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Fragile wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, what's a normal shooting attack?

The one you make during your shooting phase.

Is that a unit, a model or a weapon? Since you are implying that a shooting attack is something defined where did you gleam this from?

Again? Really?

You have no rules basis liturgies. None.

A normal shooting attack is whatever you would normally be able to fire during the shooting phase.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, what's a normal shooting attack?

The one you make during your shooting phase.

Is that a unit, a model or a weapon? Since you are implying that a shooting attack is something defined where did you gleam this from?

Shooting attack is defined in pages 12 to 15. And since we are talking about Cypher, it would be model. Did you need any more ?

:edit. Technically Cyher would be a unit too

 BarBoBot wrote:
Again? Really?

You have no rules basis liturgies. None.

A normal shooting attack is whatever you would normally be able to fire during the shooting phase.

How about you read my posts or something? I have all of the rules basis for saying everything I've said in this thread. A normal shooting attack is not defined anywhere as firing everything you'd normally be able to fire in the shooting phase as the "you" in that sentence could be 1 of three things.
Page 12, defines shooting attacks as something a unit of models does. It also equates a shooting attack with firing.
Page 13, defines a shooting attack as something a weapon does. It also talks about models firing.

There is two pages that gives three meanings for what a shooting attack is. I'm saying it's not clear by RAW and people shouldn't be saying it's anything concrete. What you rule it as is up to your local TO etc. In my area it's mostly been agreed that it's 1 attack only due to the "a normal shooting attack" line and that it's not called a shooting phase at any point. What you do in your games and house rules is just as valid but also equally wrong.

Fragile. It could also be one of his weapons. Obviously the plasma pistol, only a fool wouldn't use it.
I doubt it's intended that he could fire twice using his fun overwatch powers but I'll leave that to you and your opponent.

LoB.

A shooting attack is clearly defined on page 12. You follow those steps from: Notice that a unit with models armed with ranged weapons can make shooting attacks. You then follow those steps to page 15. Emptied Wound Pool. When the wound pool is empty the shooting attack has been resolved. You then can begin your next shooting attack.

Therefore Cypher can shooting the exact same thing during Overwatch that he can during the shooting phase.

Nothing in your text above even gives an argument as to what a shooting attack is.

Fragile, page 13. Last line of snap shots defines a shooting attack as firing a weapon.
"A shooting attack that cannot be fired..." Models and units fire, weapons are fired.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, page 13. Last line of snap shots defines a shooting attack as firing a weapon.
"A shooting attack that cannot be fired..." Models and units fire, weapons are fired.

It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.

This line? What is it that you think its saying?

So a shooting attack is equated with firing a weapon.
It doesn't say as a Monolith firing it's portal of exile with other weapons.
"any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill" if a unit makes a shooting attack then this cannot refer to a unit as a unit has usually more than one weapon and the rules in the basic section deal with normal units not single model units. Also unit's don't have ballistic skill models do and the example lists a weapon, not a model firing a weapon nor a unit firing multiple weapons including a weapon that cannot be snap shot.

So again, the brb is not consistent with it's use of shooting attack.

Honestly LoB, I have no clue what your trying to argue. That entire section is consistent. A shooting attack is the steps laid out on page 12 from start to finish.

Your trying to find an exception to the rule in the exceptions that they are describing??

Indeed - trying to say "normal shooting attack" isnt the Shooting Attack you would Normally make has no support either. The plain english version of the phrase suffices, for once

No fragile I'm not looking for exceptions, I'm pointing out that that section of the rules is very poorly worded. With shooting attack, shot and firing being used interchangeably for what I can only assume is the same thing but it never clearly says.

Nos I'm not saying the shooting attack isn't anything, I'm asking which of the three things it is. What is the plain english of the phrase when it suffices for multiple uses of guns that don't fit cleanly into the rules?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No fragile I'm not looking for exceptions, I'm pointing out that that section of the rules is very poorly worded. With shooting attack, shot and firing being used interchangeably for what I can only assume is the same thing but it never clearly says.

Nos I'm not saying the shooting attack isn't anything, I'm asking which of the three things it is. What is the plain english of the phrase when it suffices for multiple uses of guns that don't fit cleanly into the rules?

With a (reasonably) firm grasp of the english language, knowing what shot, firing, fired, shooting all mean (discharging a ranged weapon), it's not that hard to figure out.

 Ovion wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No fragile I'm not looking for exceptions, I'm pointing out that that section of the rules is very poorly worded. With shooting attack, shot and firing being used interchangeably for what I can only assume is the same thing but it never clearly says.

Nos I'm not saying the shooting attack isn't anything, I'm asking which of the three things it is. What is the plain english of the phrase when it suffices for multiple uses of guns that don't fit cleanly into the rules?

With a (reasonably) firm grasp of the english language, knowing what shot, firing, fired, shooting all mean (discharging a ranged weapon), it's not that hard to figure out.

And understanding what they all mean as far as the rules are concerned is completely different. Unless you discharge a ranged weapon at your opponents minis every time. I could see you using BB guns, but your opponents might be upset at that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No fragile I'm not looking for exceptions, I'm pointing out that that section of the rules is very poorly worded. With shooting attack, shot and firing being used interchangeably for what I can only assume is the same thing but it never clearly says.

Nos I'm not saying the shooting attack isn't anything, I'm asking which of the three things it is. What is the plain english of the phrase when it suffices for multiple uses of guns that don't fit cleanly into the rules?

With a (reasonably) firm grasp of the english language, knowing what shot, firing, fired, shooting all mean (discharging a ranged weapon), it's not that hard to figure out.

And understanding what they all mean as far as the rules are concerned is completely different. Unless you discharge a ranged weapon at your opponents minis every time. I could see you using BB guns, but your opponents might be upset at that.

I don't know, if I fitted all my models with tiny low powered lasers in their guns, I would think my opponents would think it was awesome.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No fragile I'm not looking for exceptions, I'm pointing out that that section of the rules is very poorly worded. With shooting attack, shot and firing being used interchangeably for what I can only assume is the same thing but it never clearly says.

Nos I'm not saying the shooting attack isn't anything, I'm asking which of the three things it is. What is the plain english of the phrase when it suffices for multiple uses of guns that don't fit cleanly into the rules?

It is not poorly worded. A shooting attack is done with ranged weapons and follows the outline on 12, which is described through 15.

You still have not shown what it is you are arguing. You cited the Monolith as your example, but GW makes it clear that the word "fired" is used as a common use word.

Explain why you think that a shooting attack is not the steps laid out on page 12.

On page 12 a shooting attack is done with ranged weapons so why does page 13 say it's one weapon? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that what a normal shooting attack is is hard to define.

The shooting phase is fine, the rules for it are cleaned up by page in the weapons section and other rules that limit and increase the weapons fired by MCs etc. Overwatch on the other hand has no such clarifications.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
On page 12 a shooting attack is done with ranged weapons so why does page 13 say it's one weapon? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that what a normal shooting attack is is hard to define.

It really is not hard to define.

A "normal shooting attack" would be whatever the model could normally do with a shooting attack in the shooting phase.

How is that complicated?

Very good DR, now is that a page 12 or a page 13 shooting attack? I assume page 13 as page 12 deals with units.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
On page 12 a shooting attack is done with ranged weapons so why does page 13 say it's one weapon? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that what a normal shooting attack is is hard to define.

The shooting phase is fine, the rules for it are cleaned up by page in the weapons section and other rules that limit and increase the weapons fired by MCs etc. Overwatch on the other hand has no such clarifications.

Wait so, where does it say on page 13 that a shooting attack is one weapon?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
On page 12 a shooting attack is done with ranged weapons so why does page 13 say it's one weapon? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that what a normal shooting attack is is hard to define.

It really is not hard to define.

A "normal shooting attack" would be whatever the model could normally do with a shooting attack in the shooting phase.

How is that complicated?

I've been telling him the same thing every time this comes up, but he would rather hear it from someone else and ignore me.

I just don't see the confusion in this one. "Using all the normal rules for shooting" seems pretty clear

Yeah, I really tried to follow the argument one and he really isn't making any sense. I guess he needs to see a sentence somewhere that says "A shooting attack is defined as a unit making all of the shots it can given the amount of guns it is allowed to shoot in that phase" or something, rather than using simple intuition. It's pretty clear, really.

 DeathReaper wrote:

A "normal shooting attack" would be whatever the model could normally do with a shooting attack in the shooting phase.

How is that complicated?

Exalted.

Sometimes I think I'm blessed to live in the area I do because as angry as I get at some of the broken arguments people make here in YMDC. We kind of adopt your last question there as the rule of thumb. "Can we follow this rule in a way that makes sense to all of us? If yes, we do it." It's only as complicated as people seem to want to make it.

If you and your gaming friends agree that it's one per model in overwatch, by all means! As long as you guys agree on that. However, getting in a huff that people take "make a normal shooting attack" to mean they follow all rules for shooting in the shooting phase is a waste of everyone's time, especially here when this topic has been beaten to death. Legitimate question, do you not understand why people believe MCs and Battlesuits get to fire multiple weapons in overwatch? Is extrapolating "normal shooting attack" to mean "follows shooting phase rules" that difficult to understand?

You can understand a side of an argument without agreeing with it. I understand why there are people who don't think you should be able to fire more than one weapon in overwatch, but I believe that was not the intention of the rules using the context of all the other rules in the book.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also in English a shooting attack would easily match the three uses GW used. IE: A squad firing on an enemy, an individual firing at something and a weapon being fired at something.

The paragraph immediately preceding the sentence saying overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack is...

"As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be
attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea".

So the logical extension is that we are talking about a "normal shooting attack" which a "unit" would make.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
On page 12 a shooting attack is done with ranged weapons so why does page 13 say it's one weapon? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that what a normal shooting attack is is hard to define.

The shooting phase is fine, the rules for it are cleaned up by page in the weapons section and other rules that limit and increase the weapons fired by MCs etc. Overwatch on the other hand has no such clarifications.

Nowhere on page 13 does it say that a shooting attack is only one weapon.

Fragile wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
On page 12 a shooting attack is done with ranged weapons so why does page 13 say it's one weapon? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that what a normal shooting attack is is hard to define.

The shooting phase is fine, the rules for it are cleaned up by page in the weapons section and other rules that limit and increase the weapons fired by MCs etc. Overwatch on the other hand has no such clarifications.

Nowhere on page 13 does it say that a shooting attack is only one weapon.

Dose the mini-BRB have that information on page 13?

Mini and brb have same page numbers for the rules.

Fragile wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
On page 12 a shooting attack is done with ranged weapons so why does page 13 say it's one weapon? That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that what a normal shooting attack is is hard to define.

The shooting phase is fine, the rules for it are cleaned up by page in the weapons section and other rules that limit and increase the weapons fired by MCs etc. Overwatch on the other hand has no such clarifications.

Nowhere on page 13 does it say that a shooting attack is only one weapon.

It doesn't, it says:

"It is important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be "fired" as a Snap Shot."

LOB is saying that because "shooting attack" and "fired" are used in the sentence, it means that a "weapon" is making a "shooting attack" because only a "weapon" can be "fired".

I think it's quite a tenuous link, as a "unit" can be "fired" just as much as a "weapon" can be "fired". eg: The Tactical Marine squad fired at the Termagaunts. An object is "fired", and since the "units" can be objects, they can be "fired" the same way a "weapon" can be "fired".

Now, I think the most logical thing is to note that the book does not define "shooting attack" at all, it simply used "shooting attack" in a sentence to refer to snap shots.

IMO, it is clear that the rules for overwatch are talking about a UNIT, thus we are talking about a UNIT making a "normal shooting attack", and since "shooting attack" is not defined explicitly, I would refer to the plain english meaning that the UNIT fires like it normally would fire, thus it can only fire 1 weapon.