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2014/04/30 03:12:49
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I am both a comic fan that has never read the Killing Joke and a fantasy fan that has never read Lord of the Rings. I am also a Sci-fi fan that has never watched Star Trek and a video game fan that has never played Mario.
And you haven't considered that maybe your knowledge of the genre is incomplete?
It's not about a penultimate title, it's about the fact that specific works have a powerful roll in their field. It's hard to have a complete understanding of any genre having skipped key works. Buck Rodgers and Flash Gordon for example were key in the development of the space opera which led to Star Wars. Don't need them to like Star Wars or be a fan, but it would be awkward to start a thread relating to Space Opera having never watched either or at least read the sparknotes XD
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 03:16:58
Cheesecat wrote: I don't read comic books and even I've heard of The Killing Joke", it's pretty well known.
Are you kidding me... This is a conversation about what makes the Joker Iconic to laymen not about how well known the killing joke is on a website named after a term synonymous for cool in a fictional species in the year 40,000 that grows from spores and fires guns with their minds. The people on this site are not a representative sample of the human race, and I refuse to accept that more than 1/50 of any town anywhere in America has ever heard of The Killing Joke. If I go into a random bar and yell out does anyone know about a book called The Killing Joke, do you really believe anyone will say yes? It is not pop culture, it is a book favored by nerds, get over it.
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts
2014/04/30 03:21:03
Subject: Re:Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
Are you kidding me... This is a conversation about what makes the Joker Iconic to laymen not about how well known the killing joke is on a website named after a term synonymous for cool in a fictional species in the year 40,000 that grows from spores and fires guns with their minds.
People have given you the answer to that question several times (and the short form seriously is to just read The Killing Joke), which kind of just leads back to my point. It's a little odd to start a debate about why something is iconic and then show a patent disregard for key works that helped made that thing iconic
The people on this site are not a representative sample of the human race,
Well, technically...
It is not pop culture, it is a book favored by nerds, get over it.
We... Are talking about Comic Books right? What is more nerdy than comic books (oh right toy soldiers ).
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I am both a comic fan that has never read the Killing Joke and a fantasy fan that has never read Lord of the Rings. I am also a Sci-fi fan that has never watched Star Trek and a video game fan that has never played Mario.
And you haven't considered that maybe your knowledge of the genre is incomplete?
It's not about a penultimate title, it's about the fact that specific works have a powerful roll in their field. It's hard to have a complete understanding of any genre having skipped key works. Buck Rodgers and Flash Gordon for example were key in the development of the space opera which led to Star Wars. Don't need them to like Star Wars or be a fan, but it would be awkward to start a thread relating to Space Opera having never watched either or at least read the sparknotes XD
Did I start a topic on comic books having only read the spark notes? No I did not, I never even asked about comic books, or made any generalizations about them. I asked why a character from them has become pop culture when many others have failed t, that is it, no more no less. One only needs familiarity with pop culture and some superficial knowledge of the human psyche to participate in this discussion. I am not talking about comic books, you are.
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts
2014/04/30 03:22:52
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
LordofHats wrote: You really want to say you started a thread about a comic book character but aren't talking about comic books XD That might be a little difficult
I think it is more difficult to assert that one can not talk about a pop culture icon without having a familiarity with it's origins. I Know no one that reads comics, well web comics maybe, but aside from that no one. Yet I know a huge amount of Spiderman, Batman, and Captain America fans. How do you think these people became fans of characters without ever having read a book about them? Is it impossible for any of them to talk about these characters knowing only what they do now? Because they have such discussions frequently.
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts
2014/04/30 03:31:33
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I think it is more difficult to assert that one can not talk about a pop culture icon without having a familiarity with it's origins.
No but it is a little odd to go asking around "why is character X so popular" and when people tell you to read the source material to blow them off. Mighty odd. Not that you have to, but then there are others who've posted decent explanations for why, who have read the source material, and you've blown them off too.
It's not rally a conversation to ask a question and then ignore all the answers and continue asking it. Might as well look up at the sky and beg God to give you the meaning of life
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 03:33:21
What I am trying to say is that The Killing Joke, a book that has been read by few people out there in the world, though I am sure that the number of people on this forum who have read it is quite high, the average person on the street has not. That being said if the average person has not read The Killing Joke, then the book can be said to have no bearing on the level of interest the average person has on the Joker. The average person has seen the Batman movies, at least a few of them, and the Batman TV shows, or at least one of them. Their perceptions of the character then can be said to be formed exclusively from these sources if it can be assumed they have never read a comic book. Since most people have never even considered picking up a comic book this can be assumed.
That being said The Killing Joke, whether or not it is a good book, and whether or not it has influenced the perceptions of people on this forum, did not do so to let’s say my 96 year old grandmother, my 55 year old mother in law, or the myriad of underprivileged children I work with every day. However all of these people know who the Joker is, and when asked to name a comic book villain he is the first one that comes to the minds of these sorts of people. The question is why? Why do these people think of him first? The Killing Joke, a book none of these people have ever read or for that matter heard of cannot be said to be the reason, and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion.
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts
2014/04/30 04:04:39
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
Definitely Death in the Family/Under the Red Hood-they're both the same story, just one is a movie adaptation of the other. I highly recommend the movie (I enjoyed it more than the comic, honestly). The Killing Joke is also excessively twisted, and I'm surprised they got away with as much as they did in it-showing Barbara topless with EVERYTHING on view as she was defiled was pretty much a shock, as it's been a big no-no in DC and Marvel history. But both stories show how twisted, sadistic and brilliant the Joker is. He's not a superhuman, but he is smart enough and calculating enough that he always has a plan. He doesn't lose because Batman beats him-he loses because he sets it up to lose after punishing Batman, goes to jail/Arkham, and gets out to do it all over again. He knows how every encounter will end. He gets his point across, gets caught, repeats process. By continuing on, he always wins, as everything goes according to plan-and his plan is an eternal dance with Batman. He feels that other characters get in the way, and he takes them out, because of his love for Batman. You could write a book on The Joker, a college level dissertation, and still only scratch the surface. He's the clown with an acid lined whoopie cushion, an exploding balloon pet, and a sugar filled cream pie to the face. And he's so much more. It would take a full night to even begin to explain him. You got some reading to do, man. Seriously, TKJ and DitF/UtRH, as listed above. Read/watch them pronto.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
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2014/04/30 04:21:43
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: Game of Thrones is something the laymen is familiar with, the Avengers is another good example, The Killing Joke is not, plain and simple.
I think maybe you're missing the point about why reading The Killing Joke is important to answering this question. It isn't that the Joker wasn't a big deal before then, and became a big deal afterwards, that somehow The Killing Joke transformed from just another villain to Batman's premier villain. The point is that the Killing Joke demonstrates what it is about the Joker that made him such an iconic villain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 04:30:58
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/04/30 04:26:06
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I think it is more difficult to assert that one can not talk about a pop culture icon without having a familiarity with it's origins.
No but it is a little odd to go asking around "why is character X so popular" and when people tell you to read the source material to blow them off. Mighty odd. Not that you have to, but then there are others who've posted decent explanations for why, who have read the source material, and you've blown them off too.
It's not rally a conversation to ask a question and then ignore all the answers and continue asking it. Might as well look up at the sky and beg God to give you the meaning of life
My advice....since he appears unwilling to actually read one of the most influential works in the Batman/Joker saga so that he might be able to appreciate another viewpoint.....
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2014/04/30 04:29:40
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
Well, it's kind of important in that the Killing Joke marked a significant shift in portrayal of the character. he always flipped around through most of the silver age and after from really dangerous to a gag villain. The Killing Joke established the character as a full blown psychotic mastermind of crime.
If you've seen Batman the Animated Series, you can kind of thank the Killing Joke that the Joker was actually dangerous, as the series was coming out right on the tail of that smash hit comic and they had it in mind when working on the character for the show (arguably, the comic is why the show was made at all. having led directly to the Batman movie which then lead to the animated series).
Otherwise you'd have gotten this Joker;
Who, while popular in his time, was kind of a product of a bygone era with way too much camp to be healthy
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 04:33:09
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: In no way does not having taken the same path as another fan of the genre invalidate my stance on it. We all have our ins and outs that lead us to become who we are.
Sure, when it comes to these discussions I agree that the geek cred argument that basically boils down to 'you haven't read x therefore your opinion doesn't count is boring'.
But I've never before met a fan of some genre who hears about one of the most important stories in the series and then just kind of... ignores that. I mean, lots of fans of fantasy haven't read LotR, and even more have tried to read it and given up, and that doesn't discount them from being fantasy fans. But your reaction here was to hear about The Killing Joke, ignore the suggestion to read it and just try to carry on with your conversation. That is an odd reaction for a fan to give... shouldn't you want to learn more about what fans consider the best stories in the genre?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: That being said if the average person has not read The Killing Joke, then the book can be said to have no bearing on the level of interest the average person has on the Joker.
No, but the book can effectively demonstrate what it is about the Joker that makes him such a fascinating villain.
That being said The Killing Joke, whether or not it is a good book, and whether or not it has influenced the perceptions of people on this forum, did not do so to let’s say my 96 year old grandmother, my 55 year old mother in law, or the myriad of underprivileged children I work with every day.
No, but it influenced how the Joker was written in The Dark Knight and the cartoons and comics that followed it, which was seen by people and affected how they saw the Joker.
That's how media works.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/04/30 04:39:21
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/04/30 04:54:31
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I never thought I was going to have to use the ignore function on this site... Well there is a first time for everything.
You are already ignoring what everyone is saying anyway so why not take the extra step.
People are suggesting you read the killing joke because it is the defining story ark in regards to the joker. A discussion on how popular the joker is and why has to include the book that helped cause him to become so iconic. The fact that you are ignoring everyones suggestion to read the book that made the Joker such as iconic character and has informed every single iteration of the character since implies you really don't want your question answered.
2014/04/30 05:27:28
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
.... Well I wanted to have a philosophical discussion about the personality and the character of the joker vs other DC villains, the actors playing him, his portrayal by artists and directors of the TV series and Movies, and how this affected how non comic fans came to love a comic character. something that Breotan, Paradigm, Squidmanlolz, sing your life, poppa G, Hybrid Son of Oxayotl, Ensis Ferrae, Ashiraya, Talizvar, Overead, feeder, d-usa, and purplefood seem to understand. Why you guys don't get that is something beyond me.
I will use an analogy. I asked why the light bulb became more popular than the oil lamp. You told me to read the history of the light bulb. Did the history of the light bulb factor into the decision of most wealthy people in major cities to install light bulbs? Or do you think it had more to do with the utility, and ease of use, possibly even the lessened risk of fire.
I asked you why the Joker is a household name and Darkseid is not. You told me that it is because of a book that I had literally never heard of. I told you I know lots of people, myself included that think of the Joker when we think of DC villains, and that book did not affect our decision. You told me I needed to read this book before I can tell you how I and these people I know came to this decision.
Your are asserting that a child needs to know the entire history of the discovery of electricity and the development of the light bulb before he decides whether to use a candle or a flashlight during a power outage. Your argument is illogical, irreverent, and not helping the conversation. If you would like to go have a conversation about how good the Killing Game is by all means make your own thread, go nuts, but The killing game though it may have had an interesting and historical effect on the character of the joker as he was portrayed in media, did not have an effect on how children and adults interpreted that media in the event they did not read the book.
I am tired of trying to reason with people that simply do not understand it. I have laid out a classically logical argument that would hold up in any philosophy classroom in the world, and not one of you Killing Game pushers have come forth with a single logical argument to contend with me. I am done with all of you and will begin ignoring people who are too ignorant to see what I have stated here is true as they do not merit any more of my time.
So far the only theories worth any attention offered here are:
The Joker is the only villain that regularly kills people
The Joker is the only villain that just loves being a villain (he has no endgame and will never retire)
The Joker and the Batman represent diametrically opposed viewpoints which makes their fights more interesting
The Joker is the only villain other villains are scared of
The Joker gets more air time
The Joker is a visually unique character
I thank those that participated in this conversation that lead to the above theories, I am binge watching the assorted Batman TV series to try and test screen time vs popularity with DC villains now. I strongly encourage others to make suggestions, this conversation is getting interesting.
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts
2014/04/30 05:34:58
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
You're tired of people that do not "understand it"...and yet you yourself will not even try to see why they believe that The Killing Joke has shaped/fleshed the Joker's as a villain and thus colored all incarnations of the Joker afterward (and because of this coloration, made him the most popular Batman villain).
Well...a picture is worth 1,000 words:
I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.
Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
2014/04/30 05:43:20
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I am tired of trying to reason with people that simply do not understand it. I have laid out a classically logical argument that would hold up in any philosophy classroom in the world, and not one of you Killing Game pushers have come forth with a single logical argument to contend with me.
That may well be the single, most perfect example of internet nonsense that I have ever read.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 05:50:43
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/04/30 05:48:45
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I am tired of trying to reason with people that simply do not understand it. I have laid out a classically logical argument that would hold up in any philosophy classroom in the world, and not one of you Killing Game pushers have come forth with a single logical argument to contend with me. I am done with all of you and will begin ignoring people who are too ignorant to see what I have stated here is true as they do not merit any more of my time.
So far the only theories worth any attention offered here are:
The Joker is the only villain that regularly kills people
The Joker is the only villain that just loves being a villain (he has no endgame and will never retire)
The Joker and the Batman represent diametrically opposed viewpoints which makes their fights more interesting
The Joker is the only villain other villains are scared of
The Joker gets more air time
The Joker is a visually unique character
No people are stating you should understand the character you are discussing in order to discuss what makes it iconic and you should start by reading the defining story arc of said character. Its like asking why descartes is taught in Philosophy class but refusing to read anything he wrote. Are you purposely calling it the killing game instead of the killing joke or have you really been paying that little attention to peoples posts.
I see nothing you have written here that would hold up in any Philosophy classroom. I don't even see anything that would be classed as Philosophy at all. Now that could be that your posts have been so long winded I have missed the Philosophical elements of it, more likely though that this isn't a Philosophical question at all. A sociological one maybe but not a Philosophical one.
I have also stated that Joker causes batman to question himself and the Joker attacks batmans physiologically as much as he attacks him physically it wouldnt be enough for the Joker to kill Batman he wants to destroy everything that makes Batman Who he is.
2014/04/30 06:27:21
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I Know no one that reads comics, well web comics maybe, but aside from that no one. Yet I know a huge amount of Spiderman, Batman, and Captain America fans. How do you think these people became fans of characters without ever having read a book about them?
I call BS on this one.... I'll gauranty that you do know someone who has or does read comic books, it's just that there are still quite a few people who will not admit to it. There are certainly people out there who have only recently become fans of certain characters due to hollywood hits, but again, I'd wager that they are in the minority. If you are talking to a mid-late 20s male, you are probably talking to someone who, if not reading the books, grew up watching the cartoons of Spiderman, and Batman, etc.
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:What I am trying to say is that The Killing Joke, a book that has been read by few people out there in the world, though I am sure that the number of people on this forum who have read it is quite high, the average person on the street has not. That being said if the average person has not read The Killing Joke, then the book can be said to have no bearing on the level of interest the average person has on the Joker. The average person has seen the Batman movies, at least a few of them, and the Batman TV shows, or at least one of them. Their perceptions of the character then can be said to be formed exclusively from these sources if it can be assumed they have never read a comic book. Since most people have never even considered picking up a comic book this can be assumed.
That being said The Killing Joke, whether or not it is a good book, and whether or not it has influenced the perceptions of people on this forum, did not do so to let’s say my 96 year old grandmother, my 55 year old mother in law, or the myriad of underprivileged children I work with every day. However all of these people know who the Joker is, and when asked to name a comic book villain he is the first one that comes to the minds of these sorts of people. The question is why? Why do these people think of him first? The Killing Joke, a book none of these people have ever read or for that matter heard of cannot be said to be the reason, and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion.
To answer your OP question, while completely "discounting" the Killing Joke, is a combination of longevity, marketing, good writing, and good acting (including voice acting). Some of these obviously combine, for instance, the Joker would not have had longevity without good writing, etc.
Beyond that, and I think we'd have to broaden the subject a bit here, is that comic books have actually pervaded Western (or at least US) society so deeply that even people who cannot afford a comic book will recognize Captain America's shield, or the batman logo, etc. If you want to talk about the 2 major comic brands specifically there is a trend of DC writing better villains overall, and Marvel writing better heroes overall... hence why, when I talk to people who aren't into comics will know Batman, Superman, and a gakload of Marvel heroes (even ones that havent had a movie yet), and then they'll know a couple iconic Marvel badguys, like Magneto and Doc Ock, but can rattle off a ton of DC baddies like Joker, Penguin, Lex, etc.
I'd say comics are so ingrained into society now that, as a whole they are almost like the Beatles... you don't have to be a fan to recognize their work/appearance, etc.
2014/04/30 06:51:39
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I am tired of trying to reason with people that simply do not understand it. I have laid out a classically logical argument that would hold up in any philosophy classroom in the world, and not one of you Killing Game pushers have come forth with a single logical argument to contend with me. I am done with all of you and will begin ignoring people who are too ignorant to see what I have stated here is true as they do not merit any more of my time.
So far the only theories worth any attention offered here are:
The Joker is the only villain that regularly kills people
The Joker is the only villain that just loves being a villain (he has no endgame and will never retire)
The Joker and the Batman represent diametrically opposed viewpoints which makes their fights more interesting
The Joker is the only villain other villains are scared of
The Joker gets more air time
The Joker is a visually unique character
No people are stating you should understand the character you are discussing in order to discuss what makes it iconic and you should start by reading the defining story arc of said character. Its like asking why descartes is taught in Philosophy class but refusing to read anything he wrote. Are you purposely calling it the killing game instead of the killing joke or have you really been paying that little attention to peoples posts.
I see nothing you have written here that would hold up in any Philosophy classroom. I don't even see anything that would be classed as Philosophy at all. Now that could be that your posts have been so long winded I have missed the Philosophical elements of it, more likely though that this isn't a Philosophical question at all. A sociological one maybe but not a Philosophical one.
I have also stated that Joker causes batman to question himself and the Joker attacks batmans physiologically as much as he attacks him physically it wouldnt be enough for the Joker to kill Batman he wants to destroy everything that makes Batman Who he is.
I fear you are unfamiliar with the basic principles taught in a logic 101 class. The argument I have repeatedly used is an if then statement often refereed to as Modus tollens. Modus tollens shows truth by showing the reliance of two statements upon one another. If I say if my shirt is red my name is ted I and my shirt is red, then according to the principals of logic my name is ted. It is necessary that only when my shirt is red my name be ted for the statement to be true.
The argument I am making is if someone need not be familiar with The Killing Joke (sorry for calling it the Killing Game) in order to have the Joker come to mind first when asked to name a DC villain, then the killing joke is not necessary to this phenomenon. But then I am asserting the negative, that the Killing Joke is not intrinsic to this conversation, and thus have nothing to prove, as according to the principles of logic one is never required to prove a negative.
You are arguing if the Killing Joke influenced the shows and movies that later influenced the populace, then understanding it is necessary to understanding the populaces fascination with the character. This statement is false as I can demonstrate via Modus tollens.
If a blue bird influenced a shoe company to make a shoe a specific shade of blue, then understanding the blue birds effect on the shoe company is necessary to understanding the populaces fascination with the shoe.
If it is possible to understand and analyze the populaces fascination with the shoe without ever knowing about the blue bird, it is clear that the blue bird is not necessary to this process.
In the same fashion if it is possible to understand how shows and movies featuring the Joker influence the populace without ever knowing about the Killing Joke then it is not necessary to this understanding.
The above is a classically logical argument deeply rooted in the traditions and principals of philosophy.. If you like I will submit the above to the philosophy department of my university for scrutiny, but as I have a rather strong grasp on the principle I feel this will not be necessary.
As to the second part of your post I assume you mean he affects Batman both psychologically and physically. This is interesting, the dual nature of the Joker's attacks on the Bat may well be something that has helped him stand out. I will add this to my list of inquiry on the subject.
OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote: I Know no one that reads comics, well web comics maybe, but aside from that no one. Yet I know a huge amount of Spiderman, Batman, and Captain America fans. How do you think these people became fans of characters without ever having read a book about them?
I call BS on this one.... I'll gauranty that you do know someone who has or does read comic books, it's just that there are still quite a few people who will not admit to it. There are certainly people out there who have only recently become fans of certain characters due to hollywood hits, but again, I'd wager that they are in the minority. If you are talking to a mid-late 20s male, you are probably talking to someone who, if not reading the books, grew up watching the cartoons of Spiderman, and Batman, etc.
This is the majority influence amongst my friends, the cartoons and movies. Some of the men have read Watchmen, two have read the Firefly comics, but amongst the women they have only seen the movies. I literally know no one that actually reads comic books. I only did for a short time myself, but after entering middle school I stopped. Since the 5th grade I have read Watchmen and the Firefly books as well as Kickass. Other than this I have never even thought about picking up the things, and I know few others that have. My one friend keeps saying he is going to read the Ironman comics, but he never does. That being said, however odd it may seem, at least in my local area, we are rather devoid of comic readers. My local game store only has one small shelf for the things as a result. I think Sapp reads them, the resident creepy guy at my game shop, but no one talks to him, so I don't know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/04/30 06:59:40
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts
2014/04/30 07:30:53
Subject: Why is Joker the most iconic Batman villain?
Cheesecat wrote: I don't read comic books and even I've heard of The Killing Joke", it's pretty well known.
Are you kidding me... This is a conversation about what makes the Joker Iconic to laymen not about how well known the killing joke is on a website named after a term synonymous for cool in a fictional species in the year 40,000 that grows from spores and fires guns with their minds. The people on this site are not a representative sample of the human race, and I refuse to accept that more than 1/50 of any town anywhere in America has ever heard of The Killing Joke. If I go into a random bar and yell out does anyone know about a book called The Killing Joke, do you really believe anyone will say yes? It is not pop culture, it is a book favored by nerds, get over it.
But having read the thread there seems no point really in leaving it open.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Tau Vior'la Sept: 6250 pts 
