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I know I am still a noob here but I have been war-gaming for 4 decades on and off. Listening to the general tone of posts, I'm not sure why some members are still in the hobby?

This should be fun. Whether your thing is painting, playing or some mix of the two you are spending your cash on figures, paints, rules, cases and so on. If you aren't having fun why are you doing it?

Rules. New versions of rules have ALWAYS caused controversy whether Ancients, Napoleonic or 40k. There are always "winners" and "losers" in any change. If you and your group don't like the new rules, keep playing the old ones. Alternatively, create your own house rules that meet your groups aspirations.

Figures. There are other manufacturers who make compatible figure. Use them rather than the more expensive, poorer quality one that seem to cause so much angst.

Let's get back to enjoying the hobby. if things need changing, then change them, don't carp about businesses who are doing there best to keep their shareholders happy. If you, their customer, aren't happy/satisfied then find another manufacturer, rule-writer etc.

Happy gaming! And Happy Monday.

Fun is subjective.

Some people have fun getting into heated discussions, complaining or even just trolling.

also i hate Mondays.

Dont get upset by internet echochamber of hate...its still fun hobby...

I think 40k's rules are horrible, I think the prices are outrageous and I despise Games Workshop's business practices. However, I still enjoy painting and seeing those purdy models on the battlefield. You don't have to like what Games Workshop does to enjoy the hobby.

I'm with you, Stew.

I wouldn't take the overall tone of internet people as a subset of the hobby as a whole. Thing is, people upset with things are always the loudest.

Hang out in the Painting and Modeling section sometime. You'd probably come away with a whole different feel for the fun people are having with the hobby, as it's mostly people who are actively doing things with the hobby rather than worrying about the state of the game!

I still have fun - but I mainly read the fluff, build and paint. Playing a few games here and there I can see where the rage comes in.... but it is mostly just opponents ruining the fun.

You have opened Pandora's Box, or to be more fitting from a 40k fluff perspective, cracked a Tesseract Labyrinth.

These kind of topics always devolve into people either complaining about 40k, or defending it.

But as was already stated, fun is subjective. I agree with you though that if someone doesn't find any enjoyment out of something it's not terribly sensible to sit around and gripe about it as if this forum is some sort of protest in front of GW headquarters.

To each their own- maybe that is fun to them.

I've asked people this question... most of the responses... are I've put in to much money/time to just walk. I will never be able to get what I put into it.. etc...

I guess I'm different. If I get tired of the game... I'd sell my stuff in a heartbeat and move on to something else. The money lost was money I spent having fun and I don't get any of that money back so it doesn't bug me.

The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

 Trickstick wrote:
The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

Exalted for truth.

Check out the Painting & Modelling, as recommended, or the Historicals or Other Mini Games forums.

It's only GW that provokes such bitterness and negativity.

 Trickstick wrote:
The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

Agreed, although it seems to be a shared opinion by the most vocal naysayers that they are in the 'majority'. Just look in any of the topics that discuss the rules or balance of the game for examples. A lot of people would have you believe they are part of some inner circle or council that speaks collectively for the 40k community and can judge the game based on arbitrary merits.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

Agreed, although it seems to be a shared opinion by the most vocal naysayers that they are in the 'majority'. Just look in any of the topics that discuss the rules or balance of the game for examples. A lot of people would have you believe they are part of some inner circle or council that speaks collectively for the 40k community and can judge the game based on arbitrary merits.

I only speak for myself.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Check out the Painting & Modelling, as recommended, or the Historicals or Other Mini Games forums.

It's only GW that provokes such bitterness and negativity.

I was going to pick up on something similar.

Are we to assume that because this was posted in 40K Discussion that we are limiting "the hobby" to 40K?

Because there's a lot of people very happy in their wargaming that only really find GW related stuff in any way angering or frustrating.

Also, as regard to how much of a majority do or don't post on forums, it can be a folly to assume that a minority is wrong, or a popular opinion is the most appropriate one. Just for example, at time of writing, 10x as many people are viewing these forums as those who are logged in and registered, so Dakka's reach far exceeds it's grasp, and I'm sure Legoburner could furnish you with figures, but the traffic passing through Dakka must surely equate to a solid percentage of the worldwide wargaming community, certainly sufficient to gauge a rough idea, if not a scientifically relevant cross section.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Check out the Painting & Modelling, as recommended, or the Historicals or Other Mini Games forums.

It's only GW that provokes such bitterness and negativity.

I was going to pick up on something similar.

Are we to assume that because this was posted in 40K Discussion that we are limiting "the hobby" to 40K?

Because there's a lot of people very happy in their wargaming that only really find GW related stuff in any way angering or frustrating.

Also, as regard to how much of a majority do or don't post on forums, it can be a folly to assume that a minority is wrong, or a popular opinion is the most appropriate one. Just for example, at time of writing, 10x as many people are viewing these forums as those who are logged in and registered, so Dakka's reach far exceeds it's grasp, and I'm sure Legoburner could furnish you with figures, but the traffic passing through Dakka must surely equate to a solid percentage of the worldwide wargaming community, certainly sufficient to gauge a rough idea, if not a scientifically relevant cross section.

Right, but realize that even if the reach as you suggested reaches further than one would initially assume, if you compare the quantity of people that post overly negative things about the hobby on a regular basis when compared to say the amount of people that are just browsing/do not post, the percentage is skewed drastically against the 'negative'.

And that is really what some people are advocating here is that these forums (to the untrained eye) tend to paint an overall unrealistic and overly negative opinion on GW/40k in general.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

Agreed, although it seems to be a shared opinion by the most vocal naysayers that they are in the 'majority'. Just look in any of the topics that discuss the rules or balance of the game for examples. A lot of people would have you believe they are part of some inner circle or council that speaks collectively for the 40k community and can judge the game based on arbitrary merits.

I don't think there's any sort of agreement in place, I think most people just say what they think.

There are certainly a few names that pop up repeatedly, but as a regular poster for a few years now, you certainly see more and more names popping up, and even a few that start out optimistic and get gradually worn down by stuff.

As I've said, minority or not, I'd contend it is a sufficiently large minority that it would be worth GWs time taking notice of, as the majority of what most people call for wouldn't impact on those that weren't bothered at all, but then would unlock a further X% of people who are interested in GW product, but either don't buy, or deliberately limit their purchases, as a result of their dissatisfaction with aspects of GW or 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Check out the Painting & Modelling, as recommended, or the Historicals or Other Mini Games forums.

It's only GW that provokes such bitterness and negativity.

I was going to pick up on something similar.

Are we to assume that because this was posted in 40K Discussion that we are limiting "the hobby" to 40K?

Because there's a lot of people very happy in their wargaming that only really find GW related stuff in any way angering or frustrating.

Also, as regard to how much of a majority do or don't post on forums, it can be a folly to assume that a minority is wrong, or a popular opinion is the most appropriate one. Just for example, at time of writing, 10x as many people are viewing these forums as those who are logged in and registered, so Dakka's reach far exceeds it's grasp, and I'm sure Legoburner could furnish you with figures, but the traffic passing through Dakka must surely equate to a solid percentage of the worldwide wargaming community, certainly sufficient to gauge a rough idea, if not a scientifically relevant cross section.

Right, but realize that even if the reach as you suggested reaches further than one would initially assume, if you compare the quantity of people that post overly negative things about the hobby on a regular basis when compared to say the amount of people that are just browsing/do not post, the percentage is skewed drastically against the 'negative'.

And that is really what some people are advocating here is that these forums (to the untrained eye) tend to paint an overall unrealistic and overly negative opinion on GW/40k in general.

Sure, but compare the equally skewed population of Warmachine, X Wing or Infinity and see if you find a similar attitude.

This is what happens when I spend too much time on this forum. I always start complaining about the people who are complaining. And here I am now, complaining about the people who complain about the people who complain. In the end, that's all dakka really is, a place where wargamers come to complain about the faults with the system. If you want to find a positive setting, go to your FLGS and have a face to face conversation with someone. You'll find that people's opinions are a lot more balanced in the real world than the internet.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's only GW that provokes such bitterness and negativity.

Exactly. Nobody has ever complained about MTG or warmahordes.

... wait.

Anyways, fun for some people is complaining about things, especially on the internet. Buying in to something they don't like gives them access to complain about stuff.

 azreal13 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

Agreed, although it seems to be a shared opinion by the most vocal naysayers that they are in the 'majority'. Just look in any of the topics that discuss the rules or balance of the game for examples. A lot of people would have you believe they are part of some inner circle or council that speaks collectively for the 40k community and can judge the game based on arbitrary merits.

I don't think there's any sort of agreement in place, I think most people just say what they think.

There are certainly a few names that pop up repeatedly, but as a regular poster for a few years now, you certainly see more and more names popping up, and even a few that start out optimistic and get gradually worn down by stuff.

As I've said, minority or not, I'd contend it is a sufficiently large minority that it would be worth GWs time taking notice of, as the majority of what most people call for wouldn't impact on those that weren't bothered at all, but then would unlock a further X% of people who are interested in GW product, but either don't buy, or deliberately limit their purchases, as a result of their dissatisfaction with aspects of GW or 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Check out the Painting & Modelling, as recommended, or the Historicals or Other Mini Games forums.

It's only GW that provokes such bitterness and negativity.

I was going to pick up on something similar.

Are we to assume that because this was posted in 40K Discussion that we are limiting "the hobby" to 40K?

Because there's a lot of people very happy in their wargaming that only really find GW related stuff in any way angering or frustrating.

Also, as regard to how much of a majority do or don't post on forums, it can be a folly to assume that a minority is wrong, or a popular opinion is the most appropriate one. Just for example, at time of writing, 10x as many people are viewing these forums as those who are logged in and registered, so Dakka's reach far exceeds it's grasp, and I'm sure Legoburner could furnish you with figures, but the traffic passing through Dakka must surely equate to a solid percentage of the worldwide wargaming community, certainly sufficient to gauge a rough idea, if not a scientifically relevant cross section.

Right, but realize that even if the reach as you suggested reaches further than one would initially assume, if you compare the quantity of people that post overly negative things about the hobby on a regular basis when compared to say the amount of people that are just browsing/do not post, the percentage is skewed drastically against the 'negative'.

And that is really what some people are advocating here is that these forums (to the untrained eye) tend to paint an overall unrealistic and overly negative opinion on GW/40k in general.

Sure, but compare the equally skewed population of Warmachine, X Wing or Infinity and see if you find a similar attitude.

I can agree with your sentiment. Some people have different expectations, standards, or definitions of fun which can drastically change individual frustration levels or levels of acceptance (lets face it- any game that needs improvement often requires acceptance from its userbase). I am not suggesting it is unacceptable to expect more from a company/franchise, just paralleling your view of GW and its direction is with seeing the negativity- they are both tiring to us in different ways. I just live life by the universal truth that being overly negative only makes things worse (and conversely less enjoyable). If half the people that speak out against everything the dislike about GW spend half as much time trying to find ways to enjoy the hobby (or find alternatives they enjoy) I think a bigger shift in the game would occur overall.

Regarding your comment on other game systems- people complain on every forum. It doesn't matter how tight a ruleset or how widely renown/praised something is, there will always be a handful of people that make it a point to find something negative to point out. Perhaps the quantity is less, but the other games are also not as widely renown or popular, so statistically the comparisons are very similar.

Yes, I agree that the Painting and Modeling, showcase forums are a happy place to go to when you just want to enjoy our shared hobby.
Every so often I just hang out there and admire the creativity and hard work people have put into their models.

XenosTerminus wrote:

Spoiler:

 azreal13 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
The vast majority of people involved in the hobby do not touch forums, we are very much a minority. Add to that the fact that satisfied people are less likely to post and it can seem like the majority of people think badly of the game, although this is in no way representative of people as a whole. It would be like using a person shouting on a street corner as representative of the entire public.

I'm not saying that people's negative views are right or wrong, just that it would be incorrect to view them as representative of a larger population.

Agreed, although it seems to be a shared opinion by the most vocal naysayers that they are in the 'majority'. Just look in any of the topics that discuss the rules or balance of the game for examples. A lot of people would have you believe they are part of some inner circle or council that speaks collectively for the 40k community and can judge the game based on arbitrary merits.

I don't think there's any sort of agreement in place, I think most people just say what they think.

There are certainly a few names that pop up repeatedly, but as a regular poster for a few years now, you certainly see more and more names popping up, and even a few that start out optimistic and get gradually worn down by stuff.

As I've said, minority or not, I'd contend it is a sufficiently large minority that it would be worth GWs time taking notice of, as the majority of what most people call for wouldn't impact on those that weren't bothered at all, but then would unlock a further X% of people who are interested in GW product, but either don't buy, or deliberately limit their purchases, as a result of their dissatisfaction with aspects of GW or 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Check out the Painting & Modelling, as recommended, or the Historicals or Other Mini Games forums.

It's only GW that provokes such bitterness and negativity.

I was going to pick up on something similar.

Are we to assume that because this was posted in 40K Discussion that we are limiting "the hobby" to 40K?

Because there's a lot of people very happy in their wargaming that only really find GW related stuff in any way angering or frustrating.

Also, as regard to how much of a majority do or don't post on forums, it can be a folly to assume that a minority is wrong, or a popular opinion is the most appropriate one. Just for example, at time of writing, 10x as many people are viewing these forums as those who are logged in and registered, so Dakka's reach far exceeds it's grasp, and I'm sure Legoburner could furnish you with figures, but the traffic passing through Dakka must surely equate to a solid percentage of the worldwide wargaming community, certainly sufficient to gauge a rough idea, if not a scientifically relevant cross section.

Right, but realize that even if the reach as you suggested reaches further than one would initially assume, if you compare the quantity of people that post overly negative things about the hobby on a regular basis when compared to say the amount of people that are just browsing/do not post, the percentage is skewed drastically against the 'negative'.

And that is really what some people are advocating here is that these forums (to the untrained eye) tend to paint an overall unrealistic and overly negative opinion on GW/40k in general.

.

Sure, but compare the equally skewed population of Warmachine, X Wing or Infinity and see if you find a similar attitude.

I can agree with your sentiment. Some people have different expectations, standards, or definitions of fun which can drastically change individual frustration levels or levels of acceptance (lets face it- any game that needs improvement often requires acceptance from its userbase). I am not suggesting it is unacceptable to expect more from a company/franchise, just paralleling your view of GW and its direction is with seeing the negativity- they are both tiring to us in different ways. I just live life by the universal truth that being overly negative only makes things worse (and conversely less enjoyable). If half the people that speak out against everything the dislike about GW spend half as much time trying to find ways to enjoy the hobby (or find alternatives they enjoy) I think a bigger shift in the game would occur overall.

Regarding your comment on other game systems- people complain on every forum. It doesn't matter how tight a ruleset or how widely renown/praised something is, there will always be a handful of people that make it a point to find something negative to point out. Perhaps the quantity is less, but the other games are also not as widely renown or popular, so statistically the comparisons are very similar.

Sure, people will complain about everything given opportunity.

The difference with other games and companies is they have feedback mechanisms in place, they listen to their customers (who most, presumably, use the minority communication method of the Internet in one form or another) and either take action through FAQs, or explain their reasoning.

GW's method is almost literally fingers in the ears, la, la, la, I can't here you. Stop caring so much, just roll a 4+ and carry on!

There are few things that will more reliably turn a reasonable human being into a frothing, bezerk, maniac than feeling aggrieved and it appearing that their complaints are feeling in deaf ears.

It is this pressure cooker that GW have created which explodes all over the forums here, and not the Covus Belli, PP or FFG ones.

Just for the record, I don't self identify as "pro" or "anti" GW, I simply state my opinion on the topic at hand. If that makes me appear "anti" to a third party, then I guess GW haven't done a lot for me to get excited about recently.

StewRat wrote:
. If you aren't having fun why are you doing it?

You're making the all-too-common mistake of assuming that seeing the flaws in something means that someone isn't enjoying it.

I enjoy painting and modelling. I enjoy playing 40K... but that doesn't mean that there aren't things about the 40K system, or about the company that produces the game, that I dislike.

 azreal13 wrote:
Sure, people will complain about everything given opportunity.

The difference with other games and companies is they have feedback mechanisms in place, they listen to their customers (who most, presumably, use the minority communication method of the Internet in one form or another) and either take action through FAQs, or explain their reasoning.

GW's method is almost literally fingers in the ears, la, la, la, I can't here you. Stop caring so much, just roll a 4+ and carry on!

There are few things that will more reliably turn a reasonable human being into a frothing, bezerk, maniac than feeling aggrieved and it appearing that their complaints are feeling in deaf ears.

It is this pressure cooker that GW have created which explodes all over the forums here, and not the Covus Belli, PP or FFG ones.

Just for the record, I don't self identify as "pro" or "anti" GW, I simply state my opinion on the topic at hand. If that makes me appear "anti" to a third party, then I guess GW haven't done a lot for me to get excited about recently.

I don't agree with their policies generally, and it does seem like they rarely make an effort to reach out to the community for feedback.

I had heard that GW's forums were shut down, though, because they were outright out of control with the trolling and negativity. Can you blame them for not wanting to deal with the constant barrage of cynicism? I imagine as a moderator or anyone tasked with maintaining a semblance of civility that it was not an enjoyable experience. Extreme measure perhaps, but not completely unreasonable.

 insaniak wrote:

StewRat wrote:
. If you aren't having fun why are you doing it?

You're making the all-too-common mistake of assuming that seeing the flaws in something means that someone isn't enjoying it.

I enjoy painting and modelling. I enjoy playing 40K... but that doesn't mean that there aren't things about the 40K system, or about the company that produces the game, that I dislike.

I like this quote. It is relevant to my interests.

PS: Oh, and to the topic starter. Thanks for the happy Monday wishes. Same to you! It's going pretty well at this point. It would be going even better if I hadn't woken up semi-hungover this morning.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Sure, people will complain about everything given opportunity.

The difference with other games and companies is they have feedback mechanisms in place, they listen to their customers (who most, presumably, use the minority communication method of the Internet in one form or another) and either take action through FAQs, or explain their reasoning.

GW's method is almost literally fingers in the ears, la, la, la, I can't here you. Stop caring so much, just roll a 4+ and carry on!

There are few things that will more reliably turn a reasonable human being into a frothing, bezerk, maniac than feeling aggrieved and it appearing that their complaints are feeling in deaf ears.

It is this pressure cooker that GW have created which explodes all over the forums here, and not the Covus Belli, PP or FFG ones.

Just for the record, I don't self identify as "pro" or "anti" GW, I simply state my opinion on the topic at hand. If that makes me appear "anti" to a third party, then I guess GW haven't done a lot for me to get excited about recently.

I don't agree with their policies generally, and it does seem like they rarely make an effort to reach out to the community for feedback.

I had heard that GW's forums were shut down, though, because they were outright out of control with the trolling and negativity. Can you blame them for not wanting to deal with the constant barrage of cynicism? I imagine as a moderator or anyone tasked with maintaining a semblance of civility that it was not an enjoyable experience. Extreme measure perhaps, but not completely unreasonable.

So ask yourself the question, what begat the trolling and negativity in the first place?

Without wanting to get involved in a circular discussion, or a chicken and egg debate, other companies manage to have an online presence where customers can communicate just fine

Those same companies also seem to have a genuine desire to fix things that are broken, whereas GW seem to find it easier to close the door in our face and turn up the stereo.

 azreal13 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Sure, people will complain about everything given opportunity.

The difference with other games and companies is they have feedback mechanisms in place, they listen to their customers (who most, presumably, use the minority communication method of the Internet in one form or another) and either take action through FAQs, or explain their reasoning.

GW's method is almost literally fingers in the ears, la, la, la, I can't here you. Stop caring so much, just roll a 4+ and carry on!

There are few things that will more reliably turn a reasonable human being into a frothing, bezerk, maniac than feeling aggrieved and it appearing that their complaints are feeling in deaf ears.

It is this pressure cooker that GW have created which explodes all over the forums here, and not the Covus Belli, PP or FFG ones.

Just for the record, I don't self identify as "pro" or "anti" GW, I simply state my opinion on the topic at hand. If that makes me appear "anti" to a third party, then I guess GW haven't done a lot for me to get excited about recently.

I don't agree with their policies generally, and it does seem like they rarely make an effort to reach out to the community for feedback.

I had heard that GW's forums were shut down, though, because they were outright out of control with the trolling and negativity. Can you blame them for not wanting to deal with the constant barrage of cynicism? I imagine as a moderator or anyone tasked with maintaining a semblance of civility that it was not an enjoyable experience. Extreme measure perhaps, but not completely unreasonable.

So ask yourself the question, what begat the trolling and negativity in the first place?

Without wanting to get involved in a circular discussion, or a chicken and egg debate, other companies manage to have an online presence where customers can communicate just fine

Those same companies also seem to have a genuine desire to fix things that are broken, whereas GW seem to find it easier to close the door in our face and turn up the stereo.

This is also the same company who dislikes/frowns upon literal free advertising and hype generation via closed door policies before releases/a hush hush mentality with retailers. It's not terribly shocking to me that they chose the path they did, right or wrong.

They have some outright strange business practices, no doubt. Despite all of this, though- I still don't find it productive or even meaningful to complain incessantly.

You thought wrong.

GW doesn't want you to have fun, because they haven't figured out how to charge for that yet.

Also being part of a hobby from a company that actively is at war with you/hates you isn't very fun.

That being said it's still possible to have fun with this. Ignore GW, and embrace the fluff and buy models off ebay/discount sites. Use older rulebooks that are readily available if you know where to look. Stay away from GW stores. If you cut GW out of the 40k/WHFB experience, you'll find it's actually pretty fun.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Sure, people will complain about everything given opportunity.

The difference with other games and companies is they have feedback mechanisms in place, they listen to their customers (who most, presumably, use the minority communication method of the Internet in one form or another) and either take action through FAQs, or explain their reasoning.

GW's method is almost literally fingers in the ears, la, la, la, I can't here you. Stop caring so much, just roll a 4+ and carry on!

There are few things that will more reliably turn a reasonable human being into a frothing, bezerk, maniac than feeling aggrieved and it appearing that their complaints are feeling in deaf ears.

It is this pressure cooker that GW have created which explodes all over the forums here, and not the Covus Belli, PP or FFG ones.

Just for the record, I don't self identify as "pro" or "anti" GW, I simply state my opinion on the topic at hand. If that makes me appear "anti" to a third party, then I guess GW haven't done a lot for me to get excited about recently.

I don't agree with their policies generally, and it does seem like they rarely make an effort to reach out to the community for feedback.

I had heard that GW's forums were shut down, though, because they were outright out of control with the trolling and negativity. Can you blame them for not wanting to deal with the constant barrage of cynicism? I imagine as a moderator or anyone tasked with maintaining a semblance of civility that it was not an enjoyable experience. Extreme measure perhaps, but not completely unreasonable.

So ask yourself the question, what begat the trolling and negativity in the first place?

Without wanting to get involved in a circular discussion, or a chicken and egg debate, other companies manage to have an online presence where customers can communicate just fine

Those same companies also seem to have a genuine desire to fix things that are broken, whereas GW seem to find it easier to close the door in our face and turn up the stereo.

This is also the same company who dislikes/frowns upon literal free advertising and hype generation via closed door policies before releases/a hush hush mentality with retailers. It's not terribly shocking to me that they chose the path they did, right or wrong.

They have some outright strange business practices, no doubt. Despite all of this, though- I still don't find it productive or even meaningful to complain incessantly.

I think complaining incessantly is a somewhat harsh characterisation of most posters, but don't underestimate the catharsis some will find in finding kindred spirits or venting at people who are prepared to disagree.

Speaking for myself, I'm not so overinvested for GW actions to really make an impact on my life as a whole, although I will confess to a degree of frustration when they come up with a great concept, then feth up the execution, which seems to have been a common occurrence recently.

I, like many others, want GW to succeed, I want them to become some global household name, where dropping the fact I play 40K in a bar will suddenly result in all the alpha females beginning to drift towards me. The fact that they are so oddball in their approach, and that "good enough" seems to be the mantra when it comes to everything they do, when they have a product with so much unfulfilled potential and no apparent desire to exploit it, just irritates me, just like when you see some rich kid with everything they could possibly want totally fail to appreciate what they have.

 insaniak wrote:

StewRat wrote:
. If you aren't having fun why are you doing it?

You're making the all-too-common mistake of assuming that seeing the flaws in something means that someone isn't enjoying it.

I enjoy painting and modelling. I enjoy playing 40K... but that doesn't mean that there aren't things about the 40K system, or about the company that produces the game, that I dislike.

Insaniak's right on the money with this observation. I enjoy the HH series very much, but am growing to hate story arcs that have anything to do with the Cabal or the perpetuals. that doesn't mean I'll throw down a book that mentions it, though.

This is a really fun hobby for me and I've loved it dearly my entire life. People use the Internet to vent their frustrations, and a lot of folks let that kind of become their regular tone unfortunately. There are folks who just complain for the sake of complaining (many of whom don't even play the game in question they're complaining about) but I'd like to think most people who are complaining are folks who enjoy the hobby well enough and are just venting once in a while. I know I don't spend as much time here as I used to because there's an awful lot of negativity and misinformed posting, but when I find folks who genuinely like what they're doing and are excited about it, it keeps me interested.

If you want a less pessimistic spin on things, listen to the Independent Characters podcast: http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/
They're generally positive, and the community there is fairly small, but thriving and generally more optimistic about the hobby. There have been a few discussions and episodes about this sort of topic lately.