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 Harriticus wrote:
You thought wrong.

GW doesn't want you to have fun, because they haven't figured out how to charge for that yet.

Also being part of a hobby from a company that actively is at war with you/hates you isn't very fun.

That being said it's still possible to have fun with this. Ignore GW, and embrace the fluff and buy models off ebay/discount sites. Use older rulebooks that are readily available if you know where to look. Stay away from GW stores. If you cut GW out of the 40k/WHFB experience, you'll find it's actually pretty fun.

Sarcasm, I guess

Thanks for all the responses. I enjoy a good rant and have even been know to throw my toys from the param - believe me that hurts the disposable funds.

I posted in 40k as it is 40k I'm getting back into and most of the unhappiness seems to flow from these fora rather than some of the others.

I do follow the painting and modelling sections and make it a point to vote on the Gallery. I'm not sure whether to be inspired or go and hide under a rock somewhere. There are some truly amazing modellers and artists (I can't really call them painters) on there.

Time for another roll of the dice!

We are a slightly masochistic crew at times no doubt. But I was at a wedding recently of a friend who is an avid steam train enthusiast. I was seated at a table with two guys from his club and we had a really good chat about all things obsessive. It was funny to hear such similarities from another hobby obsessive group. They moaned non stop about scrap yards charging a fortune for parts and rail company's charging the world to let them run trains on their club days.
I'm also a farmer and if you want a crew of people who love and obsess over their work and moan about and yet adore every aspect of it go sit with a bunch of farmers it's a lifestyle job.
With out sounding all yoda, with great devotion comes much concern.

 Trickstick wrote:
The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

This is always bandied around as truth when it comes up, when this is just as much an assumption as anything else. In my neck of the woods the same complaints that people post on dakka regularly are what I hear regularly in local stores. My FLGS doesn't even sell GW products anymore unless someone orders them because the general concensus is no one wants to play their overpriced games in the store. I still play, but have a table at home and play with those who have a similar play style. Haven't done the "find random person at store for game" thing in ages because I am tired of the inevitable rules arguments over differing interpretations of the rules because they are *still* poorly written. Have another store locally that opened up as a "GW gaming store" that needs to rely on MtG sales and events to pay the rent because the GW games aren't doing it either. 1 night each week devoted to 40k and WFB each and then 5 nights of the week devoted to Magic the Gathering does not a "GW gaming store" make in my opinion. Also even on the mini gaming days there seems to be an even number and growing of tables with Warmahordes on them as 40k or WFB as well. It used to be GW product lines and gamers filled game stores and helped keep the game store coffers filled. It doesn't work that way in a lot of places anymore.

Just because those of us who use these forums are a minority in no way means the opinions shared here are not existent in the really real world and also inconsequential.

I applaud the OP with his sentiment, but his solutions are not as simple as he wants them to be.

Skriker

If you truly need to ask other people why this hobby is fun...you should probably quit...

Wings of Purity wrote:
If you truly need to ask other people why this hobby is fun...you should probably quit...

I think it's fun - just not sure about the rest of you

XenosTerminus wrote:
I don't agree with their policies generally, and it does seem like they rarely make an effort to reach out to the community for feedback.

I had heard that GW's forums were shut down, though, because they were outright out of control with the trolling and negativity. Can you blame them for not wanting to deal with the constant barrage of cynicism? I imagine as a moderator or anyone tasked with maintaining a semblance of civility that it was not an enjoyable experience. Extreme measure perhaps, but not completely unreasonable.

Yes I can blame them because other companies do it every day and are quite successful at it. The key is taking the time to understand the flow and content of negative posts to get to the root causes and do something about them and not just shut everything down because your customer base isn't so super-awesome thrilled and happy as you thought they were. Dealing with customer complaints has never been a pretty job, but businesses that want to keep customers do it anyway.

Companies like Battlefront and privateer have forums and their customers also post up negative things about the companies, the games, the minis and anything else too. The difference is that both of those companies do the most important thing that GW never did: Actually paid attention to what their customers said. If there was a problem indemnic to the game it would lead to a new edition to fix said problems, but NOT CHANGE THINGS THAT WORKED FINE. Complaints about the overpowered nature of a force in a Battlefront book lead to weeks of discussion with players, investigation by battlefront and an eventual fix to the problem that also included adhesive backed inserts to put into purchased books to cover over the old, incorrect values and rules with the new fixes. The inserts were all free and when flipping through the book it is hard to spot the fixes quickly. The change also impacted a 2nd book released right around the same time as the discussion and to allay any new complaints from players they applied the same fix to that book in the same format.

That kind of thing could work for GW too: Imagine if when necron flyer spam appeared on the meta, GW had forums and people complained about how broken it was, GW discussed it with players, tested it and worked on it and fixed it by raising points for things to make them not so undercosted and take away their advantage. The problem would have been fixed and people would not still be complaining about it 2 years later. Instead GW ignores such things and fixes nothing and people just stay angry.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:
Just because those of us who use these forums are a minority in no way means the opinions shared here are not existent in the really real world and also inconsequential.

I didn't say that the negative opinions that appear on forums was not representative of people in the general gaming population. What I meant in my statement was that you can't conclude that the proportion of people who hold and opinion on forums is equivalent to the proportion holding that opinion in general. There is no statistical link between the two. I am not trying to say that such opinions are valid/invalid, just pointing out the error in extrapolating forum opinions to a larger demographic.

I have lots of fun with 40K. Love the models, love the game.

I spent last weekend at Warhammer World, great time.

I've been gaming for over 25 years and I find the online rants against GW and their prices hilairious.

 Ugavine wrote:
I have lots of fun with 40K. Love the models, love the game.

I spent last weekend at Warhammer World, great time.

I've been gaming for over 25 years and I find the online rants against GW and their prices hilairious.

Bully for you.

My sig says it all lol.

StewRat wrote:
I know I am still a noob here but I have been war-gaming for 4 decades on and off. Listening to the general tone of posts, I'm not sure why some members are still in the hobby?

Dude, I am in agreement with you.

However, you can't make sense on nonsense. These gaming blogs are 80% moan n groan cry sessions. Gotta weed out and ignore the haters. I was amazed when I got into a back and forth with a member over a topic, only to have him tell me 30 posts in "...that's why I stopped playing 40k 12 years ago..." BUT HE STILL follows GW so he can gripe about GW! WTF??????? He even said "...just because I don't know the current (40k) rules, doesn't exclude me from commenting on (how stupid and broken) they are..." Huh?
Just enjoy the game, ignore the negative haters, and take what you can from these hobby blogs....

I have fun with 40k but there is still wishing that they could do things better. If you never voice your opinion then no change will ever happen. If they just undated their site with answers to questions once a month I'd be really happy instead of having unclear rules that they won't even give you answers too ever.

I play Patherfinder too but that rules system is less balanced than even 40k. Whatever play if you decide to stick with it get what you want out of it.

XenosTerminus wrote:
I had heard that GW's forums were shut down, though, because they were outright out of control with the trolling and negativity. Can you blame them for not wanting to deal with the constant barrage of cynicism? .

But that was exactly the problem: They didn't even try to deal with that 'constant barrage'.


GW viewed their forums as a place for their fans to talk to each other about GW's games, rather than as an avenue for GW to communicate with those fans. So beyond the occasional post from one of the Games Devs in the Development forum, the forums were largely ignored by GW. They just left it up to their volunteer moderators to keep the place on track and delete anything inappropriate.

So when people started to get discontented with aspects of what GW was doing, and their complaints went unanswered and seemingly just ignored, the complaints get steadily louder. Instead of taking the opportunity to show some positive action to the community, GW shut it out and, eventually, shut it down, with the excuse that other forums could do the job better. Which simply shows that even right at the end, GW had no clue what company forums are for.

Privateer gets it. WotC gets it. Mongoose gets it. Mantic gets it. GW never has.

StewRat wrote:


This should be fun. Whether your thing is painting, playing or some mix of the two you are spending your cash on figures, paints, rules, cases and so on. If you aren't having fun why are you doing it?

Rhetorical question, for sure. Again, agreed.

If you drive a cr@ppy car, stop crying about, and get a new car. Move on.

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
If you drive a cr@ppy car, stop crying about, and get a new car. Move on.

On the other hand, if you drive a car that you like, but that has some flaws, and you spend some of your free time on the internet, you might find yourself on a discussion board about that type of car, where you might discuss with other people who like that car the things that you and they do and don't like about it...

Again, pointing out that you dislike the fact that the boot won't close on cold mornings doesn't mean that you hate the car. Just that you dislike that aspect of it.

StewRat wrote:
I know I am still a noob here but I have been war-gaming for 4 decades on and off. Listening to the general tone of posts, I'm not sure why some members are still in the hobby?

This should be fun. Whether your thing is painting, playing or some mix of the two you are spending your cash on figures, paints, rules, cases and so on. If you aren't having fun why are you doing it?

Rules. New versions of rules have ALWAYS caused controversy whether Ancients, Napoleonic or 40k. There are always "winners" and "losers" in any change. If you and your group don't like the new rules, keep playing the old ones. Alternatively, create your own house rules that meet your groups aspirations.

Figures. There are other manufacturers who make compatible figure. Use them rather than the more expensive, poorer quality one that seem to cause so much angst.

Let's get back to enjoying the hobby. if things need changing, then change them, don't carp about businesses who are doing there best to keep their shareholders happy. If you, their customer, aren't happy/satisfied then find another manufacturer, rule-writer etc.

Happy gaming! And Happy Monday.

This is definitely the most belligerent 40k fansite/board. If you're looking for discussion try one of the other popular boards. this one is more for entertainment than anything.

sand.zzz wrote:
This is definitely the most belligerent 40k fansite/board. If you're looking for discussion try one of the other popular boards. this one is more for entertainment than anything.

Dakka is not even close to being the most belligerent anything. There are all sorts of forums, generally those with looser moderation, that get far more hostile on a regular basis than Dakka ever has.


I think what causes a lot of the perceived friction is simply Dakka's size. On smaller forums, due to the dominance of a few posters, the board tends to take a distinct pro-GW or anti-GW stance, and people who don't fit the general attitude of the board don't tend to stick around unless they really like arguing.

Dakka, due to its size, has a larger mix of people from both sides of the fence. There's possibly a certain anti-GW bias overall these days (it's certainly perceived as such in some quarters, although in the past it has waxed and waned depending on just what GW were up to at the time) but there are plenty of pro-GW posters on the boards, as well as a whole slew of people sitting squarely in the middle of the whole mess. And when you put a bunch of people who think GW can do no wrong in the same room as a bunch of people who think GW can do no right... it's not surprising that things get heated.

Fun? FUN!? The Hobby is serious business!

The fun is getting entertainment from reading the comments from the pro-GW and anti-GW camp!

StewRat, it's a solid post. I have a lot of fun, I play a lot of systems and my gripes are few.

as someone who has played for forty years, what do you do to keep your hobby interests restored and replenished?

 insaniak wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
This is definitely the most belligerent 40k fansite/board. If you're looking for discussion try one of the other popular boards. this one is more for entertainment than anything.

Dakka is not even close to being the most belligerent anything. There are all sorts of forums, generally those with looser moderation, that get far more hostile on a regular basis than Dakka ever has.

Of the handful of 40k fansites that get regular traffic, this is without a doubt the most belligerent. I'm not including loosely moderated imageboards and club forums in that group.

Well, you can enjoy the hobby, have fun and still have plenty reasons for ranting and complaining.

Look at orks, who seem to get their next codex allready in 7th edition (last one was 4th). And lack models for a unit that has been in the dex since dunno? 3rd ed. at least.

Look at SoB who still have quite ugly metal models from 10+ years ago and seem to be shunned by other companies as well (at least i've never seen any decent proxies for SoB from other manufacturers).

Then there are of course the usual human perception faults: "everything was better before ...." and "everything new is uncomfortable, therefore bad"

Stop telling me to have fun! If I want a fething ulcer over getting beaten by a tween that fielded grey Marines with no weapons, I will!

Seriously though, using the internet and by a lesser extent, forums, to get a weigh in on the mood of a community is generally hit or miss. What hits you do get will never be unbiased or neutral opinions, you'll get scathing hatred or apologetic fanboyism. Add in the anonymity factor the interwebs supplies, people's pennant for attention, and various other psychological issues and you'll get the picture you're currently getting.

Honestly, Dakka is one of the better forums I frequent when it comes to the hobby. The Supereme Overlords are not really all that interested in censorship and most of the members have something pretty constructive to offer about any discussion.

Also, I hate Mondays as well. And cats, cats suck.

The hobby is plenty fun, hence why we all play, however when it comes time to voice my opinion on whether I'm satisfied with the game's current state, I will be stating an honest opinion, and that is that there is far more that could be improved. I do have enough fun as is to keep me playing - nothing GW has done or will do, can stop me from enjoying painting up my models, enjoying the feeling of badass-ness I get deploying a fully painted army of buttkick on the table, and enjoying the strategical back-and-forth of each match, regardless of whether I win it or lose, and regardless to whether the outcome was affected by unbalanced units or individual playskill. But that being said, there could definitely be much more fun to be had with better balanced rulesets and a bit more thought put into releases before implementing changes, and at the price cost of even a codex ($90 in my country) I think people have a right to expect, and at the very least yearn for, a high standard of quality.




People will complain, and there is much to complain about - don't let anyone tell you their grievances are misplaced. However, if it was enough to make people not enjoy the game, you wouldn't be hearing so much of it in the first place, and everyone would have already packed their bags up and gone home. No, I believe the reason that there is such complaint is BECAUSE we enjoy the hobby so much, and unfortunately there is just so much justification for criticism towards what could easily become a much much better game.

If someone picks wargaming as his hobby w40k is more or less the only options to pick . The only game where you can be sure to find opponents even in smaller cities . Doesn't cost as much as WFB does. Two other are more local things. People realy like Warmahordes here , but because of problems with getting models the community is made out of vets and it is very hard for someone new to start the game . There are no starters in shops , so unless someone can buy online he will struggle to get in to the game . Other games like inifity are dynamic and cheaper then w40k , but require a lot of space and terrain very few people have .

So people play w40k while hating it , unless they play the top army.

 insaniak wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
This is definitely the most belligerent 40k fansite/board. If you're looking for discussion try one of the other popular boards. this one is more for entertainment than anything.

Dakka is not even close to being the most belligerent anything. There are all sorts of forums, generally those with looser moderation, that get far more hostile on a regular basis than Dakka ever has.


I think what causes a lot of the perceived friction is simply Dakka's size. On smaller forums, due to the dominance of a few posters, the board tends to take a distinct pro-GW or anti-GW stance, and people who don't fit the general attitude of the board don't tend to stick around unless they really like arguing.

Dakka, due to its size, has a larger mix of people from both sides of the fence. There's possibly a certain anti-GW bias overall these days (it's certainly perceived as such in some quarters, although in the past it has waxed and waned depending on just what GW were up to at the time) but there are plenty of pro-GW posters on the boards, as well as a whole slew of people sitting squarely in the middle of the whole mess. And when you put a bunch of people who think GW can do no wrong in the same room as a bunch of people who think GW can do no right... it's not surprising that things get heated.

I think it's mostly this but also quite a bit of selection bias.

You will remember things more when they don't jive with you. They stand out more because invoke a reaction.

You thought wrong.

 Frankenberry wrote:

Also, I hate Mondays as well. And cats, cats suck.

HERESY! KILL HIM IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR OF CATKIND!

 insaniak wrote:

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
If you drive a cr@ppy car, stop crying about, and get a new car. Move on.

On the other hand, if you drive a car that you like, but that has some flaws, and you spend some of your free time on the internet, you might find yourself on a discussion board about that type of car, where you might discuss with other people who like that car the things that you and they do and don't like about it...

Again, pointing out that you dislike the fact that the boot won't close on cold mornings doesn't mean that you hate the car. Just that you dislike that aspect of it.

Maybe a car analogy is too simple.

Lets say you go to a certain church (game system, like 40k), that has a minister you like (ceo, publisher, game team, etc...), and a doctrine (40k rules & codex you chose) you agree with, and the minister interprets passages the way youwould and do, and you like everyone at the church (game store or gw bunker) A couple years later the minister takes on another church in another country. The new minister doesn't apoeal to you as much (new ceo, game crwative team, new wd layout...) . Okay, no prob. Then his sermons, interpretation of passages, the core doctrines (rules) meanings by him, all are slighty or really different from how you saw them and some old friends leave, and new people arrive to the church (game store). Eventually, the newbies are in sync with the new minister, and the newbies out number the old, and you and the old congregation feel pushed out, or left out, or something. You get less focused on the spiritual journey you are on, and more focused on the minister, politics of the church, talk about how it was vs how it is now, etc... You can either stay at that church for years to come, and moan and groan about it, becoming a cancer to that church community, or find another church that fulfills the spiritual needs you have.

That was my point...

I do find it extremely annoying that people assume anyone complaining about GW must not like 40k, or not want to play it ("durr, if you hate it so much, why do you play?"). It's also annoying to assume that the people lurking in forums all have a positive or neutral view of the topic at hand, and only those with negative opinions are posting.

I've been playing 40k for nearly 20 years, own half a dozen fully painted armies and piles and piles of terrain, and I have in the recent past complained a great deal about GW's practices, about the rules for 40k, about the direction of the game, missteps in the fluff, etc. For all the game's myriad problems, I still played the hell out of it, and I complained so loudly because I genuinely wanted things to get better - I wanted GW to be more responsive to customers, I wanted them to straighten out the rules and balance codexes and update old models, and so on and so forth.

But as of just recently, I'm moving to the UK for a new job, and I'm leaving all my 40k stuff behind (with friends or in storage) and honestly I doubt I'll want it back. I have grown increasingly disillusioned with 40k over the past 6 months or so, and I guess at some point in the last month or two I just gave up. Still love the models, still love the fluff, still think the game can be fun, but I don't care to play. I don't care enough to ship any armies with me, I don't care enough to try to find a new gaming group, and I especially don't care enough to try to keep up with Escalation, Stronghold Assault, Knights, another new edition, units that are Day-1-broken and require supplements to function, and on and on.

And it's not for lack of wanting to game - I'm considering bring my Battlefleet Gothic collection, and starting DZC and X-Wing, because they're smaller, tighter, cheaper games that I can store easily and won't require constant investment and upkeep to be playable. I love painting and I love gaming, and while I have this opportunity for a clean break, I'm realizing there are better ways to invest my hobby budget.

So I no longer really care what happens to 40k. It means I don't get riled up about this or that news, which means I don't care enough to post negative views (barring this one, which I think is more of a meta-view on my lack of negativity).

GW as a company, and 40k as a game system, have problems, and they generate a lot of polarized opinions. Having people who still play the game but complain about its flaws is a sign that people still care enough about the game to hope it gets better. If they stop complaining, they've probably stopped caring, and that is much worse for the 40k community.