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Also why is it named the clone wars? All wars in our own history are named for the years they were fought, the location they were fought, or maybe the reason they were fought. Wars are not named for the weapons used in them. We don't call World War 1 the mustard gas war. So why call it the clone wars the clones weren't fighting each other?

WHY WHY I SAY?

Star Wars internal politics rarely make much sense. EU invariably ends up making it more complicated.

As posted before, the Red Letter Media Mr Plinket Reviews are amazing and covers a lot of this stuff.

They've covered all the prequels

NSFW Language but hilarious.

Here's the direct link rather than the youtube videos, Revenge of the Sith review is also on their http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/

Phantom Menace

Attack of the Clones

The answer is that the plot for the whole of the Clone Wars era is very poorly thought out. On the one hand, we are told that the Separatists are leaving the republic because of the corruption in the government. Except that government corruption is aided and abetted (and oft perpetrated) by monied interests (large businesses, rich people, banks, etc) and it is those same monied interest who are the leaders of the Separatist movement (Trade Fed, Banking Clans, and so on) which begs the question... who is corrupting the government and how, if the people with the money are the ones leaving in protest over corruption?

The clone army is built in secret, along with enough armor and guns to equip them and enough warships to transport them (and paid for how, exactly?) and all of it, ALL of it, is ready to go exactly when the Republic faces a war? A war that ten years ago, when the army was commissioned, it had no idea would be happening? And nobody says "wait a sec, guys... this seems awfully convenient here"..? Not to mention that the guy who was the template for the whole army is the personal bodyguard of the guy leading the Separatist movement... you're telling me nobody, not even the Jedi, thought that was too much of a coincidence?

Added to that is the sheer stupidity of the Republic not having an army in the first place. Someone has to defend the borders, stop pirates, and fight external threats. The Jedi alone cannot do that, since there are only 20,000 of them (as we are told in episode 2). Sure, one could argue that the Jedi are like Space Marines and are more powerful than their numbers suggest. Except all those dead bodies in brown robes lying in the sand at the end of episode 2 would suggest that they aren't all that butch, after all. So we have a government roughly the size of the IoM defending itself with a force only 2% of the size of the combined might of all SM chapters in existence, and nothing else? There is no way that government is going to survive a soccer riot, let alone a small border skirmish.

Then there is the fact that the Separatists don't actually start the war; the Republic does. The Republic started the war by sending the Jedi and the Clones to rescue a Senator and a pair of Jedi who were engaged in espionage on foreign soil. Y'know, during the Cold War, a lot of our spies got caught, and we caught a lot of their spies too, and we usually just imprisoned them or traded them back for our guys. I don't recall the U.S. launching an all-out attack on the Soviets because some CIA guys got caught where they shouldn't be, but maybe I'm just senile. What I'm trying to say is, there were a lot of ways to handle that situation, and the Republic screwed it up. Actually, no... the Jedi screwed it up, since they should've been pushing for negotiations (rather than being the ones to spearhead the attack... especially since it seems they didn't know Yoda was on his way with a surprise army).

The answer goes beyond the cop-out answer of "Palpatine!" He can plan all he wants, and he can manipulate all he wants, but at the end of the day, his plans only succeeded because literally every single character in those movies was dumber than a bag of doorknobs. Had even one character had a modicum of intelligence, they would've exposed the plot to start the war (if not Palpatine himself) about 2/3 the way through episode 2. And it isn't like Palpy was being subtle about it. If he had a moustache, he'd have been twirling that thing 24/7. I'm surprised we never saw him tying a woman to a set of train tracks, honestly.

The only way to explain the plot of the prequels in a rational way is to pretend that the prequel movies are actually Imperial propaganda created after the wars ended, to smear the Jedi and make them all look astoundingly stupid.

PS: I hate the fact that the prequel era is called the "Clone Wars" era... in fact, there are no wars, only a singular war. The Republic fights the Separatists for a few years. One war. Just one. Clone WarS implies multiples. Like "Boer Wars" (there were two) "World Wars" (there were two) or "Indian Wars" (there was one for every different tribe the U.S. tried to wipe out).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FirePainter wrote:
Also why is it named the clone wars? All wars in our own history are named for the years they were fought, the location they were fought, or maybe the reason they were fought. Wars are not named for the weapons used in them. We don't call World War 1 the mustard gas war. So why call it the clone wars the clones weren't fighting each other?

WHY WHY I SAY?

In this instance, I think the war is named for the participants in it (like the Boer Wars, the Zulu Wars, the French and Indian War, etc) rather than the weapons being used. Oddly enough, all wars that are named after one of the participants are named after the loser, by the winner. The English called them the Boer Wars (because they were fighting the Boers) and the Zulu Wars (because they were fighting the Zulus). Americans call it the French and Indian War because we were fighting the French, and their Native American allies (never mind that, at the time, we were still British and we had Indian allies of our own). But I guarantee you that the Boers, Zulus, and French call those wars something else.

So why did the side that won the war in Star Wars name the war after itself? The Clone Wars, by accepted historical naming conventions, should be a war by the Republic against an army of clones. The war we are subjected to in the prequels is not the Clone Wars, it is the Droid War.

When a defining scene of the franchise is undermined repeatedly by the prequels all SW fans should disregard them as the travesties they are. I like to think they never happened or that they are perhaps their own self contained thing. Connecting them to the original films hurts me a little.


Vader doesn't deserve to be redeemed at the end of Jedi if you take the prequels into account.

"I feel the good in you... and that you murdered a bunch of innocent children...?" doesn't quite work.

 Medium of Death wrote:
When a defining scene of the franchise is undermined repeatedly by the prequels all SW fans should disregard them as the travesties they are. I like to think they never happened or that they are perhaps their own self contained thing. Connecting them to the original films hurts me a little.



Vader doesn't deserve to be redeemed at the end of Jedi if you take the prequels into account.


"I feel the good in you... and that you murdered a bunch of innocent children...?" doesn't quite work.

Like I said, they are just Imperial propaganda designed to smear and discredit the Jedi.

Although, apropos of nothing, I run a dice n paper Star Wars RPG every week, and my victims... er, players, wanted me to set it in the Clone Wars era... I told them I would, but that I would be junking 95% of everything from the prequels (which is in stark contrast to how I run an OT campaign. I never contradict the movies in an OT campaign... I even show respect to as much of the EU as a sane man can). I have re-designed the Republic government, re-defined the role of the Jedi, re-cast several characters (Anakin is no longer played by whats-his-name, Morgan Freeman is Mace Windu, etc) and completely re-written the entire conflict. I've been running this campaign for four years of actual time, and the First Clone War only started about six months ago (actual time).

My players seem happy with the results.

The prequels work better if you view the Jedi Order as the real BGs, essentially trying to slowly take power.

Everything fits! Palpatine was right!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
What I don't get is how that turned into a war.

Palpatine.


I know it seems like that's a cop out answer, but that's the reason. He ordered the Clones, he had Dooku put in charge of the Separatists, he had the attacks on Amidala organized so that Naboo would side with forming an army and declaring war.

War happened because he planned one and moved all the pieces into place to start it.

This is honestly the most accurate answer you'll get. The fun answer is because of Jar Jar Binks. It's widely (ok, maybe mildly) believed JJB was created as a hated character because a scapegoat for the destruction of the Jedi and republic was needed. He was the vote that put Palpatine in Imperial power.

Its actually Qui-gon's fault.

If he hadn't taken Jar-jar with him in Episode 1 the Gungans would have killed him, and then he would never have become a representative, and never would have made that crucial vote.

See! Its the evil Jedi!

I decided to ask this question after watching an episode of the Clone Wars TV show. It's the one where Padme knows a Separatist senator and they try to work out a peace vote on both sides.

I thought to myself, okay, what would it take to achieve peace here? What would each side want? And then it hit me: if any one knows why this war is going on in the first place, no one has ever bothered to tell the audience. But given Padme's and the Separatist senator's actions in the show, it seems much more likely that no one in-universe has any clue, either.

So basically in this episode, the war for which the show itself is named nearly ends in ~10 minutes' screen time because two people realize they have no reason whatsoever to actually be fighting at all. I mean, that's a big fething weakness in Palpatine's master plan: the fact that if any given person thinks about anything going on around them for more than a millisecond, they will realize it makes no sense and then attempt to do something that makes even a little sense.

Years and years ago, I realized that the prequels are basically the story of how the Jedi fethed everything up and deserved to be slaughtered. It turns out, however, that the Jedi were actually no more or less catastophically moronic than anyone living in those days.

What's really amazing to me is we have these shows, two seasons of traditional animation and what like five seasons of computer animation, plus all the comics, toys, novels, etc, etc, and it all has the phrase "CLONE WARS" plastered all over it. And yet none of this product can even manage to answer the simple question "what's this war about anyway?"

"Oh that's obvious it's about a secret evil wizard tricking every one with corporate tax reform," really doesn't cut it.

I think the idea was that there was really a large amount of disinformation about the different sides(explained by Palpatine's influence)

The Dark Side was clouding everything so that nobody could see what was going on.

The Separatists were leaving because of Corruption, ironically caused by many of the Separatists themselves. Although the Trade Federation was really just following the money and selling the services of their Droid army to the Separatists. Plus the leaders having a personal grudge against Padme.

The Naboo conflict was really just a small opening salvo.

I expect that Palaptine was really just playing both sides, he wasn't terribly concerned with what side won, just that the Jedi were destroyed in the process. He saw the opportunity to destroy the Jedi from within and took it, although frankly the ease with which the Jedi were destroyed was a little anti-climactic. That's probably the real plot hole. How did they manage to reduce the Jedi order from thousands of members to less than a dozen? I could see maybe getting rid of 2/3 of them, including everyone on Corescant, with the surprise attack, but you wouldn't be able to catch all of them with their pants down. Many of the best Jedi masters were easily shanked from behind and business carried on as usual.

Well, no, it's clear that the Republic was meant to win. That way, Palpatine could lord it over all the important banks and arms manufacturers to secure his Empire.

But anyway, the explanation "that no one knew what was going on the whole time" is super lame and totally unacceptable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
frankly the ease with which the Jedi were destroyed was a little anti-climactic. That's probably the real plot hole.

This is actually the one thing that made perfect sense to me about the prequels. 'Cause, you know, I paid attention to the old movies.

So in said old movies, Kenobi and Yoda are constantly telling Luke the only way for things to work out is if he murders his dad. That's right: the wisest and best characters constantly pressure the main character to murder his dad. Hey guess what they were totally 100% wrong about that. Turns out, sons are probably correct to feel hesitant about murdering their dads. Turns out, telling someone to murder their dad is actually really bad advice. Maybe even evil advice.

Yeah. These were the leaders of the Jedi Order.

They don't tell him to murder Vader. They want Luke to stay away from him because they don't want him to face him yet.

They talk about facing/confronting him, but they don't actively talk about killing him.

I'm not saying that the Jedi are right, they urge Luke to not fall into Vader's trap on cloud city fearing that he is not ready. Considering that his father fell to the dark side they do have a genuine reason for him not to go.

Luke does learn lessons on cloud city and strengthens his bond with his friends. This ultimately leads to his triumph in Jedi over Vader as his love for his friends and his new-found sister fill him with rage when he is provoked. Lukes anger is born out of good and noble intentions and couple that with the vision in Empire, of his head behind Vader's mask, and the similarity of their bionics pulls him back from giving in to his hate.

Yoda and Obi Wan aren't the morons that they are in the prequels. The advice they give is good given what we know in the original films, but it turns out Luke achieves a great outcome by doing things his own way.

The Galactic Senate by the time of Phantom Menace is corrupt and full of bureaucrats running it. Palpatine organised the Naboo Blockade by antagonising the Trade Federation with tax laws in the Senate and goading the Federation as Sidious into launching their blockade and invasion on the premise that he would protect the Federation's interests in the Senate. Palpatine was made Chancellor by manipulating Amidala. Then the invasion was foiled and the Viceroy taken into custody.

However, the Viceroy was still in charge of the Federation after his trial. At this time, Count Dooku had left the Jedi Order and under Sidious was provoking the Separatist movement by preying on the capitalist interests disadvantaged by the Republic's taxes and trade laws. The Jedi were working as ambassadors to negotiate with the Separatist planets, but hostility and terrorist attacks led to their breakdown and failure. It was then that the Senate realised that the Separatist movement could be a violent and retaliatory one, and with only the Jedi order, planetary militia, and a Judicial Force limited by a law forbidding the Republic having a significant military, they feared they may need to undo that law and raise an army to defend the Republic from attack.

The Trade Federation joined the Separatists and the Viceroy was out for Amidala's blood. Dooku suggested building a military force to attack Coruscant and remove the corrupt Senate and Jedi Order to enable seccession. The Viceroy agreed to build this army if something was done about Amidala. So the assassination attempt happens which leads to Obi-Wan discovering the Clone Army ready for the Republic, and then going to Geonosis to discover the Droid Army. With Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme captured to be executed, the Jedi Order and the Senate both saw it a desperate time to give Palpatine emergency powers and utilise the Clone Army. The vote passed, and the Jedi and the Clones went to Geonosis. This is where the war really began. The Republic knew the Separatists had a Droid Army and were likely to use it to attack the Republic. With the act of invading Geonosis, they had initiated the conflict and begun the Clone Wars.

MoD: No wrong.

Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

 Manchu wrote:
So in said old movies, Kenobi and Yoda are constantly telling Luke the only way for things to work out is if he murders his dad.

 Manchu wrote:
MoD: No wrong.

Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

They don't even say it once, never mind constantly.





Obi Wan isn't speaking for Yoda, he has taken the fall of Vader personally and sees it as his own failing. He wasn't as good as Yoda. Vader has changed so much from how Obi Wan knew him that he thinks he can't be redeemed.

He urges Luke to confront him, he needs to face Vader no matter the outcome. Luke interprets that as kill. He then says that the Emperor has already won because Luke doesn't want to face his father at all. Luke had to be prepared to have to kill Vader in order to defeat him. If Luke had remained passive in the final confrontation Vader would have killed him instead.

 Manchu wrote:
So in said old movies, Kenobi and Yoda are constantly telling Luke the only way for things to work out is if he murders his dad. That's right: the wisest and best characters constantly pressure the main character to murder his dad. Hey guess what they were totally 100% wrong about that. Turns out, sons are probably correct to feel hesitant about murdering their dads. Turns out, telling someone to murder their dad is actually really bad advice. Maybe even evil advice.

Yeah. These were the leaders of the Jedi Order.

That's not true...that's impossible!

 Hordini wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So in said old movies, Kenobi and Yoda are constantly telling Luke the only way for things to work out is if he murders his dad. That's right: the wisest and best characters constantly pressure the main character to murder his dad. Hey guess what they were totally 100% wrong about that. Turns out, sons are probably correct to feel hesitant about murdering their dads. Turns out, telling someone to murder their dad is actually really bad advice. Maybe even evil advice.

Yeah. These were the leaders of the Jedi Order.

That's not true...that's impossible!

Not bad.

now try it again but with a little more whine.

Wow, MoD, you have really misunderstood the script ... and seemingly the whole movie. Kenobi is speaking for Yoda, which is why he says Luke was "our" only hope. Indeed, Yoda has also just told Luke he must confront Vader, which is why the conversation with Kenobi is happening in the first place. Kenobi does suggest Luke kill Vader, not merely confront him -- although Kenobi is reticent to flat-out say it. He goes out of his way to depersonalize Vader to make the suggestion more palpable (just like Kenobi's larger lie about the issue). When Luke finally does flat-out say it, and says he cannot do it, Kenobi acknowledges that the issue is killing Vader by saying that the Emperor has already won because Luke can't kill Vader.

Also, we know that Luke isn't merely talking about not being able to confront Vader because he does so as soon as he has the opportunity. The ensuing scenes are in fact all about Luke confronting Vader but refusing to kill him. This in turn is how Vader is redeemed, turns on the Emperor, and saves his son. And if that wasn't clear enough for you, Vader's last words are "tell your sister you were right about me." And do you know who was totally wrong? Yoda and Kenobi.

Now, take a look at the prequel Jedi. Just like in the original movies, they have pretty much zero insight into normal emotional experience. They forbid anyone to be in love, for example. And when it wreaks severe psychological havoc on Anakin, no one seems to understand or even be able to figure out what is going on -- even after Anakin goes to Yoda for advice on the matter.

 Manchu wrote:
They forbid anyone to be in love, for example. And when it wreaks severe psychological havoc on Anakin, no one seems to understand or even be able to figure out what is going on -- even after Anakin goes to Yoda for advice on the matter.

Here's David Willis saying the same thing in his own way.

Luke falls into his trap in Empire, rather than intentionally wanting to confront him, when he goes off to save his friends. Vader doesn't present any good in that encounter, he wants the Galaxy for himself and for Luke to join him.

Emotions/feelings aren't really taboo in the original trilogy. Yoda warns Luke of them when he hastily shoots off to Cloud City and says that it is a trap set by Vader, which he is correct about. Obi Wan says to Luke that his feelings "do him credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor", which he is proved right on until he regains his composure. He subsequently looses control again when provoked by Vader.

Before he hands himself in to Vader on Endor he resolves not to kill Vader because he is his "father" and that he senses "good" in him. Vader does redeem himself and there was good in him but from Obi Wan and Yoda's perspectives they see somebody who betrayed them, hunted the Jedi to near extinction and helped in placing the Galaxy directly beneath the Emperor's boot heel. Luke is still grappling with the force as well as the revelation of his hidden past; they would be wise to doubt his feelings on the matter. Luke growing up not knowing his parents might have influenced him to see good aspects that aren't there. Resisting killing Vader only came with the realisation of what the Emperor was doing and from the experience in the Dagobah Cave and seeing his father's severed cybernetic hand. He fights Vader passionately because he cares about his friends and doesn't want them to come to harm, specifically Leia in that scene.

Luke being right in the end doesn't mean that Yoda or Obi Wan were moronic in their approach.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, I get why the Separatists wanted to withdraw from the Republic. What I don't get is how that turned into a war.

The same way the American Civil War started.

"We're leaving to do our own thing."
"Bull fething gak you are!"

See also: Ike and Tina Turner.

 Manchu wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Papaltine was granted emergency powers by the senate to end the conflict with the trade federation.

The Trade Federation? Wha? No, the emergency powers were granted to deal with the secessionist crisis. Exactly how the response of TOTAL WAR was justified is what's at issue ITT.

Meh. Trade federation, secessionists. Same thing. Papaltine created the crisis through Count Duku, then had newly named Darth Vader kill them on on Lava World after most of the jedi were killed and his power was solidified.

I suggest that you read "Darth Plagueis" the master of Sidious.
Its all there. Theres allso an audiobook on youtube.

 IceBayPaint wrote:
I suggest that you read "Darth Plagueis" the master of Sidious.
Its all there. Theres allso an audiobook on youtube.

It's in my 'to read' pile; someday perhaps

 Medium of Death wrote:
As posted before, the Red Letter Media Mr Plinket Reviews are amazing and covers a lot of this stuff.

They've covered all the prequels

NSFW Language but hilarious.

Here's the direct link rather than the youtube videos, Revenge of the Sith review is also on their http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/

Phantom Menace

Spoiler:

Attack of the Clones

Spoiler:

I hate you, thanks to you I spent two and a half hours watching these videos. Thanks an absolute bunch.

I find Star Wars only remains enjoyable if you ignore all but the original trilogy and anything Bioware/Obsidian put out.

 Manchu wrote:
You mean Jedi and a Senator who had illegally infiltrated sovereign territory for the explicit purposes of espionage? And we know it's not illegal to manufacture or operate a huge droid army.

Even if caught in the act of espionage, you don't go about murdering agents of another government. You give them back, first because your own agents will want to be returned and not murdered when they are caught, and second because that kind of thing often leads to war.

And on the issue of making a robot army, we know there are situations in which it is legal to build robots, but we don't know that it is always legal to build your own droid army. It's entirely possible, plausible even, that you need permission to build your own army, and if you're caught making such an army without that permission, coupled with being in close contact with a cause that's arguing for secession, well that seems a pretty straight forward lead up to open war.

Exactly why they were investing vast sums of money in to a Droid army, and why the Jedi never questioned the Clone army they were just given (never mind that apparently you can order a Clone army on lay-by)... well who the hell knows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
I decided to ask this question after watching an episode of the Clone Wars TV show. It's the one where Padme knows a Separatist senator and they try to work out a peace vote on both sides.

I thought to myself, okay, what would it take to achieve peace here? What would each side want? And then it hit me: if any one knows why this war is going on in the first place, no one has ever bothered to tell the audience. But given Padme's and the Separatist senator's actions in the show, it seems much more likely that no one in-universe has any clue, either.

Very true.

One of the oddest thing about the Star Wars prequels is that while the plotting and characters all play like right out of an old movie serial just like the original films, the background setting in the prequels is convoluted and hints at all kinds of complex background setting... entirely unlike the original trilogy, which had a perfectly simple good vs evil tale in the backgroun, with the only ambiguity being directly between the characters (Vader is villain, but also Luke's father etc).

It uh, obviously didn't work as well


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sturmtruppen wrote:
The Galactic Senate by the time of Phantom Menace is corrupt and full of bureaucrats running it. Palpatine organised the Naboo Blockade by antagonising the Trade Federation with tax laws in the Senate and goading the Federation as Sidious into launching their blockade and invasion on the premise that he would protect the Federation's interests in the Senate. Palpatine was made Chancellor by manipulating Amidala. Then the invasion was foiled and the Viceroy taken into custody.

Which was the first question I had, just reading the opening scrawl for the first movie. When you're annoyed about tax rates, why try and resolve that by placing an embargo on some random planet? You want to force tax concessions, you park your warships around the capital of the people putting the taxes in place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Now, take a look at the prequel Jedi. Just like in the original movies, they have pretty much zero insight into normal emotional experience. They forbid anyone to be in love, for example. And when it wreaks severe psychological havoc on Anakin, no one seems to understand or even be able to figure out what is going on -- even after Anakin goes to Yoda for advice on the matter.

Yeah, that was actually one of the parts of the prequels I liked, that the Jedi and their teaching was flawed, and played a large part in their downfall.

That said, it did lead me to wonder how if Jedi were banned from having relationships, exactly where all those great Jedi family came from.

Watch this



because of bad writing

@sebster:

I wouldn't argue that it is ethical or even prudential to execute captured spies but it's certainly plausible. It's something that spies and spy masters understand is a likely outcome of getting caught. And executing captured spies, much less their prospective execution, hardly supplies the state employing said spies with a justification for war. So none of that can form a legal basis for the Republic's invasion of Geonosis.

About the droid army thing, it's my mistake to have started talking about it as a matter of legality. Whether setting up a droid army under whatever circumstances might be illegal as far as the Republic is concerned is totally immaterial to the Republic declaring war on the Confederacy absent some arms limitation treaty between the parties. Even if such a treaty existed (and we have no reason to believe it did), the Republic would necessarily have violated it by having capacity to invade Geonosis. So that doesn't help us, either.

It seems the answer is something vague about terrorism. But that just raises other unanswered questions. At the beginning of Attack of the Clones we see an alleged act of Separatists terrorism when Senator Amidala's ship is blown up. But wait, isn't Amidala leading the charge against the Military Creation Act? Why would the Separatists target her? Wouldn't it be far more likely that Senator Amidala had been targeted by other senators who supported the bill? Again, we have another strand of Palpatine's plot that could be entirely unraveled by the briefest application of thought.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the galaxy deserved the Empire. And given Bail Organa was the opposition leader, it's only fitting that Alderaan got blown up. If there was anyone with two brain cells to rub together on that planet, no one was electing them to the Senate.