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Honestly the biggest issue for me will be if Daemonology comes with a disclaimer "Requires Codex: Chaos Daemons for use".

It's in the realm of plausible fluff, but I don't know how the execution will turn out so I will reserve judgment.

Wild mass guessing: Factions will get their own special kinds of Daemons to summon to promote new GW models.

Like how the Eldar theorize that the legion of the damned are Imperial Daemons, and the Avatar of Khaine is an Eldar daemon in essence.

 kronk wrote:
If it's an accident, like a psychic mishap table or Perils of the Warp table, I'll laugh my ass off and take a psycher in every army I can for the LOL's!

I actually would like a perils table, that would be fun, something like roll 2D6 (like the champions table in the CSM codex) and you can get anything from summoning a greater daemon or lesser daemons (roll on a table to see which alignment) to having your psyker explode or become possessed. However everyone being able to summon daemons is something I really cannot agree with. Draigo summoning a blood thirster? Tigurius summoning a great unclean one? Eldrad summoning a keeper of secrets? Hell even if they wanted to summon a daemon for some reason why would a daemon agree to be summoned by one of its enemies? Would a Blood Thirster suddenly trust Draigo to not stab him in the back or try and imprison him in a tesseract labyrinth?

CSM, daemons, and possibly guard (for allies) being able to summon daemon I could live with, the great psykers of the Imperium and Eldar however? Not so much.

If only they currently had a mechanic in place to make it a roughly 6% chance that you suffer the dangers of the warp and take a wound with no saves allowed...
Hmmmm....

 herpguy wrote:
If only they currently had a mechanic in place to make it a roughly 6% chance that you suffer the dangers of the warp and take a wound with no saves allowed...
Hmmmm....

Many people find that to be a little bland and uninspired.

Are these the same people who endlessly complain about random tables?

So does this mean everyone has to buy a bloodthirster model?

Icculus wrote:So does this mean everyone has to buy a bloodthirster model?

Kain wrote:Wild mass guessing: Factions will get their own special kinds of Daemons to summon to promote new GW models.

Like how the Eldar theorize that the legion of the damned are Imperial Daemons, and the Avatar of Khaine is an Eldar daemon in essence.

Perhaps not.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
people the option to have their psykers take wild risks to bring daemonic forces into the battle is an exaggerated representation of the numerous dangers of using the powers of the warp and the ever-present temptation of chaos.

Except this isn't a wild risk, this is signing the death warrant of the entire chapter.

Chaos is the great enemy - the force that almost destroyed the Imperium of Man during the Heresy. Regardless of how desperate the circumstances are a loyal chapter that summons a daemon has fallen to the Ruinous Powers. What does it matter if the battle is won when the cost is that the chapter is excomunicated and likely wiped out by the Inquisition, the Sororitas, the Grey Knights or all of the above. Assuming the Space Wolves don't show up to reenact the burning of Prospero.

Faced with certain death a loyal marine does not turn to Chaos for aid, A loyal marine reloads his bolter and resolves to fight to his last breath, because that is his duty, and only in death does duty end.

pm713 wrote:
Are these the same people who endlessly complain about random tables?

Nah you're thinking of all the Eldar players cheesing rules of "But it doesnt say I CAN'T do X" when interpreting Blessings and stacking the same one over and over again.

Which is hilarious because next Edition is ridding us of this monstrosity and ridding us of Dark Eldar + Eldar BB alliances. (As they damn well should!)

GoliothOnline wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Are these the same people who endlessly complain about random tables?

Nah you're thinking of all the Eldar players cheesing rules of "But it doesnt say I CAN'T do X" when interpreting Blessings and stacking the same one over and over again.

Which is hilarious because next Edition is ridding us of this monstrosity and ridding us of Dark Eldar + Eldar BB alliances. (As they damn well should!)

Are you sure?

Do you have scans?

Because the next ed may very well make everyone BBs with everyone.

A lot of people sort of ignore the fact that the IoM is already using daemon possessed and daemon weapons in their arsenal. They take a prominent place in inquisition led armies.

They also use the warp extensively both to travel and send messages. This is why the emperor and golden throne are key as they enable the IoM to do so "reliably".

Another interesting thing is that the entities of the warp are not all malevolent. There are a number of warp entities that are neutral or even opposed to the 4 chaos deities. There are even units in the IoM and CWE armies which are likely warp entities.

What everyone is forgetting about this is that all psykers have the option to tempt daemons into possessing them or to try and bring one into the materium. The loyalists and the Chaos forces both can do it. If GW gives you the choices that exist in the lore and you choose to summon a daemon then they just made the game way more lore accurate. If you decide to summon a daemon and you say your SM special snow flakes are loyal then it is YOU who are not following the lore. According to the logic I have heard in these threads people will not be happy unless a GW rep comes along and exterimatus' their SM models for the player's decisions.

I dont agree with everyone willingly summoning a demon especially loyalist imperial forces as it is completely against the fluff! However if it was a mishap for example a lesser veriant of pysker would be more susceptible to the lure of chaos however a more trained and experienced version of psyker like Draigo or another SM psyker then it should be even further on the mishap table. However for chaos forces to be able to do so them that would be okay

If the rules are going to allow a psyker to intentionally try and transform himself into a greater daemon, then I don't like it.

Essentially what will happen is that people will ally with Eldar or IG in order to get as many cheap psykers as they can - even if it's as the worst kind of ally.

Then, they'll spend the game attempting to promote those "pawns" into bloodthirsters or whatever. It's not really any different than paying the points cost for a single shot weapon. If it works, fantastic - they just upgraded their 1500 point army into a 1750 one. If not, well, it didn't cost much.

So, no, I'm not for having the chance to upgrade an army mid-game to a different point level.

And, yes, I consider this to be completely different from the situation of a CSM being upgraded, simply because I haven't seen that happen very often and it takes quite a bit to get to that point.

It fits the background.

Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons if they want to, every single one. Most don't want to. Fewer can control what they summon.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It fits the background.

Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons if they want to, every single one. Most don't want to. Fewer can control what they summon.

It really doesn't, most Psykers in the 40K universe, at least human ones, which will be amongst the most numerous because humans are the most populous race, need to be trained or destroyed or they're in danger of being posessed by a daemon, which isn't the same.

clively wrote:
If the rules are going to allow a psyker to intentionally try and transform himself into a greater daemon, then I don't like it.

Essentially what will happen is that people will ally with Eldar or IG in order to get as many cheap psykers as they can - even if it's as the worst kind of ally.

And then grey knights (If they can do it, which would be EXTREMELY unfluffy) might become competitive, with every single model in there army being a psycker. Just have an army full of strike squads. With that many pyskers theres going to be quite allot of greater deamons going around.

A lot of people sort of ignore the fact that the IoM is already using daemon possessed and daemon weapons in their arsenal. They take a prominent place in inquisition led armies.

Assuming said Inquisitor is a Radical. Puritan Inquisitors would not countenance the thought, and to even suggest it to them is Heresy of the worst sort. Some Puritan Inquisitors won't even use living Psykers, they keep them as what are basically psychic brains in jars, kept alive by arcane sciences.

Are we all forgetting that there already IS an entry for Conjuration Powers that were never really expanded upon in the Rulebook today? I posted a Question about it almost a year ago and got Zero replies....

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
soooo, anyone know who is gonna have any Conjuration spells/powers in the new codexes, since Daemons bizarrely don't?

Are there any conjuring powers in the game yet?

I also notice no Maelstrom powers listed either... Did the creators forget a few things?

pm713 wrote:
I'm on the fence. Could be good. Could be horrid. Just remember "Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment".

I like the idea, it's actually really cool for Chaos armies, but it's really going to depend on the execution. There's not enough information on the powers or psychic phase to give a real judgement thus far.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Are we all forgetting that there already IS an entry for Conjuration Powers that were never really expanded upon in the Rulebook today? I posted a Question about it almost a year ago and got Zero replies....

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
soooo, anyone know who is gonna have any Conjuration spells/powers in the new codexes, since Daemons bizarrely don't?

Are there any conjuring powers in the game yet?

I also notice no Maelstrom powers listed either... Did the creators forget a few things?

Looks like they remembered once reading your post and implemented it for the new edition/tweak.

Depending on how the rules are worded, an all-psyker unbound army could be quite fun.
1850pts gives you 54 Eldar Warlocks all rolling on this Daemonology table. Or 23 Spirit Seers or 18 Farseers depending on how many warp charges are needed to summon stuff. Even if all the Farseers die summoning, say you get 9 greater daemons from that??

 Psienesis wrote:
Toying with the Warp is dangerous, regardless of who you are when you do it. Psychic Powers are super-powerful on the tabletop, they should come with commensurate risks.

Indeed. WHich is a reason for Perils of the Warp, not for every psyker in the game to be able to summon daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It fits the background.

Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons if they want to, every single one. Most don't want to. ...

...because most undergo some fairly extensive training processes to ensure that they won't.

 da001 wrote:
I think it depends of what the Daemons do after they have been summoned.

If an imperial psyker summons a daemon and then the daemon is under imperial control, working together with priests or astartes, or getting objectives or similar, it doesn´t seem right.

If once the daemon appears then it attacks randomly or charge against the nearest enemy, sounds fluffy enough to me.

This would be the ideal way to do it in my opinion.

If it's a choice and the daemon works for your benefit only, then my Dark Angels simply won't be rolling on that particular table. If I ever get the chaos army put together, I'll be all over it!

 ashcroft wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
people the option to have their psykers take wild risks to bring daemonic forces into the battle is an exaggerated representation of the numerous dangers of using the powers of the warp and the ever-present temptation of chaos.

Except this isn't a wild risk, this is signing the death warrant of the entire chapter.

Chaos is the great enemy - the force that almost destroyed the Imperium of Man during the Heresy. Regardless of how desperate the circumstances are a loyal chapter that summons a daemon has fallen to the Ruinous Powers. What does it matter if the battle is won when the cost is that the chapter is excomunicated and likely wiped out by the Inquisition, the Sororitas, the Grey Knights or all of the above. Assuming the Space Wolves don't show up to reenact the burning of Prospero.

Faced with certain death a loyal marine does not turn to Chaos for aid, A loyal marine reloads his bolter and resolves to fight to his last breath, because that is his duty, and only in death does duty end.

The Relictors would like a word with you...



Personally I have no problem with a Loyalist player selling their soul, as long as they put some damn effort into it!
ie: model the stuff appropriately, such as added purity seals, chained tomes of forbidden knowledge (perhaps a fabled Grimoire?!), more 'evil looking' swords/axes carries by the officers, etc...

If it's just some gakker taking their current Ultrasmurfs and summoning a Greater then sure it's super stupid. But there are ways to make it fully fit the established background.

Radicals a huge part of the Inquisition, from a faction trying to essentially re-create a new Horus, to those who believe in actively using Chaos tainted artifacts to fight Chaos, etc... The Relictors are only the most (in)famous Chapter who really walk that fine line between salvation or eternal damnation for trying to turn the power of the enemy against itself. There's likely other secretive Chapters out there who also consort with Radicals.

 Psienesis wrote:
Toying with the Warp is dangerous, regardless of who you are when you do it. Psychic Powers are super-powerful on the tabletop, they should come with commensurate risks.

I dunno mate. Some of those pyromancy spells don't look that powerful to me

I will only agree to the summon daemons rule only if Daemons players can roll on their table and summon a squad of Grey Knights Palidins to fight alongside daemons in battle.

Seems only far as long as I can fluff a story. The chance seems equal to a SM psyker summoning a daemon on purpose.

I don't really like it.. Daemons summoning them sure, Chaos summoning them absolutely. An Imperial Psyker deciding to sac himself to summon a Bloodthirster.. not so much.

 Psienesis wrote:

A lot of people sort of ignore the fact that the IoM is already using daemon possessed and daemon weapons in their arsenal. They take a prominent place in inquisition led armies.

Assuming said Inquisitor is a Radical. Puritan Inquisitors would not countenance the thought, and to even suggest it to them is Heresy of the worst sort. Some Puritan Inquisitors won't even use living Psykers, they keep them as what are basically psychic brains in jars, kept alive by arcane sciences.

Heck even being radical doesn't necessitate all of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Toying with the Warp is dangerous, regardless of who you are when you do it. Psychic Powers are super-powerful on the tabletop, they should come with commensurate risks.

Indeed. WHich is a reason for Perils of the Warp, not for every psyker in the game to be able to summon daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It fits the background.

Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons if they want to, every single one. Most don't want to. ...

...because most undergo some fairly extensive training processes to ensure that they won't.

And if they have signs of treachery eve in the guard forces, all are trained to be privy to assist in killing him.

 azreal13 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
It fits the background.

Every psyker in 40k can summon daemons if they want to, every single one. Most don't want to. Fewer can control what they summon.

It really doesn't, most Psykers in the 40K universe, at least human ones, which will be amongst the most numerous because humans are the most populous race, need to be trained or destroyed or they're in danger of being posessed by a daemon, which isn't the same.

Any psyker powerful enough to affect battles, eg every psyker in the game, is powerful enough to summon daemons if they so choose.