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 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
If you drive a cr@ppy car, stop crying about, and get a new car. Move on.

On the other hand, if you drive a car that you like, but that has some flaws, and you spend some of your free time on the internet, you might find yourself on a discussion board about that type of car, where you might discuss with other people who like that car the things that you and they do and don't like about it...

Again, pointing out that you dislike the fact that the boot won't close on cold mornings doesn't mean that you hate the car. Just that you dislike that aspect of it.

Maybe a car analogy is too simple.

Lets say you go to a certain church, that has a minister you like, and a doctrine you agree with, and the minister interprets passages the way youwould and do, and you like everyone at the church. A couple years later the minister takes on another church in another country. The new minister doesn't apoeal to you as much. Okay, no prob. Then his sermons, interpretation of passages, the core doctrines meanings by him, all are slighty or realky different from how you saw them and some old friends leave, and new people arrive to the church. Eventually, the newbies are in sync with the new minister, and the newbies out number the old, and you and the old congregation feel pushed out, or left out, or something. You get less focused on the spiritual journey you are on, and more focused on the minister, politics of the church, talk about how it was vs how it is now, etc... You can either stay at that church for years to come, and moan and groan about it, becoming a cancer to that church community, or find another church that fulfills the spiritual needs you have.

That was my point...

I think this example is too localized to be entirely accurate. 40k is more like an entire religion, or perhaps a particular branch of a faith. It is akin to Catholicism (good example since 40k pulls a lot of its imagery from there), whereas Warmachine could be like Presbyterianism or perhaps Hinduism (or whatever example floats your boat), and so on and so on.

And while you may like all the tenants of the church, how the masses are run, enjoy your local priests, you may have issues with the those in charge of the overall church. But you still connect wit the core beliefs of the church, you just don't like the direction upper management is going in. I think in case that simply abandoning the community is not a satisfying answer; you enjoy a lot of what you have already, there are just some issues that you feel need to be addressed. And as more and more people come to a similar opinion about some dissatisfaction, that opinion grows stronger and the call to make a change becomes greater.

I don't think there is anything wrong with people complaining about 40k- they are obviously invested in the game and I'd rather have people speak up about things they feel are undesirable rather than everyone remaining quiet. And some people may think to themselves "why do all these people complain all the time?" but I always keep in mind that they are complaining in our name, in the name of the gamers. And I may not always agree with what they are saying, but I beleive they are free to say what they wish and I will defend them as such, because I know that if I had complaints about 40k or GW that I felt were relevant, I would appreciate people genuinely considering my concerns.

EDIT: Clarification- the religions each game represents are not important, it's just a metaphor.

StewRat wrote:
I know I am still a noob here but I have been war-gaming for 4 decades on and off. Listening to the general tone of posts, I'm not sure why some members are still in the hobby?

This should be fun. Whether your thing is painting, playing or some mix of the two you are spending your cash on figures, paints, rules, cases and so on. If you aren't having fun why are you doing it?

Rules. New versions of rules have ALWAYS caused controversy whether Ancients, Napoleonic or 40k. There are always "winners" and "losers" in any change. If you and your group don't like the new rules, keep playing the old ones. Alternatively, create your own house rules that meet your groups aspirations.

Figures. There are other manufacturers who make compatible figure. Use them rather than the more expensive, poorer quality one that seem to cause so much angst.

Let's get back to enjoying the hobby. if things need changing, then change them, don't carp about businesses who are doing there best to keep their shareholders happy. If you, their customer, aren't happy/satisfied then find another manufacturer, rule-writer etc.

Happy gaming! And Happy Monday.

Imho, op post was soley a statement and rhetorical. I agree with op.

I agree with the OP, tonnes of people just moan and whinge and complain and generally just ruin other peoples' experiences, sometimes there's so much negativity that I actually wish the community wasn't so connected.

 bu11etmagn3tt wrote:
[... You can either stay at that church for years to come, and moan and groan about it, becoming a cancer to that church community, or find another church that fulfills the spiritual needs you have.

And one of those options has the potential, however small, to result in the things you dislike about the church you like being fixed (particularly if enough people are all complaining about the same stuff you are), while the other simply results in you having to find another church in the hope that you will like it as much as you did the first one before it changed...

To Whine, to complain.
Its "Whining," not the numerous versions. Before this conversation continues let's settle on the correct spelling first.

And then let's settle on the fact that not everyone that makes complaints is whining. There are legitimate criticisms of GW and its game and ignoring them does nobody any good.
That said, we should really find a constructive way to deal with all of this. Every time I propose something to help it gets shot down in a hail of winging...er whinning, um...winhing...oh darn.

There are a number of things (half a dozen at most) I would like to see changed at GW in relation to the way 6th ed plays. I totally agree with the majority of complainers who argue about the things that are important and relevant and that need to be changed.

However...

When there is a new release there seems to be allot less emphasis on the positives compared to the negatives. I generally think if no one is arguing about an aspect of the release (looks, power level, fluff, price etc..) it means GW did a good to great job on it! It's just unfortunate (and interwebs nature) that the negatives are pronounced.

bodazoka wrote:
It's just unfortunate (and interwebs nature) that the negatives are pronounced.

That is by no means an 'internet thing'.

Walk into a bar and ask the room what sort of job the government is doing. See how many positive comments you get compared to the litany of everything they are doing wrong. It's human nature, not just the internet, for people to talk the loudest about the things they dislike, rather than those that they like.

 Brother SRM wrote:
This is a really fun hobby for me and I've loved it dearly my entire life. People use the Internet to vent their frustrations, and a lot of folks let that kind of become their regular tone unfortunately. There are folks who just complain for the sake of complaining (many of whom don't even play the game in question they're complaining about) but I'd like to think most people who are complaining are folks who enjoy the hobby well enough and are just venting once in a while. I know I don't spend as much time here as I used to because there's an awful lot of negativity and misinformed posting, but when I find folks who genuinely like what they're doing and are excited about it, it keeps me interested.

If you want a less pessimistic spin on things, listen to the Independent Characters podcast: http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/
They're generally positive, and the community there is fairly small, but thriving and generally more optimistic about the hobby. There have been a few discussions and episodes about this sort of topic lately.

Thanks SRM! You beat me to it...

I agree with the OP whole-heartedly, even though I freely admit that I think GW are bastards. Life is too short to spend doing something you hate, after all.

 insaniak wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
It's just unfortunate (and interwebs nature) that the negatives are pronounced.

That is by no means an 'internet thing'.

Walk into a bar and ask the room what sort of job the government is doing. See how many positive comments you get compared to the litany of everything they are doing wrong. It's human nature[/i], not just the internet, for people to talk the loudest about the things they dislike, rather than those that they like.

Until a well endowed girl in a tight shirt and mini-skirt walks by, then the topic is changed but i agree, is it not about the government, then it is about how the referee screwed your team in the last match or the unfair happenings at work because it i all "their" fault.

 hellrath wrote:
I agree with the OP, tonnes of people just moan and whinge and complain and generally just ruin other peoples' experiences, sometimes there's so much negativity that I actually wish the community wasn't so connected.

aside from the typical slow with no social skills, there is almost no negativity in the real world community. occasionally the topic of kit prices comes up and you hear some grumbles, or a jab at some silly gw policy. but that's about it.

usually people are just enjoying themselves playing, or just socializing. if reality was anything like the internet that would really suck.

 insaniak wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
It's just unfortunate (and interwebs nature) that the negatives are pronounced.

That is by no means an 'internet thing'.

Walk into a bar and ask the room what sort of job the government is doing. See how many positive comments you get compared to the litany of everything they are doing wrong. It's human nature[/i], not just the internet, for people to talk the loudest about the things they dislike, rather than those that they like.

I disagree, whilst you would get the same negative response the internet exasperates it (please put emphasis on where I said "the negatives are pronounced").

People are less emotive in real life, Id also argue they are more willing to agree on aspects of someones argument. In saying that.. the internet is a very hard place to get across exactly what your trying to say so that may have something to do with it.

And just so you know I didn't vote for this government haha

sand.zzz wrote:
aside from the typical slow with no social skills, there is almost no negativity in the real world community. occasionally the topic of kit prices comes up and you hear some grumbles, or a jab at some silly gw policy. but that's about it.

usually people are just enjoying themselves playing, or just socializing. if reality was anything like the internet that would really suck.

You've been extremely lucky with your local gaming community then. Because every gaming club that I've played at in the last 15 years (and thanks to moving a lot, there have been a few) has had plenty of negativity where GW is concerned. At least two of them eventually just stopped playing 40K entirely.

All these people complaining on the internet about the state of the game? They have exactly the same opinion of the game offline.

The only difference the internet makes is that people are more likely to take a relatively innocuous comment and blow it up all out of proportion. It's impossible for someone to just dislike something... they must be a 'hater' who is frothing mad about every little thing.

Well, I like the fluff and I like talking about 40k (for example, on these forums).

I hate how GW makes rules, doesn't do a thing about balance and laughs in my face while doing so.

So I put my 6000+ points of orks, six boxes full of terrain, and my gaming table in the basement and got myself a couple of WH40k pc games and books. That way I can still enjoy 40k without pulling my hair out about how GW actively refuses to create an enjoyable tabletop experience.

The can go feth themselves with their 30€ Ghazghkull Thrakka and 80+15€ battlewagons until they manage to get their rules and balance in line, no matter how awesome or bad our next codex is going to be. It's not like I don't have any other hobbies that are preying on my wallet.

I've been on DakkaDakka since late 2004. I also used to be a member of the Eye of Terror (official GW forums) until they got canned.

DakkaDakka has become more negative towards GW. The reasons are good ones, though not just "h8ting" for the sake of it.

Since 2004, GW have;

Closed down EoT.
Stopped global campaigns.
Made Games Day a travesty.
Stopped support for clubs.
Stopped tournaments.
Stopped support for independent tournaments.
Made relentless, higher than inflation, price rises.
Stopped specialist games.

I think the point is made and I could go on if needed. There is nothing in the list that is in any way "Great News" for veteran (or even recruit level) players. A lot of the "fun" aspects of being part of the community around GW has been taken away. Why wouldn't people complain?

There is also stuff that GW have done well. A lot of the new model kits are really good, I think from the DE relaunch onwards they have been excellent.

These get due praise from DakkaDakka -- see the reaction to Knight Imperials for example. It's often the same people who are negative about the bad stuff that are fulsome in praise for the good stuff.

I keep seeing people say GW have stopped tournaments? What tournaments have they stopped?

I only ask because every time I've been at Warhammer World recently there has a been a tournament on. There was even a Blood Bowl Tournament a few months back.

Games Workshop stopped running the Grand Tournaments in the US in 2008 I believe; as to when they stopped in Europe I am unsure. There were multiple venues for the Grand Tournaments and again I believe they were part of the basis of Games Day; people gamed, or competed in painting competitions via the Golden Demon, and of course guests could speak with staff, make purchases, etc.

Warhammer World is the headquarters of Games-Workshop so their staff are safe(r) from shrinkage and they are given enough funding for tournaments. However it appears that they are the last bastion of GW-sanctioned events.

There have been rumours, only vague speculation really, I must point out, that Warhammer World is due for the axe.

I do recall hearing about that, hence the safe(r) ...in reality nothing is safe with GW

I would certainly be consistent with all the other cost-cutting measures. Still, I hear people reference Warhammer World relatively frequently (in terms of the UK players); it will be interesting to see what ends up happening and how people react if it goes to the chopping block.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There have been rumours, only vague speculation really, I must point out, that Warhammer World is due for the axe.

This is incorrect, and in fact the opposite is true as you will see/hear soon.

I certainly hope so. It's one of the (increasingly few) things GW still have that resonates with veterans.

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
There have been rumours, only vague speculation really, I must point out, that Warhammer World is due for the axe.

This is incorrect, and in fact the opposite is true as you will see/hear soon.

That's good to know. Warhammer World is a great day out for GW fans, I always have the best time there.