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 Peregrine wrote:


2) Your examples of existing laws only cover malicious crimes, not accidents or ignorance.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Manslaughter(Involuntary Manslaughter) covers accidents and ignorence(AKA: Stupidity)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Manslaughter(Involuntary Manslaughter) covers accidents and ignorence(AKA: Stupidity)

That depends on meeting the burden of proof for criminal negligence. A license (with appropriate training and testing) covers misuse that doesn't reach that level, or doesn't reach it convincingly enough that it can be prosecuted effectively.

 Frazzled wrote:

Licensing is never about responsbiity, at least not in the US. Have you seen our licensed drivers?!?!?!?!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ive been almost killed by far more "dumbassery" via motor vehicles then I have via guns

Exactly. I've never been injured on a range (not including an exploding gun) but I've been in plenty of accidents.

I think that is an argument for stricter driving test and better licensing and enforcement of cars rather than the other way around. By all accounts the US driving test is a joke in comparison to the UK.

I don't know if it's the military training, but I find it hard to imagine being unaware that a gun is loaded. Something in my minds snaps into place and the mentality is "HOT" as soon as a magazine is even put in, let alone actually loaded. Seeing people storing weapons with a round in the chamber is a huge red flag in my head. I wouldn't even store a magazine loaded, much less a rifle, regardless of how secure it is. In a way, there's a feeling your whole life, and the lives of those around you is dependent on that selector switch being on safe when you're live. Even with imitation firearms, like airsoft or paintball, safety is paramount.

it's just something you should instinctively be aware of , I think. There are a LOT of stupid people who own guns though, and a lot of people who were not brought up with guns and never took the time to learn weapons safety (or proper shooting technique, but that's another issue).

You say that but hundreds of people a year get shot because someone didn't know a gun was loaded.

Even if trained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSTIV2esa-k

We also instill "muzzle awareness"

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You say that but hundreds of people a year get shot because someone didn't know a gun was loaded.

Even if trained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSTIV2esa-k

Did he really shoot himself in the foot with a .40 +AP? I can't believe it. No way he could just keep it rolling like that after being shot in the foot. He must have just barely grazed his boot or something.

Kind of pathetic that he asked someone off camera to verify that it was unloaded, and neither of them noticed that there was a round in the chamber, in a room full of people.

Saw this interview today on the BBC Website… Something about this guy makes me want to bitchslap him…

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26386434

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
. I wouldn't even store a magazine loaded, much less a rifle, regardless of how secure it is.

I keep my pistol in my safe with the magazine loaded but separate. I can't imagine in a home-invasion, or i heard a noise and maybe a burglar type issue, I'll have time to load up a mag; what's wrong with keeping a magazine loaded?

We're use to it and their not?

 Ouze wrote:

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
. I wouldn't even store a magazine loaded, much less a rifle, regardless of how secure it is.

I keep my pistol in my safe with the magazine loaded but separate. I can't imagine in a home-invasion, or i heard a noise and maybe a burglar type issue, I'll have time to load up a mag; what's wrong with keeping a magazine loaded?

Well one quick safe has a full loaded .44 mag. The other has a loaded but not cocked 9mm with two spare mags sitting there.
At the other house I have a loaded .380 but not cocked in a chest within hands reach of the comfy chair I sit in, and a fully loaded Wingmaster by the bed, also not cocked.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

 Steve steveson wrote:

I'm not saying it is, all I'm saying is that I agree with you that responsible owners are not the problem. But that dose not mean you don't need to deal with the irresponsible ones. Same with cars, but we try and deal with that before they have an accident. That doesn't always happen, but it is better than letting everyone drive how they like until they crash.

Actually, that seems to be basically, EXACTLY what they do with automobiles. We "train" people to drive a multi-ton machine, give them a multiple-guess test, a "driving test" and send them on their merry way. Beyond that, we have laws on the books prohibiting things like drink driving, or depending on your locality, the use of phones whilst operating a vehicle, etc. HOWEVER, all those laws dont fix the problem of being a dumbass, or sheer stupid. All these laws deal with consequences AFTER someone is caught in the act, or gets in a wreck, etc.

So, ultimately I feel that while certain licenses are OK, or necessary, guns are not in that category; And just because a person has a license, does not mean that they aren't going to be stupid with it. That goes with driving, insurance, stock brokering, cutting hair, etc.

I still workout with my body armor on. Keeping all 15 mags loaded and body plates in slots. When the economy collapse and its everyone for themselves....I aim to misbehave in the right way and await the coming of our new Glorious Leader Kronk at DakkaDakka Fortress of Debauchery

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You say that but hundreds of people a year get shot because someone didn't know a gun was loaded.

Even if trained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSTIV2esa-k

Those kinds of negligent discharges are 100% preventable, and easily so.

Government can't possibly prevent people from being dumbasses. Any attempt to try will be...well...dumbassed.

This is an education issue. Since liberals have tried (and succeeded, unfortunately) in removing all firearms education from public school systems, it's no wonder that accidents happen. People raised around guns are far less likely to shoot themselves accidentally.

 Hordini wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
You say that but hundreds of people a year get shot because someone didn't know a gun was loaded.

Even if trained.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSTIV2esa-k

Those kinds of negligent discharges are 100% preventable, and easily so.

Exalted.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Government can't possibly prevent people from being dumbasses. Any attempt to try will be...well...dumbassed.

People said the same thing about drunk driving but we have drastically cut that down in the last 40 years.

 Frankenberry wrote:
I think the simple response to all of this is: you can't fix stupid. Regardless of the amount of safety's you put in place people will still think that it can't happen to them, or that they're smarter than that, etc.

I think this is the rub of it. People are pretty stupid. And not just specific people who are stupid all the time, but most people at some point or another do something pretty stupid. And just sometimes that has tragic circumstances. And that means that any society that loves guns is just going to end up with guns in the hands of people who are, at that moment in time, being very stupid.

It's why the video in the OP left me cold - you think the founding fathers never saw anyone do someting stupid? We're talking about an age with very little schooling, limited access to books, and almost the entire population working in menial jobs... the Foundind Fathers would have seen stupid on a daily basis.

The real difference between then and now is that we have begun to think that every misfortune is preventable. Gone are the days when you had 8 kids and figured 3 should get to adulthood and secure your lineage, now we have just 2 and then spend every moment worrying about all the scary things on the news that might happen to them.

Risk is now unacceptable, but unfortunately we really haven't figured out how to have a sensible conversation about balancing risk against removing fun things from our society. Try listening to a discussion on speed limits, you'll hear people shouting 'dangerous lunatics' on one side, and 'nanny state revenue raisers' on the other, without almost no-one trying to explain what the real speeding risks. The gun debate, if anything, is even sillier, full of nonsense about protecting our children on one side (as if primary school kids are anywhere near a significant part of the death toll), and shouts about freedom and the dangers of cars on the other.

Which is, I think, a different kind of stupid, and probably just as dangerous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Government can't possibly prevent people from being dumbasses. Any attempt to try will be...well...dumbassed.

Yeah, everyone, this is exactly what I'm getting at in my post above. There is just so much silliness in the debate. Actual, sensible stuff never gets discussed because it gets drowned out in stuff like this.

This is an education issue. Since liberals have tried (and succeeded, unfortunately) in removing all firearms education from public school systems, it's no wonder that accidents happen. People raised around guns are far less likely to shoot themselves accidentally.

It's the fault of them durn liberals. Or possibly the decline of gun awareness is due to something a lot more sensible, such as the decline in the rural working population (who by the nature of their jobs had to know gun safety), replaced by suburbanite gun owners.

 Jihadin wrote:
I still workout with my body armor on. Keeping all 15 mags loaded and body plates in slots. When the economy collapse and its everyone for themselves....I aim to misbehave in the right way and await the coming of our new Glorious Leader Kronk at DakkaDakka Fortress of Debauchery

I do this because I'm forced to, but it makes sense. The resistance you gain and the familiarity of wearing body armor (assuming IOTV here) in situations like running and hell, even doing pull-ups is valuable.

 Ahtman wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Government can't possibly prevent people from being dumbasses. Any attempt to try will be...well...dumbassed.

People said the same thing about drunk driving but we have drastically cut that down in the last 40 years.

That actually fits the militiaman's agenda. Drunk driving is not down due to "education." Its down due to severe penalties, and unconstitutional road sweeps of all drivers. Thats what we are arguing for (except the unconstitutional part).

 sebster wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Government can't possibly prevent people from being dumbasses. Any attempt to try will be...well...dumbassed.

Yeah, everyone, this is exactly what I'm getting at in my post above. There is just so much silliness in the debate. Actual, sensible stuff never gets discussed because it gets drowned out in stuff like this.

This is an education issue. Since liberals have tried (and succeeded, unfortunately) in removing all firearms education from public school systems, it's no wonder that accidents happen. People raised around guns are far less likely to shoot themselves accidentally.

It's the fault of them durn liberals. Or possibly the decline of gun awareness is due to something a lot more sensible, such as the decline in the rural working population (who by the nature of their jobs had to know gun safety), replaced by suburbanite gun owners.

Time to prove your theory on the decline of "gun awareness," or cease calling others' posts "silliness."

http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/Firearmaccidentsreport.pdf

Generally, accidental firearms deaths have been on a steady decline since the 50's. The greatest effect, in the mid 70's, coincides with state-mandated requirements for hunter safety courses.


I know that as an Australian, you expect the government to shake it for you after you go to the bathroom, but we do things a bit differently here in America.

 Ouze wrote:

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
. I wouldn't even store a magazine loaded, much less a rifle, regardless of how secure it is.

I keep my pistol in my safe with the magazine loaded but separate. I can't imagine in a home-invasion, or i heard a noise and maybe a burglar type issue, I'll have time to load up a mag; what's wrong with keeping a magazine loaded?

Yeah... all the magazines on my AR-10 are loaded. What's the magazine going to do, walk across the room and insert itself into the firearm?

AR-10 eh? How's the recoil on that?

Cool video.

However, please god can we stop comparing guns to cars.
1. There are far more cars in comparison to guns and they are in constant use. Think of the amount of time you spend driving, and how many other people are doing it, and the amount of time you spend using a gun and the number of others doing it. The numbers are vastly different, so comparing raw numbers of auto related deaths to gun related deaths, or even numbers per head of population or something, is ridiculous.
2. Cars are a requirement to live and work in many parts of the US, guns are not in most areas. You could argue they are required for defense in some places.

That said I'm pro gun control in Europe but not in the US. It seems to me that you can't really get the cat back in the bag in the US, and posters here have convinced me that the background checks and so on are mostly as good as they can be in many states- states with ridiculous regulations are outliers.
But I can't excuse poor statistical arguments!

 Da Boss wrote:
Cool video.

However, please god can we stop comparing guns to cars.
1. There are far more cars in comparison to guns and they are in constant use. Think of the amount of time you spend driving, and how many other people are doing it, and the amount of time you spend using a gun and the number of others doing it. The numbers are vastly different, so comparing raw numbers of auto related deaths to gun related deaths, or even numbers per head of population or something, is ridiculous.
2. Cars are a requirement to live and work in many parts of the US, guns are not in most areas. You could argue they are required for defense in some places.

That said I'm pro gun control in Europe but not in the US. It seems to me that you can't really get the cat back in the bag in the US, and posters here have convinced me that the background checks and so on are mostly as good as they can be in many states- states with ridiculous regulations are outliers.
But I can't excuse poor statistical arguments!

In the US, there are actually more guns. There are 300mm firearms in the US.

 Frazzled wrote:
AR-10 eh? How's the recoil on that?

Recoil? What's that?

Smooth as could be.

My Remington 887 when firing 3.5" shells though... oooof...

 Frazzled wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Cool video.

However, please god can we stop comparing guns to cars.
1. There are far more cars in comparison to guns and they are in constant use. Think of the amount of time you spend driving, and how many other people are doing it, and the amount of time you spend using a gun and the number of others doing it. The numbers are vastly different, so comparing raw numbers of auto related deaths to gun related deaths, or even numbers per head of population or something, is ridiculous.
2. Cars are a requirement to live and work in many parts of the US, guns are not in most areas. You could argue they are required for defense in some places.

That said I'm pro gun control in Europe but not in the US. It seems to me that you can't really get the cat back in the bag in the US, and posters here have convinced me that the background checks and so on are mostly as good as they can be in many states- states with ridiculous regulations are outliers.
But I can't excuse poor statistical arguments!

In the US, there are actually more guns. There are 300mm firearms in the US.

Point still stands!
How many of those are in use at any one time!

Well, your argument falls. There were 5 million reported car accidents in the USA in 2010.

You don't understand statistics.

 Da Boss wrote:
You don't understand statistics.

Really? I guess those years of regression analysis I did, didn't take.
it helps if you make a statistical argument first.