you can actually have an army where the primary infantry are mounted on motorcycles, the Motciclisti, or include units of these in your army: http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=144&art_id=1281



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 Skriker wrote:

dave40k wrote:
I am not interested in playing USA or Germany, so that makes the starter box obsolete for me. The only ones I would be interested in are France, Finland, or Italy. Based off nothing other than the face that I would like to live in one of these countries or they make awesome motorcycles. I heard these smaller armies aren't as good for beginners?

The second issue is that variable quality/skill situation. Each unit in the army will have a randomly determined level of quality and skill to simulate the horribly variable capabilities of the officers in the Italian army in the war. This is rolled right before the game starts each time and could leave you very vulnerable in critical areas due to poor rolling on the table, and it can also be very confusing for new players to keep track of and remember. Usually every unit on the table is going to have the same level of quality/skill with some occasional exceptions, but the Italians never really play and present themselves the same way twice.

One thing to note about this is the worst ratings can be offset by going with the more elite forces, such as the Bersaglieri or Airborne troops, and this downside is also somewhat offset by how cheap the units are points wise, leading my Bersaglieri to usually have 9-10 units at 2000 pts., 2 of which are 20+ base infantry companies with integrated HMG and Anti-tank guns.

But money wise, the Italians are not a cheap army to collect. Some of their required weapons are only avalible through special order and as Skriker said, they are no longer available in the platoon boxes other armies are in.

I like the FInnish because the core of their infantry is strong throughout the war. You can basically equip them the same way early, mid, and late war. By throwing a few German or Russian tanks in the mix to fill in gaps for the specific time that you are playing.

They will probably be the next army that I make.

France are pretty interesting, and actually one of the stronger factions if you want to play early war. Their tanks are pretty nasty, and I saw a pretty good game with bunch of early Panzers trying to outmanoeuvre the very tough French tanks.

A friend of mine plays Mid-war Italians (North Africa) and they are a lot of fun, very tenacious infantry, and some 88's which offer a quite nasty punch.

Not too sure about the Fins, think I would probably go late war with them as they offer Stugs and of course you can go for the looted KV-1, which at Veteran level would definitely give your opponent something to worry about!

I find the Finns the most stable and somewhat static throughout the periods, but they're a defensive list for the most part, but they're good at it since they're Vets. Having captured Russian guns and armor helps, but it's really about their infantry that see them through.

The Italians, like Seric, were my first army as well (Bersaglieri) and I learned through trial-by-fire on how to make them work. It has challenges due to equipment and skill-issues, however, even with the lower skilled units, they mitigate that disadvantage with larger numbers (via their different orgs and all). After I figured them out, I found, for the most part, i could work well with my German allies in North Africa and hold my own against most MW lists with the exception of Brit Commandos (night attacking) or the mass of Soviet Steel (although I'm better at handling them now in V3).

The French are very viable in EW due to their armor, and as posted above, their Panhard armored cars. Their Colonial troops are good as well. French Foreign Legion are decent in the EW - Mid-East period (Burning Empires i think). Like others have said, in LW the French are pretty much US equipped with Brit or US support, but I find EW is where they shine on their own the best.

Early war is where the French shine?

How ironic..

Big P wrote:
Early war is where the French shine?

How ironic..

To be fair, it's all relative.

Thats what Petain said...

Big P wrote:
Early war is where the French shine?

How ironic..

Historically, no.....but in game-terms they have some serious potential with their equipment and units.

 ThirdUltra wrote:

Big P wrote:
Early war is where the French shine?

How ironic..

Historically, no.....but in game-terms they have some serious potential with their equipment and units.

The French did have some success during the EW period in some areas, such as the delaying action at Bir Hakeim. Also keep in mind that FOW is a tactical level game. The French had some good troops and equipment (a lot of their tanks were better than what the Germans had at the time) but their doctrine was poor, particularly regarding tanks, so they weren't able to utilize them effectively. As the player (in any game), you don't tend to have those same doctrinal constraints.

Grew jaded with GW, been at it since Dark Future, Heroquest and so forth were new, loved second edition 40k, and watched it all change so much over the years, GW isn't the company it once was, WD sucks, prices are silly, staff are just plain boring salesmen, and many pushy at that.

Someone in IRC mentioned FoW and I haven't looked back.
I love how balanced it all is, and how infrequently I have lost and not seen my error, too many systems see people lose on the roll of some random die, in this one I always feel I could have done better, and my victories are far more rewarding.

Snatched defeat from the jaws of victory a few times, but it's so rewarding when you do the reverse and turn a lost cause into total victory.

 Pacific wrote:
France are pretty interesting, and actually one of the stronger factions if you want to play early war. Their tanks are pretty nasty, and I saw a pretty good game with bunch of early Panzers trying to outmanoeuvre the very tough French tanks.

How'd it go for the Panzers? I ask as someone who's going to be using Czech Panzers in an escalation campaign-sort of thing starting in March, going from 750>1000>1250>1500, and I know that someone was debating bringing his Somuas out to play. Since I can't do much more than give Somua/Valentine/Matilda drivers a nasty headache from the ricochets of my panzer shots, I'm going to be counting on speed and Veteran status to keep me safe; how did that seem to go down in the bolded match?

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
France are pretty interesting, and actually one of the stronger factions if you want to play early war. Their tanks are pretty nasty, and I saw a pretty good game with bunch of early Panzers trying to outmanoeuvre the very tough French tanks.

How'd it go for the Panzers? I ask as someone who's going to be using Czech Panzers in an escalation campaign-sort of thing starting in March, going from 750>1000>1250>1500, and I know that someone was debating bringing his Somuas out to play. Since I can't do much more than give Somua/Valentine/Matilda drivers a nasty headache from the ricochets of my panzer shots, I'm going to be counting on speed and Veteran status to keep me safe; how did that seem to go down in the bolded match?

I dont know if it helps, but I have the same problem playing Japan. My speed and skill keeps me alive while my shots bounce off their armour. I have to rely on other means to properly take out enemy armour. I do have the added bonus of moving very quickly at night as a special rule but in my experience although speed keeps the tanks alive along with being superior in skill, its not enough by a long shot to win the game. I have end up having to use my tanks for a completely different purpose (such as harassing infantry or taking out enemy guns) and getting something else to deal the killing blows.

But its a completely different situation in a way but similar.

It's a great game, great scale, great look and feel on the tabletop.

Absolutely love Ostfront '42 stuff. Fall Blau, Stalingrad and all that. But my interest ends as soon as the snow melts in '43. Until they start putting Marines into Pacific beach landing scenarios anyways, then I'm in trouble.

 dracpanzer wrote:
It's a great game, great scale, great look and feel on the tabletop.

Absolutely love Ostfront '42 stuff. Fall Blau, Stalingrad and all that. But my interest ends as soon as the snow melts in '43. Until they start putting Marines into Pacific beach landing scenarios anyways, then I'm in trouble.

Hell yes! Grandpa was a SeaBee in the South Pacific (and I don't mean the musical)... as soon as they make the Pacific I'm doing 2nd Marine with SeaBee Engineers.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
France are pretty interesting, and actually one of the stronger factions if you want to play early war. Their tanks are pretty nasty, and I saw a pretty good game with bunch of early Panzers trying to outmanoeuvre the very tough French tanks.

How'd it go for the Panzers? I ask as someone who's going to be using Czech Panzers in an escalation campaign-sort of thing starting in March, going from 750>1000>1250>1500, and I know that someone was debating bringing his Somuas out to play. Since I can't do much more than give Somua/Valentine/Matilda drivers a nasty headache from the ricochets of my panzer shots, I'm going to be counting on speed and Veteran status to keep me safe; how did that seem to go down in the bolded match?

As someone who's run a French tank list in the past, you'll still be able to penetrate S35s, particularly if you can flank them. You'll need to be at short range, and you'll need a mass of fire to generate the number of hits needed, but it is doable. And something to keep in mind is that the same French list that uses the S35 also uses the H35/H39. That tank is a joke (the armor's only slightly worse than the S35, but the gun is horrible), but your French opponent will probably need to bring at least a platoon of them if he wants to fill out his armored company.

What you really need to watch out for isn't the S35. Rather, it's the Char B1 bis. If your French opponent brings any of those to the table, then you'll be in a bit of trouble. And the Matildas are even worse.

Since he expressed his desire to use more than one platoon of S35s, I don't think I'll see many - if any - Chars from him considering you can't take more than one platoon of S35s in any list that allows you to take Chars.

I do fear Matildas a bit, though, especially since I think two players are using Brits. They're expensive, but I can't touch them with anything except my Stuka. If they're camping on his objectives then I'll have to try and force a company morale check, or get exceedingly lucky with bombs.

I keep wondering whether I should be taking my 4 8-rads, or even any 8-rads at all. Two 8.8s - and maybe reducing my priority stuka to limited - should allow me to take on heavy tanks, but 8.8s are expensive, and any amount of smoke can render them useless.

Then again, if I see very few heavy tanks, the 8.8s may well turn out to be expensive overkill. 8-Rads certainly aren't bad choices, so it's not as if I'm handicapping myself by keeping them instead of the 8.8s...

But anyway, this is deviating a fair bit from this thread's purpose. I might make my own thread on it later.

Once you play 15mm everything else feels like a Skirmish game. The rules are very clean...not perfect as none are but good.

The game is about tactics.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Once you play 15mm everything else feels like a Skirmish game. The rules are very clean...not perfect as none are but good.

The game is about tactics.

I am really starting to dig the 15mm scale alot more here lately,especially now that i am kinda on break from painting German camo.I can really fly thruogh my BRit rifles.So far this week i have painted 2 lorried platoons,engineers and a 6 tube mortar platoon that will be done today.All i need to do is order some proper foliage for my bases.
To bad they did not do 40k in this scale like it was meant to be played in.It was a rip off of 15mm LAser burn rules.But even fantasy would even be more fun.

I like FoW because it is 15mm, which means you can have very large armies.
I also like it because it is WW2 and because there are KV-tanks. Nothing beats playing with massive Soviet tank armies