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Well, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he wears a purple suit, has green hair, and clown makeup... and I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that 17 of the 85 episodes of The Animated Series (which is where many of the people my age first became familiar with The Bat) featured the Joker

chaos0xomega wrote:
Well, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he wears a purple suit, has green hair, and clown makeup... and I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that 17 of the 85 episodes of The Animated Series (which is where many of the people my age first became familiar with The Bat) featured the Joker

The episodes concept is fascinating, I think I will start looking at villain screen time vs popularity. I think there may actually be a connection there.

As to your suit theory, I would like an explanation. How do you feel his clothing and hair color effects his popularity? I am a psychological researcher with a focus on how uniforms and their colors effect our perceptions, but purple and green are two of the worst colors for popularity from what we have found at my university.

 Ahtman wrote:
The other villains in the DC universe fear the Joker, and try to avoid him.

I would actually enjoy reading some of those encounters. Any place to start?

Right, but how how often do you actually see a homicidal purple-suit wearing green-haired clown? He's unique, thats not a 'look' that you commonly encounter, nowhere outside of Batman anyway, ergo it will stand out in memory more... vs... say Bane, the angry roid-raging Luchador, Penguin the aristocratic somewhat bird-like monocled british mafioso, or whatever the more boring villains the show featured are. The ones that stand out in peoples minds most are like Dr. Freeze, Clayface, and The Joker, and of those The Joker gets the most air time. It certainly doesn't hurt that that iteration is considered the definitive Joker either. The plotlines were solid and Mark Hammill did an amazing job voicing him.

 kronk wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
The other villains in the DC universe fear the Joker, and try to avoid him.

I would actually enjoy reading some of those encounters. Any place to start?

For animated features, the Injustice League 3 part series from the Justice League animated series and Batman: Under the Red Hood show rather well that the Joker isn't popular among his fellow villains.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Batman represents Law and Order

He breaks the law constantly. Assault, breaking and entering, property damage, vigilantism, speeding, not filing a flight plan for the Batwing, child endangerment, ect ect.

Beside, he cannot represent Law and Order, because Law and Order are already represented by Judge Dredd !

chaos0xomega wrote:
He is possibly the most 'real' of all Batman's villains, in that he doesn't require a serious supsension of disbelief to accept

He does. He really does. I mean, as far as I know, he does not even have a fake identity or anything, and is supposed to just go around Gotham city with his full make-up (or disfigured face, depending on whichever version we are talking about anyway). Why does a random cop or thug not just kill him while he is wandering the streets ?

Then you too are unaware of that which you speak, especially considering that he spends an inordinate amount of time locked up in Arkham Asylum, or on the run after having broken out from Arkham Asylum. Thugs won't touch him because he's a scary mother****er, considering how many times he has supposedly died and come back to life, and the damage and destruction he creates whenever he does *anything* its kind of a big incentive to run the other way... thats not to say people haven't tried... just Mr. J usually comes out on top, and everyone knows about, he's turned himself into a mythic legend not unlike Batman, while simultaneously also crafting a cult of personality around him and recruiting thugs of his own.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thugs won't touch him because he's a scary mother****er, considering how many times he has supposedly died and come back to life, and the damage and destruction he creates whenever he does *anything* its kind of a big incentive to run the other way... thats not to say people haven't tried... just Mr. J usually comes out on top, and everyone knows about, he's turned himself into a mythic legend not unlike Batman, while simultaneously also crafting a cult of personality around him and recruiting thugs of his own.

See, that is where I need a buckload of suspension of disbelief !

In the Justice miniseries the villians all band together as part of an evil scheme but leave the Joker out because he is to erratic and untrustworthy, which ends up being a big mistake. I think it was one of the last books Alex Ross did the full artwork for.



I don't remember which comic, but there was a line about how when criminals want to scare each other they tell Joker stories.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
He represents less of a threat to Batman, Gotham, and the world as a whole than any other villain in the Batman arsenal.

Actually, this statement right here is so patently false it makes me wonder if you know much about the Joker to begin with?? He represents a HUGE threat to B-man, and Gotham because ZERO feths are given. Ever.


Yeah, he seems to be the polar opposite of Batman, and he does things simply to see them happen, which makes him particularly dangerous. Alfred's spiel in Dark Knight, I think encompasses why Joker is so great and dangerous




I think where Joker reaches beyond the typical comic fan, especially in the movies, is the force/gravitas he bears on screen through the two main actors who played him. Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger. Now, some could argue that Nicholson is still in character in all his movies after all this time, but I feel that he only got part of the character down. But I think that ultimately, there's a part of us deep down inside that wants to go full Joker on society... Just burn it down for the sake of watching the flames, and that carries a certain level of power with it


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 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:

Ivan Freeze vs Batman is PTSD anger vs PTSD anger.

Freeze is not PTSD vs. PTSD. Sorry, it just isn't. In his back story, Victor Freeze looses his wife to an obscure disease that he tried to save her from. He went so far as to cryogenically freeze her to give himself more time, and had an accident resulting in his need to live in a sub-zero suit, or a sub-zero environment. It's more a battle of loss of Learned Love vs. loss of Ingrained Love.

Arkham City.

That was one epic death scene.

The joker is chaos, you never really know for sure what he would do next.

He is so genuinely gleeful of what he does, at times he seems to REALLY not register what he does as bad.
When he is vicious, he is over the top, the contrast with the twisted anger and the need to always make some point in what he does.

It is a character that is more fascinating than watching a car crash: you watch because you really have no idea what will happen next for sure.

I actually didn't find Heath Ledgers Joker to be all that good... or rather, all that *accurate*. Don't get me wrong, he played a great villain, but The Joker he was not.

 sing your life wrote:
He kills people by stabbing them in the eyes with pencils.

I seem to recall once watching Batman and one of the points raised is that Joker is one of the few supervillons Batman goes against who will kill. And he'll not just kill, but he'll kill anyone for what can be no reason at all. That makes him oft more dangerous than many of the others who are often looking to control or profit from their activities.

Which is another aspect, Joker doesn't really want to rule nor be rich; he wants challenge and he want's mayhem.

Joker is also reliant upon Batman to exist. Whilst Batman is partly reliant upon the super-villeins to exist and give his list meaning, Joker has a direct need to have an opponent (Batman) otherwise he hasn't got the challenge he seeks. Most of the other opponents that go against Batman don't require this dynamic, without Batman they'd continue on their various schemes.

Jack Nicholson. Batman was an obscure campy TV show that we watched re runs of when we were little, and some kids read the comics. Then the mega blockbuster comes along with Keaton and Nicholson and blows our collective minds.

I didn't really like Nicholsons version of The Joker either lol, it had its charms as well, but still feels off to me.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I didn't really like Nicholsons version of The Joker either lol, it had its charms as well, but still feels off to me.

I personally feel that both were great and "THE Joker" in their own rights, but each featured elements of the Joker character not really seen together in the same comic books, to me, it's almost like they were each playing 2 sides of a D4, and if they were to somehow be combined, then you'd have the "real" joker, or one that fits in ALL incarnations of the Batman franchise, not just certain writers or certain media.

feeder wrote:Jack Nicholson. Batman was an obscure campy TV show that we watched re runs of when we were little, and some kids read the comics. Then the mega blockbuster comes along with Keaton and Nicholson and blows our collective minds.

chaos0xomega wrote:Well, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that he wears a purple suit, has green hair, and clown makeup... and I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that 17 of the 85 episodes of The Animated Series (which is where many of the people my age first became familiar with The Bat) featured the Joker

Both Hamill and Nicholson were brilliant as the Joker as was Keith Ledger in The Dark Knight.
Like Ensis says they all portray slightly differing portrayals focusing on different elements of the character

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
He is possibly the most 'real' of all Batman's villains, in that he doesn't require a serious supsension of disbelief to accept

He does. He really does. I mean, as far as I know, he does not even have a fake identity or anything, and is supposed to just go around Gotham city with his full make-up (or disfigured face, depending on whichever version we are talking about anyway).

I think Ledger played a good Joker that, while crazy and very recognizable, managed to blend in very easily when he wanted to.

He does fit that oddly realistic feel the NOlan Batman films had going on...
Kinda odd now I come to think of it.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I didn't really like Nicholsons version of The Joker either lol, it had its charms as well, but still feels off to me.

I personally feel that both were great and "THE Joker" in their own rights, but each featured elements of the Joker character not really seen together in the same comic books, to me, it's almost like they were each playing 2 sides of a D4, and if they were to somehow be combined, then you'd have the "real" joker, or one that fits in ALL incarnations of the Batman franchise, not just certain writers or certain media.

I think Hammills Joker (hey, just because he only does the voice doesn't mean it isn't his iteration) is the definitive joker, especially in the two Arkham games.

As for Ledger, I actually don't much like the Nolanverse in general, so... *shrug*

Just another thought.



Batman is often viewed as one of the most dark and gritty of the super-heroes. His is the domain of the night, of the ugly side of the city. And Joker is the perfect darkness.

He's the darkest opposition to Batman. Whilst he might have a rather jovial appearance there is no denying that his activities are the most evil. He also has the strength that he won't just retire; he won't get rich and give up; he'll keep going. He's like that nightmare when you're being chased by something - no matter what you do its always there coming for you - always chasing.

Even Death doesn't seem to stop the Joker.

I don't believe in a definitive Joker, just as I don't believe in a definitive Batman. They are very old characters that have had a myriad of incarnations and interpretations; some versions I like better than others, but that is about it.

The Joker is Batman's iconic villain, for the same reason that Batman has risen above so many other comic book heroes - because they are just human.

Basically, a story in which a villain is a threat because he has super strength or laser beam eyes or whatever might be a good comic book staple and a fun read, but it is unlikely to stay with the reader, just as a story about a hero overcoming his problems with super strength or laser beam eyes might be a good comic book standard and a fun read, but unlikely to stay with the reader.

But a villain who is terrifying in spite of just being a man, or a hero who triumphs in spite of having no powers to rely on, well that's more of a challenge for a writer but because of that challenge the author is forced to get creative, and that leads to stories that are more likely to stay with us.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
It is actually the worst answer, as most if not all of the people I know or have ever talked to outside of a comic book shop have ever heard of it. I am asking why he is iconic to all people, not just comic readers. I wish to talk about the reason laymen have latched onto this villain and not others, not why comic fans like him. I thought I clarified that here.

I've bought exactly one comic book in my life, and I bought that because my family was on a long drive and I'd finished my book, and managed to nag my parents enough to buy me a Superman comic in a petrol station we stopped at. Almost everything I know about comic books I've learned from listening to my friends who are comic book fans. But I've still read The Killing Joke, because it's really kind of a big deal.


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 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Actually, this statement right here is so patently false it makes me wonder if you know much about the Joker to begin with?? He represents a HUGE threat to B-man, and Gotham because ZERO feths are given. Ever.

I think it's also a mistake to equate the scale of the threat with the interest in the character. Galactic level threats aren't necessarily more exciting than street level threats.

 sebster wrote:


I've bought exactly one comic book in my life, and I bought that because my family was on a long drive and I'd finished my book, and managed to nag my parents enough to buy me a Superman comic in a petrol station we stopped at. Almost everything I know about comic books I've learned from listening to my friends who are comic book fans. But I've still read The Killing Joke, because it's really kind of a big deal.

Are you most if not all of the people I have ever talked to outside of a comic book shop? In what way pray tell does your life experience invalidate mine? Game of Thrones is something the laymen is familiar with, the Avengers is another good example, The Killing Joke is not, plain and simple.

I did not know about The Killing Joke before this thread, but I had stopped reading comics in the mid-90s, and I mostly just read Green Lantern.

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Game of Thrones is something the laymen is familiar with, the Avengers is another good example, The Killing Joke is not, plain and simple.

A comic fan whose never read the Killing Joke is like a fantasy fan whose never read Lord of the Rings.

And the only thing you need to tell you the Joker is only human is that even he isn't crazy enough to feth with the IRS

He constantly makes batman question himself which is a big part of why he is such a powerful Villan. He doesn't just want to beat batman he wants batman to break batman not physically but mentally.

I am both a comic fan that has never read the Killing Joke and a fantasy fan that has never read Lord of the Rings. I am also a Sci-fi fan that has never watched Star Trek and a video game fan that has never played Mario.

I do not accept the premise that any genre has a single penultimate title that rules it. My first fantasy books were Dinotopia books, I also read Game of Thrones. My first comic book was Watchmen, and I read Batman and Spideman comics growing up. My first exposure to sci-fi was Stargate and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. And I grew up playing Dune 2000 and Sonic games.

In no way does not having taken the same path as another fan of the genre invalidate my stance on it. We all have our ins and outs that lead us to become who we are.

Funny video though, made me laugh.

I don't read comic books and even I've heard of "The Killing Joke", it's pretty well known.