Grey Knights - Warp Rift vs Gargantuan Creatures

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**Eihnlazer**

yep, case closed.

**PrinceRaven**

Fragile wrote:
It seems that the ID rule for GCs is just d3 wounds instead of outright killing the model. The wound has already gone past the saves point and FNP is not allowed since the original wound still has the ID property, its effect has just changed for GCs.

That is how you want the rule to work, but as written it does not remove wounds, it inflicts wounds.

For it to work that way it would have to be worded that a remove from play effect or unsaved wound that inflicts instant death instead removes d3 wounds.

**Uptopdownunder**

It has been shown that those silly word games are not true.

**PrinceRaven**

You means the silly word games in which someone pretends that the rule actually means you're supposed to remove wounds bypassing any saves even though it says something else entirely?

**Uptopdownunder**

I have shown clearly that wounds inflicted = wounds removed.

**PrinceRaven**

So when we shoot at targets we just bypass the whole saves part and remove the wounds? Good to know, that'll make dealing with Riptides a lot easier.

**Uptopdownunder**

No we don't bypass it we just don't do it twice in the one attack.

**PrinceRaven**

Correct, we do not roll a save twice for each wound. We roll 1 save per wound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's take a more conventional Instant Death weapon, the Heavy Wraithcannon. My Wraithknight fires at my enemies Hierophant Bio-Titan:
- I roll to hit
- I roll to wound, let's say I get a 6, thus giving the wound the Instant Death special rule
- The wound is allocated to the model. Oh, now we have an Instant Death attack against a Gargantuan Creature, we replace the wound with d3 non-ID wounds.
- Roll Invulnerable or cover save
- Since these wounds aren't Instant Death, roll Feel No Pain
- If the wound is unsaved, remove 1 wound from the model
- Repeat until there are no more wounds

**Uptopdownunder**

See that is where you fail.

A wound doesn't cause instant death until after the save has been taken.

We are required to inflict d3 wounds instead of Instant Death not replace a potential Instant Death wound with d3 wounds, if they wanted us to do that they'd have said "any wounds that have the potential to cause instant death are instead replaced by d3 normal wounds" instead of saying "attacks that cause instant death instead inflict d3 wounds."

**PrinceRaven**

So you're saying it's not an attack that inflicts instant death until instant death is inflicted?

The how do you know if you can take Feel No Pain?

**Uptopdownunder**

An attack does not inflict Instant Death until such time as it gets an Unsaved Wound, that's how you know whether to take FNP or not because FNP comes AFTER saves, just like the d3 wounds.

**PrinceRaven**

But it is an "attack that normally inflicts Instant Death", correct?

**Eihnlazer**

Prince, you keep trying to go back in time on this.

The save was already failed, which is why the force weapon check to see if the wound is ID was made.

You dont even know if the wound is ID until after the save is failed and the psycher then rolls to activate his force weapon.

At this point, the wound becomes ID, and GMC rules state that instead of ID (and being removed from the table as a casualty) he recieves D3 wounds.

The GMC rule simply changes the ID wound into D3 wounds. It does not let you go back and retake saves (which he already failed).

**PrinceRaven**

Yes, d3 wounds are inflicted, now quote a rule that allows you to remove wounds from the model due to the model being wounded without allowing saves against those wounds.

**Uptopdownunder**

Yep that's right but instead of inflicting the ID it inflicts d3 wounds.

**Eihnlazer**

Prince the wound was already inflicted and the save failed before you even roll the D3.

Its just changing the single ID wound into D3 wounds. THATS IT. end of story.

**PrinceRaven**

Yes, a save already has been rolled against that wound from the Force weapon prior to the test to activate Force, so that particular wound has permission to remove wounds from the model. The d3 wounds inflicted by the Unstoppable rule are not that wound, and saves have yet to be rolled against them.

**Uptopdownunder**

So what you're saying is that against a instant death weapon a normal model is allowed to a number of saves equal to the number of wound left on it's profile?

We are instructed to reduce the models wounds to 0 and remove it as a casualty so as the only wound that has "permission" to remove wounds from the model is the first one then all the others must get saves too.

**PrinceRaven**

Um... What? "All the others"? A normal Instant Death wound is only 1 wound.

**Uptopdownunder**

Oh so now you say instant death only removes 1 wound?
Great news for my Centurions !

**PrinceRaven**

it is 1 wound that reduces the model's Wounds characteristic to 0 if unsaved.

**Uptopdownunder**

PrinceRaven wrote:
it is 1 wound that reduces the model's Wounds characteristic to 0 if unsaved.

and behold your permission !

Instant Death = reduce to 0
but we are told to replace reduce to 0 with reduce by d3 instead.

See no matter what route you take we end up at the same place, reduce by d3.

**PrinceRaven**

No, we are told that instead of having 1 instant death wound we have d3 non-ID wounds, nowhere does it say to reduce or remove wounds from the Wounds characteristic in the Unstoppable rule.

**Uptopdownunder**

No we are told that rather than inflict sufficient wounds to reduce the characteristic to 0 we inflict d3 instead.

**PrinceRaven**

You're twisting the words to suit your own view of how it works. Nowhere are we told that Instant Death inflicts multiple wounds as standard.

**Uptopdownunder**

Inlficting instant death = reduce wounds to 0 that much is in hard print

So if you inflict d3 wounds instead of inflicting instant death that = d3 wounds instead of reduce wounds to 0 and ergo reduce wounds by d3.

**Fragile**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Fragile wrote:
It seems that the ID rule for GCs is just d3 wounds instead of outright killing the model. The wound has already gone past the saves point and FNP is not allowed since the original wound still has the ID property, its effect has just changed for GCs.

That is how you want the rule to work, but as written it does not remove wounds, it inflicts wounds.

For it to work that way it would have to be worded that a remove from play effect or unsaved wound that inflicts instant death instead removes d3 wounds.

That is how the rule works as read. Instead of inflicting ID, it inflicts d3 wounds. The effect on ID is simply changed. Therefore no FNP. The wound was unsaved so you cannot take more saves vs that wound. Just like swarms and blasts.

**PrinceRaven**

This thread is beginning to seem like beating my head against a brick wall, I think I'll leave before I hurt my brain..

**Uptopdownunder**

Not barking up the wrong tree would be your best bet.

**PrinceRaven**

Actually backing up assertions with rules would be nice as well.