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Yes folks, it's this question again.

I'm very much of the opinion that, unless you wear a Crisis Battlesuit or are a monstrous creature (or have some similar wargear/ rule) that you should only be able to fire one weapon, both in the shooting phase and in Overwatch.

However, I recently came across people that were of the notion that you can fire everything in Overwatch. When I turned to the rulebook, I couldn't find a hard and fast ruling either way for either phase. (I'll concede that it was 3AM and I probably wasn't looking too hard. Anyway.)

My question is the age old one: How many weapons can I fire from a standard infantry model (assuming they have more than one to fire, obviously), and how many do I get in overwatch - moreover, where is the evidence either way?

I believe the phrase "An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack" clarifies that you get the same number in Overwatch as you do in a normal shooting attack (I.e., one made in the shooting phase.) Is this right?

Shooting attack is used to describe a unit firing, a model firing and a weapon firing within the shooting rules.

It is very much up in the air.

Everything shooting related (including the basic act of shooting a weapon at all) is refereed to as being done in the shooting phase. So if you don't allow all the normal shooting actions that would take place in the shooting phase (such as a MC shooting 2 weapons) then technically you shouldn't allow any shooting at all.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Everything shooting related (including the basic act of shooting a weapon at all) is refereed to as being done in the shooting phase. So if you don't allow all the normal shooting actions that would take place in the shooting phase (such as a MC shooting 2 weapons) then technically you shouldn't allow any shooting at all.

That's an absurd stance as the rules do not describe overwatch as a shooting phase. Something that is described as "In the shooting phase" doesn't apply to interceptor for the riptide why should it apply for overwatch?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Everything shooting related (including the basic act of shooting a weapon at all) is refereed to as being done in the shooting phase. So if you don't allow all the normal shooting actions that would take place in the shooting phase (such as a MC shooting 2 weapons) then technically you shouldn't allow any shooting at all.

That's an absurd stance as the rules do not describe overwatch as a shooting phase. Something that is described as "In the shooting phase" doesn't apply to interceptor for the riptide why should it apply for overwatch?

Actually, I think it's the only reasonable stance to take.

How many shots can the model make in a normal shooting attack? That's how many.

Pretty straight forward to be honest:

Page 21 - Resolve Overwatch:
"An Overwatch Attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."

Additionally, under Weapons (Page 51), it says:
"Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase."

Being the Overwatch fires all the normal rules for shooting (albeit, snapshots only), it is held by the one-weapon-unless-stated rule.

Meaning that most models can fire 1 weapon.
Models with two pistols can fire both pistols.
MCs and Battlesuits can fire 2 weapons.
Riptides can fire 3 weapons.
Walkers can fire all weapons.

You can fire weapons outside of the shooting phase without it being described as one.
Interceptor, Coteaz etc
In those cases do you get the benefit of things that are only for use "In the shooting phase"?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Everything shooting related (including the basic act of shooting a weapon at all) is refereed to as being done in the shooting phase. So if you don't allow all the normal shooting actions that would take place in the shooting phase (such as a MC shooting 2 weapons) then technically you shouldn't allow any shooting at all.

That's an absurd stance as the rules do not describe overwatch as a shooting phase. Something that is described as "In the shooting phase" doesn't apply to interceptor for the riptide why should it apply for overwatch?

That's the point. Overwatch doesn't describe itself as a shooting phase ergo, you can't shoot during overwatch because shooting is described as being done in the shooting phase as well.

(I'm trying to show that the argument against doing effects such as shooting two guns on a model doesn't work because that argument also invalidates shooting in general)

 CrownAxe wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Everything shooting related (including the basic act of shooting a weapon at all) is refereed to as being done in the shooting phase. So if you don't allow all the normal shooting actions that would take place in the shooting phase (such as a MC shooting 2 weapons) then technically you shouldn't allow any shooting at all.

That's an absurd stance as the rules do not describe overwatch as a shooting phase. Something that is described as "In the shooting phase" doesn't apply to interceptor for the riptide why should it apply for overwatch?

That's the point. Overwatch doesn't describe itself as a shooting phase ergo, you can't shoot during overwatch because shooting is described as being done in the shooting phase as well.

That would be true apart from the express permission to make a shooting attack. If you were right interceptor and other out of phase shooting effects could not work.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Everything shooting related (including the basic act of shooting a weapon at all) is refereed to as being done in the shooting phase. So if you don't allow all the normal shooting actions that would take place in the shooting phase (such as a MC shooting 2 weapons) then technically you shouldn't allow any shooting at all.

That's an absurd stance as the rules do not describe overwatch as a shooting phase. Something that is described as "In the shooting phase" doesn't apply to interceptor for the riptide why should it apply for overwatch?

That's the point. Overwatch doesn't describe itself as a shooting phase ergo, you can't shoot during overwatch because shooting is described as being done in the shooting phase as well.

That would be true apart from the express permission to make a shooting attack. If you were right interceptor and other out of phase shooting effects could not work.

interceptor specifically applies to a weapon, not the model. Idk the wording of coteaz's rule so i can't give a explanation for it

But for overwatch it allows a normal shooting attack. Normal shooting attacks would include shooting phase effects.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yes folks, it's this question again.

I'm very much of the opinion that, unless you wear a Crisis Battlesuit or are a monstrous creature (or have some similar wargear/ rule) that you should only be able to fire one weapon, both in the shooting phase and in Overwatch.

However, I recently came across people that were of the notion that you can fire everything in Overwatch. When I turned to the rulebook, I couldn't find a hard and fast ruling either way for either phase. (I'll concede that it was 3AM and I probably wasn't looking too hard. Anyway.)

My question is the age old one: How many weapons can I fire from a standard infantry model (assuming they have more than one to fire, obviously), and how many do I get in overwatch - moreover, where is the evidence either way?

Page 51 says that "A model can only fire one weapon in the shooting phase"
Other pages describe exceptions to this (Monstrous Creatures, Walkers, Battlesuits)

I believe the phrase "An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack" clarifies that you get the same number in Overwatch as you do in a normal shooting attack (I.e., one made in the shooting phase.) Is this right?

That is probably the most sensible and consistent way to interpret the rules, and the way that most people will indeed interpret this.
However, SOME people (eg, those who attempt to assault a Broadside squad) maintain that exceptions (Eg, Tau Battlesuits "May fire one more weapon in the shooting phase") applies ONLY to the shooting phase, while simultaneously skimming over / willfully ignoring the pg51 note that the restriction on firing one weapon applies only in the shooting phase.

(Also, this is about the 10th time this year that I've seen this thread... can we have a sticky, please?)

Since a shooting attack isn't defined clearly anything predicated on what a shooting attack is cannot hold water.

Ovion wrote:Pretty straight forward to be honest:

Page 21 - Resolve Overwatch:
"An Overwatch Attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."

Additionally, under Weapons (Page 51), it says:
"Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase."

Being the Overwatch fires all the normal rules for shooting (albeit, snapshots only), it is held by the one-weapon-unless-stated rule.

Meaning that most models can fire 1 weapon.
Models with two pistols can fire both pistols.
MCs and Battlesuits can fire 2 weapons.
Riptides can fire 3 weapons.
Walkers can fire all weapons.

Trasvi wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yes folks, it's this question again.

I'm very much of the opinion that, unless you wear a Crisis Battlesuit or are a monstrous creature (or have some similar wargear/ rule) that you should only be able to fire one weapon, both in the shooting phase and in Overwatch.

However, I recently came across people that were of the notion that you can fire everything in Overwatch. When I turned to the rulebook, I couldn't find a hard and fast ruling either way for either phase. (I'll concede that it was 3AM and I probably wasn't looking too hard. Anyway.)

My question is the age old one: How many weapons can I fire from a standard infantry model (assuming they have more than one to fire, obviously), and how many do I get in overwatch - moreover, where is the evidence either way?

Page 51 says that "A model can only fire one weapon in the shooting phase"
Other pages describe exceptions to this (Monstrous Creatures, Walkers, Battlesuits)

I believe the phrase "An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack" clarifies that you get the same number in Overwatch as you do in a normal shooting attack (I.e., one made in the shooting phase.) Is this right?

That is probably the most sensible and consistent way to interpret the rules, and the way that most people will indeed interpret this.
However, SOME people (eg, those who attempt to assault a Broadside squad) maintain that exceptions (Eg, Tau Battlesuits "May fire one more weapon in the shooting phase") applies ONLY to the shooting phase, while simultaneously skimming over / willfully ignoring the pg51 note that the restriction on firing one weapon applies only in the shooting phase.

(Also, this is about the 10th time this year that I've seen this thread... can we have a sticky, please?)

Yeah, sorry for bringing this up... again.

Thought so on both counts though, and I don't see anything that justifies firing more than one weapon in the rules, which (and I am likely being presumptuous here) is something I believe GW would state as an exception to normal shooting rules (like it does with Walkers, MCs, etc.).

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Thought so on both counts though, and I don't see anything that justifies firing more than one weapon in the rules, which (and I am likely being presumptuous here) is something I believe GW would state as an exception to normal shooting rules (like it does with Walkers, MCs, etc.).

The point is that a '(normal) shooting attack' is not ever defined in a manner unambiguous enough to create an unambiguous decision.
Without page 51 in the rules, there would be no directive for the number of weapons that a model can fire. That is the only place that models are restricted to only firing one weapon, and the other places (MC's, Walkers) are explicit exceptions to that rule. Without page 51 you would need to infer the number of weapons which could be fired, and legitimate inferences are thus 0, 1, and All weapons. 0 weapons is preposterous, and All weapons has far more logical weight than 1 weapon.

IF Overwatch does not behave like a shooting phase, then the restriction of 51 does not apply, thus MC's, Battlesuits can fire all weapons in Overwatch (and intercept).
IF Overwatch does behave like a shooting phase, then the restriction of page 51 does apply, AND the exceptions for walkers/MC's/battlesuits also should apply.

UNLESS you believe there is something special about a 'normal shooting attack' which doesn't let you use your battlesuits/MC abilities (thus inferring that all shooting in the shooting phase are abnormal shooting attacks, a quite preposterous idea) OR that you believe the restriction on battlesuits/MC shooting is somehow 'more shooting phase only' than the page 51 'shooting phase only' rulings, which is not supported in the rules. But I have seen players and TO's take both of these unsupported viewpoints.

A normal shooting attack is not ever defined in the BRB, so we fall back on the basic English definition.

Which of course would mean whatever applies to the shooting phase when a model normally shoots, also applies to Overwatch...

 DeathReaper wrote:
A normal shooting attack is not ever defined in the BRB, so we fall back on the basic English definition.

Which of course would mean whatever applies to the shooting phase when a model normally shoots, also applies to Overwatch...

A Shooting attack describes 3 different things but going by close combat's rules, a shooting attack wouldn't be all of a models shots it would be 1 d6 unless otherwise stated, which it thankfully is.

Also in English a shooting attack would easily match the three uses GW used. IE: A squad firing on an enemy, an individual firing at something and a weapon being fired at something.

I'm curious, before the Overwatch-Witchfire FAQ, how many of the people currently arguing that Overwatch=Shooting Phase were then arguing that Overwatch=/=Shooting Phase?

Ovion,
Thank you for reminding me of the wonderful use of the words 'and so on' found within this Rule, I honestly am amazed I forgot all about this little gem. About thrice back, this subject comes up a lot on this board, I did some in-depth research into this very subject. I could only summarize that the problem with the rule lied within those three short words. They make it possible for people to argue over exactly which rules are included in an Over-watch shooting attack. Given how that led long rant about how stupid Game Workshop writers are for thinking a Rule penned with 'and so on' where precise enough to follow....

Really am amazed I forgot that.

We play it in our group that your limited to one shot no matter who/what you are. It is a attack that is in the assault phase. The things that allow those models in question to shoot more then one weapon are specifically in the shooting phase. Not the assault phase. If someone wants to argue that we treat it as if it were a separate shooting phase, who's to stop them from electing to run instead of shoot? You can do that in the shooting phase, correct? It says in the rule book that instead of making a normal shooting attack, that you can elect to run, correct? This would be completely crazy wouldn't it! Yeah... Also, we figure since you don't have enough time to manifest a whichfire for overwatch, how do you have enough time to fire multipal weapons? There is no exact answer and the rules are unclear. I'm not arguing any facts but just bringing up my groups opinions.

Pyrian wrote:
I'm curious, before the Overwatch-Witchfire FAQ, how many of the people currently arguing that Overwatch=Shooting Phase were then arguing that Overwatch=/=Shooting Phase?

What overwatc-witchfire FAQ?



Anyway, the overwatch weapon question really is simple.
Either the rules of shooting phase applies, then MCs and suits gets additional weapons allowed.
Or the rules of the shooting phase do not apply, then everyone can fire all weapons because the regular 1-gun-only limit is also applies only in the shooting phase.

Either way, no escaping the fact tau suits can fire multiple guns, and by the second option you just make everything silly as feth (a tactical squad shooting bolters, bolt pistols AND throwing grenades)

castillo1313 wrote:
We play it in our group that your limited to one shot no matter who/what you are. It is a attack that is in the assault phase. The things that allow those models in question to shoot more then one weapon are specifically in the shooting phase.

As are all the other rules about shooting attacks, like how to resolve them and the limit on only 1 shooting attack per model.

If someone wants to argue that we treat it as if it were a separate shooting phase, who's to stop them from electing to run instead of shoot?

The fact that Overwatch only grants you permission to make a normal shooting attack. Is a run move a normal shooting attack.

castillo1313 wrote:
We play it in our group that your limited to one shot no matter who/what you are. It is a attack that is in the assault phase. The things that allow those models in question to shoot more then one weapon are specifically in the shooting phase. .

The only limitation on how many weapons a model may fire are found ing the shooting phase rules. Please explain why you are including this rule in your houserule, but not the rest of the shooting phase limitations /allowances

There are rules problems if you use the rules as if in the shooting phase, and there are rule problems if you don't as if in the shooting phase.
I concluded a while back sometimes 'shooting phase' at design means THE shooting phase and only the shooting phase, and sometimes it means any time you make a shooting attack. The difficulty comes when you’re left guessing when it means which. We know the first exists (Via FAQ) and we can be pretty sure the second does from this issue.

Some things are genuinly 'phase locked' if you will, but they've used the same wording for more relaxed basic rules.

So yeah. We play it you fire as many and you would normally be allowed to fire if it were the shooting phase.

Oh but didnt you know that you have to ignore all the rules of the shooting phase and define "shooting attack" in order to know how many weapons a model can shoot?

You have to ignore the rule that tells you how many weapons you can fire in the shooting phase, because that's not the rule that tells you how many weapons to shoot. /sarcasm

OR.... You can "use all the normal rules for shooting" like the rule says, and fire as many weapons as you would normally be able to fire during the shooting phase, in overwatch.

 BarBoBot wrote:


OR.... You can "use all the normal rules for shooting" like the rule says, and fire as many weapons as you would normally be able to fire during the shooting phase, in overwatch.

Thank the Emperor for common sense, eh?

So when being charged Cypher can take how many shots?

1- pick either pistol, fire it once
2-fire both pistols with gunslinger
2-fire one pistol twice with his special rule
4-normal shooting attack

Both his special rule and gunslinger mention the shooting phase.

Mavnas wrote:
So when being charged Cypher can take how many shots?

1- pick either pistol, fire it once
2-fire both pistols with gunslinger
2-fire one pistol twice with his special rule
4-normal shooting attack

Both his special rule and gunslinger mention the shooting phase.

What is Cypher's normal attack during the shooting phase ? That is your answer for Overwatch, just fired as Snap Shots.

Fragile, what's a normal shooting attack?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fragile, what's a normal shooting attack?

The one you make during your shooting phase.