Grey Knights - Warp Rift vs Gargantuan Creatures

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**rigeld2**

PrinceRaven wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Steps 7 and 8 don't exist in the rules.
Please show rules support for your creation of those steps.

"The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one (see page 16) if it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty." - page 15

"If a model has an Armour Save characteristic of 6+ or better on its profile, it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour prevents the Wound." - page 16

"Some warriors are protected by more than mere physical armour. They may be shielded by force fields, enveloped in mystical energies or have a metabolism that can shrug off hits that would put holes in a battle tank. Models with wargear or abilities like these are allowed an invulnerable saving throw.
Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound - the Armour Piercing value of attacking weapons has no effect. Even if a Wound ignores all armour saves, an invulnerable saving throw can still be taken." - page 17

When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded" - page 35

Those are post allocation. That step has been resolved. Why are you backtracking? You've failed to prove you're permitted to allocate twice.

**PrinceRaven**

Ok, by which mechanic would you resolve these wounds then?

**Uptopdownunder**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, by which mechanic would you resolve these wounds then?

By the mechanic you are directed to.

Instant Death reduces you wounds to 0

INSTEAD for GMC

Remaining Wounds - D3

**PrinceRaven**

Ok, now how do you apply these wounds to the Gargantuan Creature without using the rules on page 15?

**Uptopdownunder**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, now how do you apply these wounds to the Gargantuan Creature without using the rules on page 15?

As per the rules on Page 15, specifically this bit : "... reduce that model's Wounds by l. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty."

Except that in this case you reduce the models wounds by d3

**PrinceRaven**

Uptopdownunder wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Ok, now how do you apply these wounds to the Gargantuan Creature without using the rules on page 15?

As per the rules on Page 15, specifically this bit : "The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one (see page 16) if it fails... reduce that model's Wounds by l. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty."

Except that in this case you reduce the models wounds by d3

So we're just blatantly ignoring part of the rule, are we? Only unsaved wounds reduce the model's wounds by 1.

**Uptopdownunder**

PrinceRaven wrote:

So we're just blatantly ignoring part of the rule, are we? Only unsaved wounds reduce the model's wounds by 1.

No because we've already done the saves part.

Not sure why it is that you're having such trouble picking this up but it isn't that d3 new wounds are created it is that d3 wounds are inflicted instead of the ID so you reduce the number of wounds by d3 not automatically to 0.

**PrinceRaven**

Not sure why you're having such trouble picking up that saves have never been taken against these d3 wounds, thus you can't actually remove wounds as they are not unsaved.

**Uptopdownunder**

Yes it has.

Hit - Wound - Fail save=> Instant death - remove d3 wounds INSTEAD of the ID.

Or Warp Rift - Autohit - Fail Ini Test - Remove as casualty is replaced by remove d3 wounds.

Your contention that once you get to the wound removal stage and the d3 is rolled that you go back to the start is wrong.

**PrinceRaven**

Ah, you're confusing Wounds you inflict with Wounds the characteristic. Now I understand why I'm not making any sense to you and vice versa.

**Uptopdownunder**

I understand that you are confused but that doesn't alter the fact that d3 new wounds are not generated, simply you remove d3 wounds from the model, rather than reducing the model's wounds to 0 as is the normal case.

The time for saves and FNP has long passed, you are up to the stage of applying the consequences of being "Instant Death'ed" not working out whether ID applies or not.

**PrinceRaven**

I completely disagree on the basis that the rule does not tell you to remove Wounds (the characteristic) it tells you to inflict Wounds (damage).

Also, why are there 2 things called Wounds in this game? Seems like a terrible idea if you care about clarity in the rules at all.

**Uptopdownunder**

If you inflict wounds you remove them from the characteristic don't you.

The word "wound" can be used in many contexts, "To Wound" can be referred to as "wound", "unsaved wound" can be referred to as "wound" and "wound inflicted/removed" can be referred to as "wound".

The way to determine which is which is all dependent on context. In this instance the word "wound" is used in the context of being an alternative to the effects if Instant Death which normally reduces your wounds to 0 but instead it now reduces your wounds by d3.

The only mistake that GW make is that they often believe these subtle differences to be more obvious to all than it really is.

**rigeld2**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Not sure why you're having such trouble picking up that saves have never been taken against these d3 wounds, thus you can't actually remove wounds as they are not unsaved.

So, going back to the Swarm vs Blast questions I asked earlier...
To take a save you must have allocated the wound. Correct?
To have allocated the wound, it must have been in the Wound Pool. Correct?
Please cite allowance to put these d3 wounds in the Wound Pool.

**Ashiraya**

This is absolutely stupid but I am with Princeraven here.

The wounds generated by converting 'removed from play' into D3 wounds are just like any other wound. The save rules permit you to take saves against suffered wound, and only unsaved wounds make you lose a wound.

In fact, I'd argue that not even the AP2 of the Force Axe carries over to the D3 wounds, since the D3 wounds are caused by Unstoppable!, not by the Force Axe.

As said, stupid but it's how it reads.

**Uptopdownunder**

The "removed from play" condition comes about after the allocate wounds and take saves part of the process, there is no grant anywhere to rewind the process to an earlier time and start taking saves again.

**PrinceRaven**

Who said anything about rewinding? You just resolve the wound(s) just as you would any other wound.

**rigeld2**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Who said anything about rewinding? You just resolve the wound(s) just as you would any other wound.

Wrong. You need permission to add to the wound pool. Your assumptions require the wounds to be allocated.
Please cite rules support.

**PrinceRaven**

rigeld2 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Not sure why you're having such trouble picking up that saves have never been taken against these d3 wounds, thus you can't actually remove wounds as they are not unsaved.

So, going back to the Swarm vs Blast questions I asked earlier...
To take a save you must have allocated the wound. Correct? Yes
To have allocated the wound, it must have been in the Wound Pool. Correct?
Please cite allowance to put these d3 wounds in the Wound Pool.

Incorrect, you have demonstrated yourself it is possible to inflict wounds on a target without using the the usual wound pool -> allocation methods, with Perils of the Warp, Gets Hot, dangerous terrain, etc.

Ashiraya wrote:This is absolutely stupid but I am with Princeraven here.

The wounds generated by converting 'removed from play' into D3 wounds are just like any other wound. The save rules permit you to take saves against suffered wound, and only unsaved wounds make you lose a wound.

In fact, I'd argue that not even the AP2 of the Force Axe carries over to the D3 wounds, since the D3 wounds are caused by Unstoppable!, not by the Force Axe.

As said, stupid but it's how it reads.

I'd argue the opposite, the rule reads like these wounds are done using the profile of the attack, only removing the Instant Death special rule.

Lots of rules are stupid yet we still play by all of them but the most incredibly and game-breakingly stupid rules.

**Uptopdownunder**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Who said anything about rewinding? You just resolve the wound(s) just as you would any other wound.

No you don't don't because it isn't a wound like any other wound. It is an instruction to remove a number of wounds rather than an entire model AFTER the effect has been caused, which in the case of Instant Death is after the failure of the saves (which disallows FNP).

The only way to go unsaved wound - apply effect - allocate wound - take save - apply effect is to rewind after the first "apply effect"

Perils of the warp : Wound allocated - take save? NO save allowed - FNP - apply effect (remove wound)
Gets Hot : Wound allocated - take save - FNP - apply effect (remove wound)
Dangerous Terrain : Wound allocated - take save - FNP - apply effect (remove wound)

GMC : Wound allocated - take save - FNP - apply effect (remove wound/s)

**rigeld2**

PrinceRaven wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Not sure why you're having such trouble picking up that saves have never been taken against these d3 wounds, thus you can't actually remove wounds as they are not unsaved.

So, going back to the Swarm vs Blast questions I asked earlier...
To take a save you must have allocated the wound. Correct? Yes
To have allocated the wound, it must have been in the Wound Pool. Correct?
Please cite allowance to put these d3 wounds in the Wound Pool.

Incorrect, you have demonstrated yourself it is possible to inflict wounds on a target without using the the usual wound pool -> allocation methods, with Perils of the Warp, Gets Hot, dangerous terrain, etc.

So please cite the rules allowing a save on a wound that isn't allocated. Perils, Gets Hot, Dangerous Terrain all have rules regarding saves.

**WrentheFaceless**

The wounds dont garner saves as they're not part of the wound pool save phase, they're generated after you've aready past the phase to save against wounds s the wounds can only be generated after you failed saves.

You dont get to double-dip on saves for these wounds as they're in place of ID

State anywhere in the rules the D3 wounds generated instead of ID get saves.

**OIIIIIIO**

I do not use warp rift so I can not comment on that power, I do, however use Force Weapons. I believe that it would go like this with a Force Weapon:

Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Take saves (fail one)

at this point it is a single wound without ID attached to it, if I have a WC then I could roll for ID which would negate the ability of FNP while at the same time attaching ID

Most models would be RfP, however the GC has a special rule

roll a d3 and find out how many actual wounds are removed

**PrinceRaven**

rigeld2 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
Not sure why you're having such trouble picking up that saves have never been taken against these d3 wounds, thus you can't actually remove wounds as they are not unsaved.

So, going back to the Swarm vs Blast questions I asked earlier...
To take a save you must have allocated the wound. Correct? Yes
To have allocated the wound, it must have been in the Wound Pool. Correct?
Please cite allowance to put these d3 wounds in the Wound Pool.

Incorrect, you have demonstrated yourself it is possible to inflict wounds on a target without using the the usual wound pool -> allocation methods, with Perils of the Warp, Gets Hot, dangerous terrain, etc.

So please cite the rules allowing a save on a wound that isn't allocated. Perils, Gets Hot, Dangerous Terrain all have rules regarding saves.

"If a model has an Armour Save characteristic of 6+ or better on its profile, it is allowed a further dice roll to see if the armour prevents the Wound."

Now it's your turn, find a rule other than this one: "The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one (see page 16) ff it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1." which explicitly states you get to make a save, that allows you to remove Wounds from a model that has taken a Wound.

**Uptopdownunder**

OK so I see we're getting to the weird semantics side of the discussion so just to recap:

You remove d3 wounds INSTEAD of removing the model as a casualty.

All done.

**PrinceRaven**

Uptopdownunder wrote:
OK so I see we're getting to the weird semantics side of the discussion so just to recap:

You ~~remove~~ inflict d3 wounds INSTEAD of removing the model as a casualty.

All done.

Fixed that for you.

**Uptopdownunder**

Same thing matey.

**PrinceRaven**

Incorrect, removing d3 Wounds is reducing the model's Wounds characteristic, inflicting d3 Wounds is causing damage.

**Uptopdownunder**

PrinceRaven wrote:
Incorrect, removing d3 Wounds is reducing the model's Wounds characteristic, inflicting d3 Wounds is causing damage.

There is no such distinction :

"To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved Wounds inflicted by each side onto their opponents."
"'When determining assault results in a multiple combat, total up the number of Wounds inflicted by all units on each side to see which side is the winner."

In both cases those statements mean "wounds removed from the characteristic" one is "unsaved wounds inflicted", the other is "wounds inflicted"

If you look at the broader context the answer is clear, Instant Death isn't inflicted, d3 wounds are. As it takes place as the final stage of the wound process it can only be "remove d3 wounds instead of reducing wounds to 0"

**Fragile**

It seems that the ID rule for GCs is just d3 wounds instead of outright killing the model. The wound has already gone past the saves point and FNP is not allowed since the original wound still has the ID property, its effect has just changed for GCs.