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SO you think you get double saves against force weapons with a GC?

Pretty sure that is not how it works (and is not HIWPI), but given GWs poor writing that might be RAW.

Oh, I think it's a bit silly too, but I try to avoid being affected by personal bias.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Oh, I see where you're getting at.
Well, you have to allocate those wounds, so you'd replay the wound allocation with those d3 wounds and take your saves as normal.

Cite the rule that puts them back in the wound pool.

They'd be immediately allocated to the GC not go back into the wound pool, surely?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
They'd be immediately allocated to the GC not go back into the wound pool, surely?

Allocation comes from a wound pool.
Cite permission to allocate.

Not all wounds are allocated - Perils, Gets Hot.

Well, I'd say that Perils does allocate a wound to the psyker, but it's really just arguing semantics.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Well, I'd say that Perils does allocate a wound to the psyker, but it's really just arguing semantics.

If it was allocated a character psyker could LOS! the wound...good job it isnt allocate

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Well, I'd say that Perils does allocate a wound to the psyker, but it's really just arguing semantics.

So you can LOS! a Perils wound?
What about Gets Hot?

It is semantics - but it's a very important distinction.

Gets Hot -> No, the FAQ explicitly forbids it
Perils -> Good point, but how, mechanically, does it take a wound that isn't allocated to it? The whole wounding rules are built around allocation.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Gets Hot -> No, the FAQ explicitly forbids it
Perils -> Good point, but how, mechanically, does it take a wound that isn't allocated to it? The whole wounding rules are built around allocation.

No, they're not. The save process rules are built around allocation, but not all wounds can be saved.

2 Marines fire Plasma Guns. Marine 1 rolls 2 1's, Marine 2 rolls 2 2's.
Please explain the process from there. As I understand your argument, Marine 1 would be allocated a wound, make an armor save, fail, and die... what, then, happens to the second wound?

A more related example:
STR6 Blast/Template weapon causes 2 wounds to a unit of Rippers (T3). First Ripper fails its armor save. How many wounds are in the wound pool?
What about if it's a STR5 weapon?

rigeld2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Gets Hot -> No, the FAQ explicitly forbids it
Perils -> Good point, but how, mechanically, does it take a wound that isn't allocated to it? The whole wounding rules are built around allocation.

No, they're not. The save process rules are built around allocation, but not all wounds can be saved.

2 Marines fire Plasma Guns. Marine 1 rolls 2 1's, Marine 2 rolls 2 2's.
Please explain the process from there. As I understand your argument, Marine 1 would be allocated a wound, make an armor save, fail, and die... what, then, happens to the second wound?

It is lost as only Marine 1 can have the wound legally allocated to it?

A more related example:
STR6 Blast/Template weapon causes 2 wounds to a unit of Rippers (T3). First Ripper fails its armor save. How many wounds are in the wound pool?
What about if it's a STR5 weapon?

First wound is allocated to Ripper, wound doubles, both wounds are allocated to Ripper, save failed, Ripper dies, second wound is lost as it has already been allocated to a now dead model.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Gets Hot -> No, the FAQ explicitly forbids it
Perils -> Good point, but how, mechanically, does it take a wound that isn't allocated to it? The whole wounding rules are built around allocation.

No, they're not. The save process rules are built around allocation, but not all wounds can be saved.

2 Marines fire Plasma Guns. Marine 1 rolls 2 1's, Marine 2 rolls 2 2's.
Please explain the process from there. As I understand your argument, Marine 1 would be allocated a wound, make an armor save, fail, and die... what, then, happens to the second wound?

It is lost as only Marine 1 can have the wound legally allocated to it?

Care to cite that? Gets Hot doesn't mention allocation so why are you inserting it?

A more related example:
STR6 Blast/Template weapon causes 2 wounds to a unit of Rippers (T3). First Ripper fails its armor save. How many wounds are in the wound pool?
What about if it's a STR5 weapon?

First wound is allocated to Ripper, wound doubles, both wounds are allocated to Ripper, save failed, Ripper dies, second wound is lost as it has already been allocated to a now dead model.

Why are you allocating twice before resolving?

The same comparison can be made with blasts and swarms. When you double the wound do you get to make another save against both?

You can take a Feel no pain vs perils and gets hot so wouldn't you still get it vs the d3?

rigeld2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Gets Hot -> No, the FAQ explicitly forbids it
Perils -> Good point, but how, mechanically, does it take a wound that isn't allocated to it? The whole wounding rules are built around allocation.

No, they're not. The save process rules are built around allocation, but not all wounds can be saved.

2 Marines fire Plasma Guns. Marine 1 rolls 2 1's, Marine 2 rolls 2 2's.
Please explain the process from there. As I understand your argument, Marine 1 would be allocated a wound, make an armor save, fail, and die... what, then, happens to the second wound?

It is lost as only Marine 1 can have the wound legally allocated to it?

Care to cite that? Gets Hot doesn't mention allocation so why are you inserting it?

Because I equate taking a wound with having a wound allocated to it, to me they seem synonymous, but I fully accept that I may be wrong.

A more related example:
STR6 Blast/Template weapon causes 2 wounds to a unit of Rippers (T3). First Ripper fails its armor save. How many wounds are in the wound pool?
What about if it's a STR5 weapon?

First wound is allocated to Ripper, wound doubles, both wounds are allocated to Ripper, save failed, Ripper dies, second wound is lost as it has already been allocated to a now dead model.

Why are you allocating twice before resolving?

Because of this:
"Q: If a base of models with the Swarms special rule suffers aWound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon thatwould cause it to suffer Instant Death, does the fact that Wound is doubled to two Wounds mean that two bases should be removed instead of one? (p43)
A: No"

Logically, if the wound is lost it can't be in the wound pool, it has to be already allocated to the model.

Fragile wrote:The same comparison can be made with blasts and swarms. When you double the wound do you get to make another save against both?

Yes, you double Wounds not Unsaved Wounds.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Why are you allocating twice before resolving?

Because of this:
"Q: If a base of models with the Swarms special rule suffers aWound from a Blast, Large Blast or Template weapon thatwould cause it to suffer Instant Death, does the fact that Wound is doubled to two Wounds mean that two bases should be removed instead of one? (p43)
A: No"

Logically, if the wound is lost it can't be in the wound pool, it has to be already allocated to the model.

But that's not what you said. You said allocate, double, allocate.
In reality it's allocate, fail save, allocated wound is doubled.

Fragile wrote:The same comparison can be made with blasts and swarms. When you double the wound do you get to make another save against both?

Yes, you double Wounds not Unsaved Wounds.

Incorrect. You double wounds suffered. A saved wound has not been suffered.

Correct, I made a mistake there, the Swarms rule explicitly states that unsaved wounds are doubled.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Wounds are inflicted -> saves are taken -> Feel No Pain is rolled

How is it bypassed?

The Force weapon activaction rule bypasses as it only triggers from unsaved wounds

Attack hits, wound unsaved, force weapon activates after saves taken, wounds generated.

The D3 wounds generated from a force weapon activation are outside of the normal wound allocation and save phase.

Since the creature would have to fail armor/fnp originally for the weapon to activate.

You are correct in that it activates after the first unsaved wound, but it still generates d3 wounds, not unsaved wounds, and only unsaved wounds can remove wounds from a model.

It would have to be an unsaved wound in order for a FW to attach ID to it. The FAQ clearly states that you can not take FNP against any wound that has ID attached to it. So the psyker would have to have a warp charge available to make it ID.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You are correct in that it activates after the first unsaved wound, but it still generates d3 wounds, not unsaved wounds, and only unsaved wounds can remove wounds from a model.

It doesn't "generate D3 wounds" it "inflicts d3 wounds instead of inflicting instant death"

We are being directed as the results of the unsaved wound, not going back to the start of the "To Wound" process.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You are correct in that it activates after the first unsaved wound, but it still generates d3 wounds, not unsaved wounds, and only unsaved wounds can remove wounds from a model.

It doesn't "generate D3 wounds" it "inflicts d3 wounds instead of inflicting instant death"

We are being directed as the results of the unsaved wound, not going back to the start of the "To Wound" process.

I would agree with this, as the wound could only be inflicted as the result of an unsaved would allowing you to activate instant death.

You are still able to use feel no pain against the wounds caused from both the force weapon and Warp Rift, right? Since FNP is used after all the saves and wounding process?

Unseeablething wrote:
You are still able to use feel no pain against the wounds caused from both the force weapon and Warp Rift, right? Since FNP is used after all the saves and wounding process?

If you are asking about prior to generating the D3 Wounds, no. Warp Rift does not cause wounds, and an activated Force Weapon causes ID.


We are discussing, post D3 Wound generation.

If a gargantuan creature can take a save against the D3 Wounds (possibly giving them two chances to save against the wounds) then yes, you could use FNP. I'm of the opinion, however, you do not get a save (or FNP) against those Wounds.

I look at those d3 wounds as being unsaved wounds. One unsaved wound(instant death) becoming more wounds. Feel no pain says you can try to substract unsaved wounds. I can understand not allowed to save again(you've already failed or didn't get one), but why would that prevent you from FNP. Is FNP not at the very end of gaining wounds?

What I'm saying
1 wound ID. Fail the save. Becomes d3. FNP

Force weapon what I think.
1 wound. Fail the save. Activated weapon. Becomes d3. FNP

What I'm seeing and don't understand
1wound ID. Fail the save. No FNP. Becomes d3

What I'm seeing Force weapon
1wound. Fail the save. FNP. If FNP is failed. Activated Weapon. becomes D3 wounds.

I see the word instead in the unstoppable rule and think the damage is handled differently. Maybe the context of the FNP rule is not translating in my head the way everyone else sees it.

Unseeablething wrote:
I look at those d3 wounds as being unsaved wounds. One unsaved wound(instant death) becoming more wounds. Feel no pain says you can try to substract unsaved wounds. I can understand not allowed to save again(you've already failed or didn't get one), but why would that prevent you from FNP. Is FNP not at the very end of gaining wounds?

What I'm saying
1 wound ID. Fail the save. Becomes d3. FNP

Force weapon what I think.
1 wound. Fail the save. Activated weapon. Becomes d3. FNP

What I'm seeing and don't understand
1wound ID. Fail the save. No FNP. Becomes d3

What I'm seeing Force weapon
1wound. Fail the save. FNP. If FNP is failed. Activated Weapon. becomes D3 wounds.

I see the word instead in the unstoppable rule and think the damage is handled differently. Maybe the context of the FNP rule is not translating in my head the way everyone else sees it.

Per the BRB FAQ, Force activation comes before FNP.

Uptopdownunder wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
You are correct in that it activates after the first unsaved wound, but it still generates d3 wounds, not unsaved wounds, and only unsaved wounds can remove wounds from a model.

It doesn't "generate D3 wounds" it "inflicts d3 wounds instead of inflicting instant death"

Fine, it inflicts d3 wounds, against which you must now roll your saves. The only time you remove wounds is from an unsaved wound or when a rule grants you permission to remove wounds.

Force Weapon vs Gargantuan Creature
1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound
3. Allocate first wound
4. Roll saves.
5. Activate Force Weapon
6. Wound now inflicts Instant Death, it is replaced by d3 wounds
7. Roll save
8. Roll FNP
9. Repeat 7 and 8 until all wounds are resolved
10.Allocate next wound
11. Wound causes Instant Death, replace with d3 wounds
12. Repeat 7 and 8 until all wounds are resolved
13. Go back to step 10 until wound pool is empty

Steps 7 and 8 don't exist in the rules.
Please show rules support for your creation of those steps.

rigeld2 wrote:
Steps 7 and 8 don't exist in the rules.
Please show rules support for your creation of those steps.

"The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one (see page 16) if it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty." - page 15

"If a model has an Armour Save characteristic of 6+ or better on its profile, it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour prevents the Wound." - page 16

"Some warriors are protected by more than mere physical armour. They may be shielded by force fields, enveloped in mystical energies or have a metabolism that can shrug off hits that would put holes in a battle tank. Models with wargear or abilities like these are allowed an invulnerable saving throw.
Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound - the Armour Piercing value of attacking weapons has no effect. Even if a Wound ignores all armour saves, an invulnerable saving throw can still be taken." - page 17

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded" - page 35

You are missing the whole "ID wounds override FnP". You seem to want roll FnP saves on wounds caused by an ID effect, which the rules as written doesn't support. I see your reasoning, but its flawed. Once FnP is bypassed, there is no support for you to go back to it on the same damaging attack.

SJ