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BA don't have the bodies to absorb much damage. Take advantage.

Run 3 Medusa's w/ Primaris Psyker and 2 Divination Inquisitors and spam as many bodies as possible with a few meltas or plasmas scattered around.

Instant win for IG.

Lucarikx

 Ailaros wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:Please show me a BA force that can outshoot that at 2k.

Librarian - combi-melta
Librarian

Assault Squad (5) - meltagun
Assault Squad (5) - meltagun
Assault Squad (5) - meltagun
Assault Squad (5) - meltagun

Sternguard (5) - 5x combi-meltas, drop pod

Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons
Predator - twin-linked lascannon, 2x lascannons

ADL - lascannon

That's one example of how BA can do shooting and still have better assault than a guard list.

This puts down over 14 lascannon hits per turn, and that's before you consider the melta weapons.

BA can do shooty just fine.

What are the librarians doing with out jump packs apart from giving StW away? What happens to your scoring once 4 basilisk large blasts, 18 plasma, 6 melta, 30 heavy bolter, marbo and 9 tl lascannon shots decimate your 20 marines in 1 turn? How are your 19 lascannon shots going to kill 50 scoring models, their transports, the artillery and the flyers once those exceptionally vulnerable 20 assault marines are gone?

If I knew a BA player was running that, I'd just run 12 Medusas

Lucarikx

Too much list tailoring flying around. A standard TAC BA list will be outgunned significantly by a standard TAC IG list. That's what the OP has to make work for him.

True. Medusas are very good vs MEQ. Or anything, really. Spam lots of plasma everywhere, and make sure to keep your opponent at range. Make sure to focus down units until they're dead, you don't want some random ASM going Rambo through your gunline.

Lucarikx

The IG has all kinds of weapon systems that are good *in general* that work great against BA. The reverse is not nearly as true.

Make sure to keep some meltas around if he pops a Blender Dread outta nowhere.

Stormravens can put a hurting on a Guard list.

Martel wrote:no one would ever field a BA list like that without tailoring like you did, because there are so many hard counters to this list.

Someone asked for a list that could outshoot his guard list. That one can. Requirement fulfilled.

It's certainly not the BEST BA list (but neither is that guard one, for that matter), nor was I selling it as such. I'd note, though, that this list would be strongest against lists that are heavy in fliers and monstrous creatures, and that would have trouble killing AV13 behind an aegis. So... those power lists that are popular right now, basically.

Poly Ranger wrote:What happens to your scoring once 4 basilisk large blasts, 18 plasma, 6 melta, 30 heavy bolter, marbo and 9 tl lascannon shots decimate your 20 marines in 1 turn? How are your 19 lascannon shots going to kill 50 scoring models, their transports, the artillery and the flyers once those exceptionally vulnerable 20 assault marines are gone?

There's going to be nowhere near that kind of killing power on the table when the marines get shot at. As mentioned before, if the BA player goes first, he can reliably blow up all the vehicles before the guardsmen get to counterattack.

The real question is how you plan to go about destroying all that AV13 behind an aegis, because the list you posted doesn't. It just shows up with a couple of vendettas that will easily get swatted away, and a couple of Ap3 weapons on open-topped AV12/10 chassis that are easy peasy to kill with DoA meltaguns (and lascannons, for that matter).

Martel732 wrote:A standard TAC BA list will be outgunned significantly by a standard TAC IG list. That's what the OP has to make work for him.

You can make a TAC list with BA that can still put out serious shooting. Serious shooting that the OP is having trouble handling, and for good reasons.

Smart BA players know that their codex isn't just about jump packing chainswords places, and smart guard players are going to have to handle in-class shooting while keeping much, much better assaulting units out of his face.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Stormravens can put a hurting on a Guard list.

How? They are massively outclassed by Vendettas. And Guard get more reserves shenanigans.

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Stormravens can put a hurting on a Guard list.

How? They are massively outclassed by Vendettas. And Guard get more reserves shenanigans.

They have AV12 all around, get meltas, and they can carry better cargo. If a Stormraven can get the drop on a Vendetta then say bye bye.

BA outshoot IG? Nah.

The point differences you make note of seem too significant to me and soon add up when building a list. Also, comparing a Vendetta to Las Devs is wrong on so many levels, for starts Devs are much easier to hit, wound and for every casualty you lose combat effectivness. Where as a Vendetta can only be hit on 6's when zooming, even before thinking about penning and rolling on tje damage table. Devs are no where near as survivable as Vendettas.

D

Devs can make use of cover saves much better, can't be killed by a single lascannon shot or meltagun, aren't vulnerable to skyfire or interceptor, start the game turn 1 shooting, are much more likely to be able to attack the same target twice, and sometimes score. And that's before we consider that a 4x squad of devestators puts down more lascannon hits than the vendetta.

Devs are in the same league, killing-power-wise, much like how the codex in general is in the same league as the other.

And it only gets worse when that BA CC is able to shut down choice shooters of your own, while you basically have no option but to dig the BA player out of (possibly reinforced) cover.

Even if guard is better than BA in shooting in general (I never claimed that they weren't), BA can still be very shooty and cause some very serious problems in the shooting phase.

Perpetuating the stereotype that BA are an all-CC-all-DoA-jump-pack army isn't terribly helpful.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Stormravens can put a hurting on a Guard list.

How? They are massively outclassed by Vendettas. And Guard get more reserves shenanigans.

They have AV12 all around, get meltas, and they can carry better cargo. If a Stormraven can get the drop on a Vendetta then say bye bye.

And cost a lot more. And that's a huge if. A huge, huge if.

I didn't even mention all-cc-DoA-jumppacks...

In fact I rarely DS my BAs, as I prefer to start them on the board. I just don't believe that BA can outshoot guard or that Las Devs are even remotely comparable to Vendettas.

I'm actually one of the few people to run Devs in my BA lists (I lovethe red armour with the blue helms) but 'making use of cover' means next to nothing with the likes of Tau, Eldar and Divination stripping cover. There's better options in the BA heavy slots, I was closer to agreeing with you with the Tri-las preds, but my meta tends to stick to one force org at 2k, so that list would never work in my meta. Besides I prefer to run more general TAC lists than just spam something, and the BA codex has too many problems to do TAC lists well.

D

List tailoring seems to be working both ways here i see
The average guard and BA lists look nothing like those posted.

Also, just a nitpick.
2 BS 3 shots might be better than a BS4 one.
But 2 BS 3 shots at S3 trying to get through a 3+?
Compared to 1 BS4 shot at S4 and no save?

Im sorry, i'd take that single shot any day.


I usually run armour heavy with my BA, which usually includes: (depending on points limit)

2-4 5man melta squads in a lasback
2-3 Baal preds with flames and sponson flamers
1 vindicator / redeemer (points dependent)
2 tri-las preds

This list wont outshoot an average guard army, but the damage output from it is pretty high as soon as it gets close.
I run this since theres still a ton of mech about in my local area.
Simply las transports and scorch anything that comes out of them as quickly as possible.

Yes, AV13 front on a fast vehicle is great, but guard are complete bastards for high strength plates landing all over the place.

I find guard to be a complete night mare if they get 1st turn against me.

Once i get close it isnt an issue, but trying to take the damage guard can give at range isnt easy for any army except tau.

Indeed, tailoring lists isn't really proving anything, because BA are at their worst in a TAC environment - if they know exactly what they're facing, they can find some reasonable counters and possibly win. If they have to be ready to face anything, they simply cost too much and dilute much of their killing power in return for having too many counters.

Btw... just to point out - I didn't list tailor in my original guard list as there was no list to tailor against... secondly - the list I did make was a pretty standard guard list.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Btw... just to point out - I didn't list tailor in my original guard list as there was no list to tailor against... secondly - the list I did make was a pretty standard guard list.

Yea I agree. I have no idea why people are suggesting that isn't a TAC guard list. Maybe due to a lack of allies lol, but that hardly would make the list worse.

The BA list Ailaros posted however was horridly tailored, and despite his best efforts isn't even a hard counter. The guard list would just through the melta vets in the birds and use the 3 empty chimeras to BLOS for turn 1. Thats not mentioning the fact it was double FOC. The guard can do broken things in 2xFOC.

At normal point levels BA just don't have the slots and pay way too much per specialist weapon. Guard get 3 PG in an AV12 transport for 170. Find me where BA get access to that in their troops section?

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't have the bodies to absorb much damage. Take advantage.

I only ever get two turns of shooting against them at best, one if I'm going second. My Demolishers and Executioners are effective but they miss more often than they hit and even a handful of assault marines can easily wreck all of my vehicles and my infantry.

We play on a 4 by 4 table so by turn 2 he can potentially assault the entire table length - his 12" deployment, two twelve inch movements and a 2d6 assault move. I am struggling to find a way of killing his assault marines before they arrive at my army and destroy everything, and I'm struggling to see what would help. I bought the Inquisition codex when it came out and I'm contemplating getting an Inquisitor and allying him in with 10 Death Cult Assassins, using the Inquisitor to twin-link my Executioner and the death cult assassins to kill his assault marines. Only problem is that his jump infantry are much more mobile than the Death Cult Assassins would be so I don't think it's likely I would get the charge, more likely the assassins would be flamed and shot at, then the handful of survivors killed in a one-sided assault.

What do you guys think? Give me a sample list of mech guard at 1000 point that you would use to counter a Blood Angel army that was made up of, say, one squad of assault marines (melta gun, flamer, power fist, melta bombs), 10 death company with a few power weapons and an attached reclesiarch, and a predator with lascannons.

That's your problem. You can't let a handful of marines wreck your lines. He can't consolidate into a new assault. Set up kill zones and kill him after the first assault.

Martel732 wrote:
That's your problem. You can't let a handful of marines wreck your lines. He can't consolidate into a new assault. Set up kill zones and kill him after the first assault.

Well if you could show me a list that can kill twenty Assault Marines with Feel No Pain in two turns of shooting then I'd be interested in seeing it. Leman Russes that use the blast template will scatter more than they hit, and they still get cover and against the Executioner they get Feel No Pain as well. They also get cover AND Feel No Pain against my plasma guns. Incidentally I often have none of these left by turn 4 or 5 because they've blown themselves up, which makes my veteran squads basically pointless. That's assumingf they're still alive by then - lascannons and meltaguns blowing up my chimeras often kills more of my men than his assault marines do.

Is he using SoS for cover? If not, how is he getting cover?

With the Leman Russ, you only need about two hits to essentially end the match. So even if say 3 of 5 shots scatter, yu still got your two hits and just crippled his list.

It's funny that when I play against IG, chimeras never seem as flimsy as you describe.

Also, the Leman Russ hull seems to be out of favor where I play. There's a lot of air cav and artillery that either ignores cover or doubles out my ASM. I've lost 28 FNP ASM to the IG in one turn at 1850 back in 5th. BA are even more vulnerable now.

Gaurd have more options for shooting at every slot. On average an IGlist will be shootier than most other list (like crons or tau). You can mathhammer your truly awful list all day, but the avg. ba list lacks firepower compared to any other shoot based armies.

You can tailor whatever you want, your choice doesn't effect the average. If you run a good shoot heavy marines list, literally every other SM codex can do better. BA advantages aren't shooty advantages.

Specifically, the rebuttal army has 16 bolters, 5/10 meltas, and 6 laspreds. Besides the fact that your comparison army is actually fieldable, while yours is an auto lose to 1/3 of the armies out there...besides that you might be on par with 4 TL basilisk 6 meltas 6 plasmas 3 flyers and marbo. Depending on opponent you might pull even. Any hordes, airforce, etc? Your caked.

The fact that you have to build a trash list to be even close to a standard gaurd list proves THE OTHER GUYS POINT. Look at the shittery you'd have field to get close to an IG list. Look at it. At your steaming effluence. Thats how hard you have to spam to get there. It's not close and your own evidence proves it. Stop playing devils advocate.

Mass low ap S8 or betterwill deny armour and FnP.

Would platoons of guard with Las and maxed out las heavy weapons teams be viable? Bring in inqusitors for Prescience and stubben to stop everyone running away. Plus you can use the mass of troops to bubblewrap you tanks making them harder to assault. DCA if you want to use them could be used as a counnter-assault unit, hidethem in cover near a prime target he'll go for them use to to join the assault the cut them to pieces.

D

KommissarKarl wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't have the bodies to absorb much damage. Take advantage.

I only ever get two turns of shooting against them at best, one if I'm going second. My Demolishers and Executioners are effective but they miss more often than they hit and even a handful of assault marines can easily wreck all of my vehicles and my infantry.

We play on a 4 by 4 table so by turn 2 he can potentially assault the entire table length - his 12" deployment, two twelve inch movements and a 2d6 assault move. I am struggling to find a way of killing his assault marines before they arrive at my army and destroy everything, and I'm struggling to see what would help. I bought the Inquisition codex when it came out and I'm contemplating getting an Inquisitor and allying him in with 10 Death Cult Assassins, using the Inquisitor to twin-link my Executioner and the death cult assassins to kill his assault marines. Only problem is that his jump infantry are much more mobile than the Death Cult Assassins would be so I don't think it's likely I would get the charge, more likely the assassins would be flamed and shot at, then the handful of survivors killed in a one-sided assault.

What do you guys think? Give me a sample list of mech guard at 1000 point that you would use to counter a Blood Angel army that was made up of, say, one squad of assault marines (melta gun, flamer, power fist, melta bombs), 10 death company with a few power weapons and an attached reclesiarch, and a predator with lascannons.

An assault squad, a dc squad, a las pred and a reclusiarch? And you want to run inquisition?
Easy:

Lord commissar (goes in blob)
Powerfist

Platoon (A)
Platoon command squad

Infantry squad

Infantry squad

Platoon (B)
Platoon command squad

4 Infantry squads (combined)
4 poweraxes

Basilisk

LR Vanquisher
Pask
Lascannon

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (in blob)
Hammerhand, rad granades, force sword, liber heresius

Henchmen squad
1 Priest
4 DCA

1k

Platoon A and the platoon command squad of B, create a bubblewrap line which the BA units have to assault if they want to get to the units behind.
Once BA units have asssaulted these your blob and henchmen can counter assault.

The blob will have 72 st4, 5 st4 ap3, 16 st5 ap2 and 4 st7 ap2 attacks on the charge minus some st 4 attacks for casualties. The marines will be t3 due to rad granades so even the worst attacks will be wounding on 3's. The st7 attacks however will completely ignore fnp due to ID. If the bubble wrap for some reason didn't work you have liber heresius (sp?) to give you counter attack anyway.
The Henchmen squad will have 16 st4 ap3 I6 attacks with ws5 on the charge, rerolling to hit and very likely rerolling to wound. Oh and 4 st3 with the same benefit.

Pask in his vanquisher will love to be shooting at that tri las pred all game. When done he can take out marines here and there too. Bear in mind I am so confident with this list against the BA one you proposed that I am advocating a 220pt unit to take out a 180pt unit.

The Basilisk just shoots and butchers. Just shoots and butchers. (No FnP, armour save, and very likely no cover save due to barrage).

An assault marine, DC and reclusiarch backed up by a tri-las pred shouldn't be too hard to beat anyway tbf.

KommissarKarl wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't have the bodies to absorb much damage. Take advantage.

I only ever get two turns of shooting against them at best, one if I'm going second. My Demolishers and Executioners are effective but they miss more often than they hit and even a handful of assault marines can easily wreck all of my vehicles and my infantry.

We play on a 4 by 4 table so by turn 2 he can potentially assault the entire table length - his 12" deployment, two twelve inch movements and a 2d6 assault move. I am struggling to find a way of killing his assault marines before they arrive at my army and destroy everything, and I'm struggling to see what would help. I bought the Inquisition codex when it came out and I'm contemplating getting an Inquisitor and allying him in with 10 Death Cult Assassins, using the Inquisitor to twin-link my Executioner and the death cult assassins to kill his assault marines. Only problem is that his jump infantry are much more mobile than the Death Cult Assassins would be so I don't think it's likely I would get the charge, more likely the assassins would be flamed and shot at, then the handful of survivors killed in a one-sided assault.

What do you guys think? Give me a sample list of mech guard at 1000 point that you would use to counter a Blood Angel army that was made up of, say, one squad of assault marines (melta gun, flamer, power fist, melta bombs), 10 death company with a few power weapons and an attached reclesiarch, and a predator with lascannons.

A 4x4 table gives BA a pretty big advantage, since you can't hide and pick him off piecemeal, instead he'll be in your face very quicklly. Bring Russes for sure, if you can hit then he's toast. I would also recommend Marbo for extra, more accurate templates for cheap, plus he has to waste an unit to try to kill him. Also consider reserving extra-squishy units to deny the BA player unots to kill. Finally, try to get 2nd turn - you can then deploy to counter your enemy's placement.

Poly Ranger wrote:

KommissarKarl wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't have the bodies to absorb much damage. Take advantage.

I only ever get two turns of shooting against them at best, one if I'm going second. My Demolishers and Executioners are effective but they miss more often than they hit and even a handful of assault marines can easily wreck all of my vehicles and my infantry.

We play on a 4 by 4 table so by turn 2 he can potentially assault the entire table length - his 12" deployment, two twelve inch movements and a 2d6 assault move. I am struggling to find a way of killing his assault marines before they arrive at my army and destroy everything, and I'm struggling to see what would help. I bought the Inquisition codex when it came out and I'm contemplating getting an Inquisitor and allying him in with 10 Death Cult Assassins, using the Inquisitor to twin-link my Executioner and the death cult assassins to kill his assault marines. Only problem is that his jump infantry are much more mobile than the Death Cult Assassins would be so I don't think it's likely I would get the charge, more likely the assassins would be flamed and shot at, then the handful of survivors killed in a one-sided assault.

What do you guys think? Give me a sample list of mech guard at 1000 point that you would use to counter a Blood Angel army that was made up of, say, one squad of assault marines (melta gun, flamer, power fist, melta bombs), 10 death company with a few power weapons and an attached reclesiarch, and a predator with lascannons.

An assault squad, a dc squad, a las pred and a reclusiarch? And you want to run inquisition?
Easy:

Lord commissar (goes in blob)
Powerfist

Platoon (A)
Platoon command squad

Infantry squad

Infantry squad

Platoon (B)
Platoon command squad

4 Infantry squads (combined)
4 poweraxes

Basilisk

LR Vanquisher
Pask
Lascannon

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (in blob)
Hammerhand, rad granades, force sword, liber heresius

Henchmen squad
1 Priest
4 DCA

1k

Platoon A and the platoon command squad of B, create a bubblewrap line which the BA units have to assault if they want to get to the units behind.
Once BA units have asssaulted these your blob and henchmen can counter assault.

The blob will have 72 st4, 5 st4 ap3, 16 st5 ap2 and 4 st7 ap2 attacks on the charge minus some st 4 attacks for casualties. The marines will be t3 due to rad granades so even the worst attacks will be wounding on 3's. The st7 attacks however will completely ignore fnp due to ID. If the bubble wrap for some reason didn't work you have liber heresius (sp?) to give you counter attack anyway.
The Henchmen squad will have 16 st4 ap3 I6 attacks with ws5 on the charge, rerolling to hit and very likely rerolling to wound. Oh and 4 st3 with the same benefit.

Pask in his vanquisher will love to be shooting at that tri las pred all game. When done he can take out marines here and there too. Bear in mind I am so confident with this list against the BA one you proposed that I am advocating a 220pt unit to take out a 180pt unit.

The Basilisk just shoots and butchers. Just shoots and butchers. (No FnP, armour save, and very likely no cover save due to barrage).

An assault marine, DC and reclusiarch backed up by a tri-las pred shouldn't be too hard to beat anyway tbf.

I used to run lists like that, with a couple of infantry platoons combined into squads. Against Blood Angels you may as well field baby kittens, infantry squads die just as quick as veterans and they don't even have the special weapons to compensate. Honestly your list would be annihilated against my opponent as the only thing you'd have to kill those twenty assault marines is that one basilisk which my opponent would immediately prioritise and destroy.

They will also never, ever get the charge. It is very difficult for a 30 man unit to maneuver at all, let alone getting the charge on jump infantry. They die like flies to whirlwinds and bhaal preditors, I used to spend more time putting them on and off the table than I did shooting or assaulting them.

I also find that the Basilisk will quickly die to lascannons and meltaguns, which is why the only AV 12 I take is chimeras since that is necessary. A Basilisk is just a Leman Russ that is 20 points cheaper and only gets one turn to shoot, if that.

A lot of people have said "Oh it shouldn't be too hard" but I've beaten my friends' tau, necron and eldar fine, or at least have had an actual battle. It's only Blood Angels who can get to my tanks and men so quickly that I don't have a chance to shoot them.

Just popping in to "lol" at "BA can out shoot IG"