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I am board and thought I would start a discussion to help pass the time. I do find it to be an interesting philosophical question however. Joker is not super strong, immortal, has no real powers to speak of. He represents less of a threat to Batman, Gotham, and the world as a whole than any other villain in the Batman arsenal. So what is it about this guy that has made him so fascinating since his creation? Why is he the one the writers always use to progress the story? And why does he make all the other Batman villains seem so bland by comparison?

Read the Killing Joke.

It's because they're complete opposites. Batman represents Law and Order whereas the Joker is the embodiment of chaos and anarchy: the killing Joke is also an excellent example of this

Is it a book about this topic?

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
Is it a book about this topic?

"The Killing Joke" is one of the most iconic Batman v. Joker stories. You can't discuss the dynamic between the two without it coming up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Batman represents Law and Order

He breaks the law constantly. Assault, breaking and entering, property damage, vigilantism, speeding, not filing a flight plan for the Batwing, child endangerment, ect ect.

The Joker is the most iconic because he's the one with the most colorful character.

I've not read any Batman comics, but from the various films and other reading, I think it's possibly (for me, at least), the fact he's human. Batman vs a Super-powered guy represents an uphill battle and a struggle against something greater but unnatural.

By contrast, the Joker is just as human as Batman, his equal in every way, representing the darker side of exactly what Batman stands for. It's the ultimate conflict simply because they are two faces of the same coin ('scuse the pun, I couldn't resist )

I imagine it's also a product of itself. Initially, the Joker succeed as a character for whatever reason. He was then used in significant events. This goes on, his popularity goes up, and the cycle repeats.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Batman represents Law and Order

He breaks the law constantly. Assault, breaking and entering, property damage, vigilantism, speeding, not filing a flight plan for the Batwing, child endangerment, ect ect.

By law, I'm assuming Larkin means that Batman has his own set of rules and morals which is very true. Batman operates under a very strict set of laws, they just don't happen to fall under the law.

Read this page. It's a wacky in character bit about the Joker including his character history.

The Joker was one of the first full comic villains, and oddly, not a stereotypical one. He's always managed to come of as one of the most unique and dangerous comic villains which basically secures his role as a big time player in the DC universe.

I liked Penguin myself. Hwa Hwa Hwa...

I always saw Batman's other characters as something completely different.

Bane vs Batman is force vs. force.
Poison Ivy vs Batman is lust vs discipline.
Ivan Freeze vs Batman is PTSD anger vs PTSD anger.
Penguin vs Batman is PTSD sorrow vs PTSD sorrow.
The Riddler is well, silly.

But the Joker, he is so much more. He represents an old philosophical argument, Hobbes vs Locke. He represents the belief that man is ultimately bad and needs society to tame him. Where as Batman represents the belief that people are basically good, and only need protecting from the influence of evil men in order to thrive. This argument is over two hundred years old, and is at the very heart of the liberal vs conservative argument that goes on every day in our country.

To me the Joker is so personal, because he is a fictional hub from which we can attach a philosophical view. A view that is polar opposite to that of his nemesis Batman. And it is simply the fact that no other villains in the Batman series represent such an easily identifiable and inflammatory conflict of interests that makes him so.

But that is just what I was thinking when I posted this topic.

I agree that The Killing Joke is the best way to explain their dynamic.

To sum it up, Geoff Klock said this in a review of The Killing Joke, "Both Batman and the Joker are creations of a random and tragic 'one bad day.' Batman spends his life forging meaning from the random tragedy, whereas the Joker reflects the absurdity of 'life, and all its random injustice.'"

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Batman represents Law and Order

He breaks the law constantly. Assault, breaking and entering, property damage, vigilantism, speeding, not filing a flight plan for the Batwing, child endangerment, ect ect.

By law, I'm assuming Larkin means that Batman has his own set of rules and morals which is very true. Batman operates under a very strict set of laws, they just don't happen to fall under the law.

That is what I meant
Batman can vary greatly as well depending on who is writing the comic at the time

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I am board and thought I would start a discussion to help pass the time. I do find it to be an interesting philosophical question however. Joker is not super strong, immortal, has no real powers to speak of. He represents less of a threat to Batman, Gotham, and the world as a whole than any other villain in the Batman arsenal.

Let me stop you right there, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Your lack of knowledge of what The Killing Joke is would be the clearest example of this being a fact, if you don't know The Killing Joke which is pretty much comic book famous, then you can't be expected to know some of the more 'obscure' representations of the character (and when I say obscure, I mean anything but). You're going to have a very hard time debating your side of this argument when you have very little understanding of what it is you're arguing.

Also worth noting is "A Death in the Family", I'm not going to spoil it for you, you can look up the plot points yourself, needless to say he is hardly 'less of a threat' than other villains.

While he may not be a herald of the apocalypse or whatever world-destroying nonsense you think would be more worthy of being 'more iconic', that is perhaps his greatest asset. He is possibly the most 'real' of all Batman's villains, in that he doesn't require a serious supsension of disbelief to accept, yet he has certain qualities that make him something more than a normal human, which (whether or not you realize it) is what people actually find frightening about the character.

In the metafictional sense, the explanation is that he is one of the most in-depth fleshed out characters, which itself is just a result of random happenstance, someone published some stories with The Joker, he became a popular character, and so writers made more storylines involving him because that sold well and thats what audiences wanted to see, further perpetuating his popularity.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 OzTeG8ndPwRfl wrote:
I am board and thought I would start a discussion to help pass the time. I do find it to be an interesting philosophical question however. Joker is not super strong, immortal, has no real powers to speak of. He represents less of a threat to Batman, Gotham, and the world as a whole than any other villain in the Batman arsenal.

Let me stop you right there, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Your lack of knowledge of what The Killing Joke is would be the clearest example of this being a fact, if you don't know The Killing Joke which is pretty much comic book famous, then you can't be expected to know some of the more 'obscure' representations of the character (and when I say obscure, I mean anything but). You're going to have a very hard time debating your side of this argument when you have very little understanding of what it is you're arguing.

Also worth noting is "A Death in the Family", I'm not going to spoil it for you, you can look up the plot points yourself, needless to say he is hardly 'less of a threat' than other villains.

While he may not be a herald of the apocalypse or whatever world-destroying nonsense you think would be more worthy of being 'more iconic', that is perhaps his greatest asset. He is possibly the most 'real' of all Batman's villains, in that he doesn't require a serious supsension of disbelief to accept, yet he has certain qualities that make him something more than a normal human, which (whether or not you realize it) is what people actually find frightening about the character.

In the metafictional sense, the explanation is that he is one of the most in-depth fleshed out characters, which itself is just a result of random happenstance, someone published some stories with The Joker, he became a popular character, and so writers made more storylines involving him because that sold well and thats what audiences wanted to see, further perpetuating his popularity.

I was by no means saying that any single characteristic of the Joker or any other character for that matter is more worthy than any other of being iconic. I feel that the joker is very deserving of his status as an iconic character, and though I understand that certain plot points can make a character. And I am only familiar with some 100 (a rough estimate not an exact number) of the standard Batman comic series that came out between 1995 and 1998, the whole of every cartoon series to ever be made featuring Batman, and every movie that has included the Joker as a character. However I do not view my stance with this knowledge as one of complete ignorance of the character. Having not read many of the comic books does not mean I am unaware of the character's personality, or his MO.

This being said I was not referring to what made the Joker so compelling to the comic book fold. I have very little interest in a characters effect on such a small and niche crowd. I am interested on the Joker as a pop culture icon. He has become so identifiable that he is easily one of the best known comic book villains of all time. I honestly know few people that could name many others, and his name is always the first to come to the mind of the laymen. My question is why? Why is the joker so iconic to these people? Why does he supersede the niche crowd of comic lovers? And how is it possible that he did this long before the tragic and over publicized death of an actor that portrayed him?

I for instance submit that Bane is such an obscure villain that prior to the Dark Knight Rises few if any laymen were aware he even existed. However Joker was well known and recognized even by my friends growing up in the 90's. And people prior to the movie The Dark Knight could describe the joker rather vividly despite having only superficial knowledge of the character.

Ask a typical comic critic and they'll give you an answer for that; Bane was a gimmick. You can only break the Bat once, and once you've done it, you kind of lose your edge. He's famous in Comic circles as a character, but honestly, what else could he honestly do to spark interest? He went for the touch down on the first play and got it. Everything else that followed just wasn't as exciting

He kills people by stabbing them in the eyes with pencils.

Another good example is Batman: Under the Red hood.

Frankly as a villain, the Joker is probably one of the most successful supervillains in history when it comes to cleaning out good guys and being a total beast while he does it (his edge being that he always comes at you with crazy).

 LordofHats wrote:
Ask a typical comic critic and they'll give you an answer for that; Bane was a gimmick. You can only break the Bat once, and once you've done it, you kind of lose your edge. He's famous in Comic circles as a character, but honestly, what else could he honestly do to spark interest? He went for the touch down on the first play and got it. Everything else that followed just wasn't as exciting

This is true, but I feel you are focusing too much on Bane. This was not my intention by using him as an example. Other examples include Raz al Ghul, fetured in batman begins, who is often now refered to as the guy that Liam Neeson played, The Scare Crow, who now one can apparently remember the name of, Poison Ivy, who most people don't even know is a character in DC comics, Ivan Freeze, the Royal Flush Gang, Penguin, all no names that people have failed to remember even the smallest bits about. The Riddler even is only remembered because Jim Carrey played the role and sucked at it. The question is why do the writers, the fans, and the laymen of the world see the Joker as so much more than these and other villains?

I like the Joker from Flashpoint...

But then again Flaahpoint presents a completely different dynamic of the relationship between Batman and Joker.

Death of the Family is a more recent storyline that kind of shows how the Joker has evolved over the decades and how he sees his crime in relation to Batman. Some might scoff because it's New52, but I enjoyed it.

The other villains in the DC universe fear the Joker, and try to avoid him.

I'm going to have to agree with chaos0xomega that you don't really seem to know enough about the subject to have a good debate about it, especially with statements like "The Riddler even is only remembered because Jim Carrey played the role and sucked at it".

The question is why do the writers, the fans, and the laymen of the world see the Joker as so much more than these and other villains?

He's been around longer. He crippled Barbra Gordon, he's come closer to killing the Bat than anyone short of Dark Seid, and he killed Jason Todd. The Batman Joker rivalry is so long running and intermixed between the characters that they can't be separated. You can't have Superman with Lex Luthor, can't have Harry Potter without Voldemort, and Mario without Bowser is just an unemployed plumber

Putting it another way, when Dark Seid 'killed' Bruce Wayne, the Joker freaking decided nothing was worth his time anymore and went into a damn coma (or maybe that was Dark Knight Returns or both?)

I'm a tremendous fan of Batman and it really warms my heart to see volume of people that have responded to this with "Read the Killing Joke."

Because really... that's the correct answer. If you're looking for a narrative example of why the Joker is Batman's most iconic villain then you don't need to look any further.

 LordofHats wrote:
Mario without Bowser is just an unemployed plumber

You haven't played any of the Mario RPG games, have you?

I think I already addressed that:

"In the metafictional sense, the explanation is that he is one of the most in-depth fleshed out characters, which itself is just a result of random happenstance, someone published some stories with The Joker, he became a popular character, and so writers made more storylines involving him because that sold well and thats what audiences wanted to see, further perpetuating his popularity."

If you'd like me to go further, he is iconic because he is prolific and because he is closely associated with Batman as a result.

Oh please, you know what I mean

Because everyone relates to him. Or at least I do.

 Ahtman wrote:
The other villains in the DC universe fear the Joker, and try to avoid him.

I'm going to have to agree with chaos0xomega that you don't really seem to know enough about the subject to have a good debate about it, especially with statements like "The Riddler even is only remembered because Jim Carrey played the role and sucked at it".

Not every villain in the DC universe is even aware of the Joker's existence. I find it hard to believe for instance that villains like Darkseid, who has already met the joker once, though he was being controlled by Bat-Mite at the time, even remember such an encounter with him, and would consider him a threat at all even if they did.

I'm a tremendous fan of Batman and it really warms my heart to see volume of people that have responded to this with "Read the Killing Joke."

Because really... that's the correct answer. If you're looking for a narrative example of why the Joker is Batman's most iconic villain then you don't need to look any further.

It is actually the worst answer, as most if not all of the people I know or have ever talked to outside of a comic book shop have ever heard of it. I am asking why he is iconic to all people, not just comic readers. I wish to talk about the reason laymen have latched onto this villain and not others, not why comic fans like him. I thought I clarified that here.

This being said I was not referring to what made the Joker so compelling to the comic book fold. I have very little interest in a characters effect on such a small and niche crowd. I am interested on the Joker as a pop culture icon. He has become so identifiable that he is easily one of the best known comic book villains of all time. I honestly know few people that could name many others, and his name is always the first to come to the mind of the laymen. My question is why? Why is the joker so iconic to these people? Why does he supersede the niche crowd of comic lovers? And how is it possible that he did this long before the tragic and over publicized death of an actor that portrayed him?

I for instance submit that Bane is such an obscure villain that prior to the Dark Knight Rises few if any laymen were aware he even existed. However Joker was well known and recognized even by my friends growing up in the 90's. And people prior to the movie The Dark Knight could describe the joker rather vividly despite having only superficial knowledge of the character.

So I think it is clear, that any book, or story featuring the Joker that has sold less than 50,000,000 copies is irrelevant to this conversation. As is any cartoon, or other motion picture featuring the character that has not been shown on a major TV network. All that matters is why people that had no other reason to specifically latch onto a fictional character chose to do so in the specific instance of the Joker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh my above argument is flawed the number of copies a book sells has no bearing on its effect of pop culture. I intended this to mean the number of people who are aware of the story. Apologies.