What is the best tank for Knight Commander Pask?

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**Sir Arun**

TheSilo wrote:
I'm with you. In an un-upgraded vanquisher he's 205 points, I would rather take a vendetta and save the points. A normally outfitted punisher with Pask is gonna cost 230 points, which is way more points than I like to put in any single model. I could get three wyverns for that, do way more damage, and have points left over. That would be 12 S4 blast templates, re-roll scatter, re-roll to wound, ignore cover, with double the range of the punisher. For me, Pask is just too many points.

215 actually, given you first buy the Vanquisher chassis, then the tank commander, then the pask upgrade and the mandatory LC. This is around 50 points costlier than most enemy battle tanks but the real value comes from the PE buff granted to his retunie Russes. If Pask kills 2 enemy battle tanks (which he will) he will make more than enough points back. He works best in larger point games.

TheSilo wrote:
If you must take Pask, to me, an executioner seems like a no-brainer. Re-roll 1's against his preferred enemy!? With a gets hot weapon, he basically neutralizes the only concern that I have about getting a normal executioner. He's going to be super expensive, but will excel at anything you need him for.

Not really. The pask Executioner only gains the blind large blast. You can put Pask in some other tank and take an Executioner retinue also benefiting from avoiding gets hot rolls. Only way to roll with full blown executioner plasma boats without requiring a primaris, IMO.

TheSilo wrote:
The Paskisher is just not effective against enemy armor saves. True, you'll get 3 rending hits per turn on average, but even against terminators, you're only going to kill 2 per turn. Compare that with a much cheaper vanilla demolisher, which will kill 55% of the terminators that touch it's pie plate. Against anything with a 4+ or better, I'd rather just have a vanilla Russ, which will 2+ AP3 every infantry in the game, for a fraction of the points. And against anything with a 5+ or worse save, I'd rather have wyverns.

Demolisher without Pask is 50 points cheaper than Punisher with LC and Pask. LRBT is 70 points cheaper. While you may have a point, neither of these are as good all-rounders as the Paskisher (LRBT has range, but cannot scratch termies and is hands down the inferior tank hunter; Demolisher comes close in effectivity but shares the low range) that can mow down anything from Orks to Terminators to Tanks with impunity.

**Tenzilla**

TheSilo wrote:
Tenzilla wrote:
Leave pask at home and save 40 pts.

I'm with you. In an un-upgraded vanquisher he's 205 points, I would rather take a vendetta and save the points. A normally outfitted punisher with Pask is gonna cost 230 points, which is way more points than I like to put in any single model. I could get three wyverns for that, do way more damage, and have points left over. That would be 12 S4 blast templates, re-roll scatter, re-roll to wound, ignore cover, with double the range of the punisher. For me, Pask is just too many points. As an IG player, I get much more mileage out of adding more guns and targets to my army than kitting out a single uber-unit.

If you must take Pask, to me, an executioner seems like a no-brainer. Re-roll 1's against his preferred enemy!? With a gets hot weapon, he basically neutralizes the only concern that I have about getting a normal executioner. He's going to be super expensive, but will excel at anything you need him for.

The Paskisher is just not effective against enemy armor saves. True, you'll get 3 rending hits per turn on average, but even against terminators, you're only going to kill 2 per turn. Compare that with a much cheaper vanilla demolisher, which will kill 55% of the terminators that touch it's pie plate. Against anything with a 4+ or better, I'd rather just have a vanilla Russ, which will 2+ AP3 every infantry in the game, for a fraction of the points. And against anything with a 5+ or worse save, I'd rather have wyverns.

Finally someone who makes sense.

**TheSilo**

I did forget that he confers preferred enemy to the entire squad. But any tank commander will get that trait 1/3rd the time. You're paying 40 points just to get your choice warlord trait.

Sir Arun, you're right about the executioner, probably better as a buddy tank.

I just think that people are overstating how good his crack-shot ability is (which is the only thing that separates him from a regular commander). It's not worth 40 points just to get rending. Against vehicles, an exterminator will already pen or glance everything but AV 14 on a 6. And a punisher's normal shots will mostly be wasted. Seems silly to fish for rending shots against vehicles that you otherwise can't harm.

I know people aren't high on the demolisher, but to my mind, it seems to excel at everything they want from Paskishers, for way fewer points.

Or, if you want to put wounds on the table and force enemy armor saves en masse, you gotta try the wyvern. A battery of wyverns will put out more wounds than Pask for so few points. I've only been running a single wyvern, and I am going to build out to three. I thought I was sold when it took out two Grey Knight paladins on turn 1. Next game it took out 11 hormagaunts on turn 1.

**gmaleron**

TheSilo wrote:

The Paskisher is just not effective against enemy armor saves. True, you'll get 3 rending hits per turn on average, but even against terminators, you're only going to kill 2 per turn. Compare that with a much cheaper vanilla demolisher, which will kill 55% of the terminators that touch it's pie plate. Against anything with a 4+ or better, I'd rather just have a vanilla Russ, which will 2+ AP3 every infantry in the game, for a fraction of the points. And against anything with a 5+ or worse save, I'd rather have wyverns.

it is not effective against enemy armor saves because that is not how it inflicts casualties. It forces your opponent to roll so many dice that he fails some saves, an "accuracy by volume approach". Even without rending it still is able to inflict mass amounts of casualties, and as mentioned with Multi-Melta Side Sponsons and\or Hull Mounted Lascannon makes him expensive but way more versatile whereas the Vanquisher has a very limited role.

**TheSilo**

gmaleron wrote:
TheSilo wrote:

The Paskisher is just not effective against enemy armor saves. True, you'll get 3 rending hits per turn on average, but even against terminators, you're only going to kill 2 per turn. Compare that with a much cheaper vanilla demolisher, which will kill 55% of the terminators that touch it's pie plate. Against anything with a 4+ or better, I'd rather just have a vanilla Russ, which will 2+ AP3 every infantry in the game, for a fraction of the points. And against anything with a 5+ or worse save, I'd rather have wyverns.

it is not effective against enemy armor saves because that is not how it inflicts casualties. It forces your opponent to roll so many dice that he fails some saves, an "accuracy by volume approach". Even without rending it still is able to inflict mass amounts of casualties, and as mentioned with Multi-Melta Side Sponsons and\or Hull Mounted Lascannon makes him expensive but way more versatile whereas the Vanquisher has a very limited role.

Have you tried the wyvern?

Try it once, thank me later.

**liquidjoshi**

Ignores the fact the Punisher causes casualties via mass wounds, but recommends the Wyvern for that exact reason.

Nope, not seeing the logic there.

The fact is, Pask can threaten those tanks as well as the infantry. He always has a target. My opponent brings AV 11+ transports for his troops, there's jack all a Wyvern can do now. Gotta rely on the rest of the list for that, and, well, when did you last see a lasgun pop a Rhino?

I bring Pask, I have a threat against everything. Wyverns, sure I can mess up infantry, but then so can literally everything else in my list. Whereas Pask can take the infantry if I need more infantry dead, or he can tackle that Rhino rush, Bloodthirster, Leman Russ... Anything that finds itself in range.

**jamin484**

liquidjoshi wrote:
Ignores the fact the Punisher causes casualties via mass wounds, but recommends the Wyvern for that exact reason.

Nope, not seeing the logic there.

The fact is, Pask can threaten those tanks as well as the infantry. He always has a target. My opponent brings AV 11+ transports for his troops, there's jack all a Wyvern can do now. Gotta rely on the rest of the list for that, and, well, when did you last see a lasgun pop a Rhino?

I bring Pask, I have a threat against everything. Wyverns, sure I can mess up infantry, but then so can literally everything else in my list. Whereas Pask can take the infantry if I need more infantry dead, or he can tackle that Rhino rush, Bloodthirster, Leman Russ... Anything that finds itself in range.

This guy is spot on I've used pask enough times to know he can kill anything from nob bikers to fmc to imperial knights and that's with a cheap retinue...

**ansacs**

Tenzilla wrote:
TheSilo wrote:
Tenzilla wrote:
Leave pask at home and save 40 pts.

I'm with you. In an un-upgraded vanquisher he's 205 points, I would rather take a vendetta and save the points. A normally outfitted punisher with Pask is gonna cost 230 points, which is way more points than I like to put in any single model. I could get three wyverns for that, do way more damage, and have points left over. That would be 12 S4 blast templates, re-roll scatter, re-roll to wound, ignore cover, with double the range of the punisher. For me, Pask is just too many points. As an IG player, I get much more mileage out of adding more guns and targets to my army than kitting out a single uber-unit.

If you must take Pask, to me, an executioner seems like a no-brainer. Re-roll 1's against his preferred enemy!? With a gets hot weapon, he basically neutralizes the only concern that I have about getting a normal executioner. He's going to be super expensive, but will excel at anything you need him for.

The Paskisher is just not effective against enemy armor saves. True, you'll get 3 rending hits per turn on average, but even against terminators, you're only going to kill 2 per turn. Compare that with a much cheaper vanilla demolisher, which will kill 55% of the terminators that touch it's pie plate. Against anything with a 4+ or better, I'd rather just have a vanilla Russ, which will 2+ AP3 every infantry in the game, for a fraction of the points. And against anything with a 5+ or worse save, I'd rather have wyverns.

Finally someone who makes sense.

You guys really should look at the maths for the pask punisher cannon because it is strikingly obvious you have not and your "figures" are wrong.

Why would you count exclusively on rending hits to kill terminators. With a pask punisher you will average ~4 dead terminators with punisher cannon alone and another 1 terminator with the HBs. That is a heck of a lot more than "2 terminators". Against a standard T6 Sv3+ MC (ie nids) you deal ~6 wounds (ie kill it), against your average grounded FMC daemon (T5) you deal ~6 wounds (kill it), against a wraithknight you deal ~5 wounds which is very close to a kill, against a dreadknight or riptide you deal ~5 wounds which probably is a kill as the riptide probably wounded it'self. Ork boyz and the like are amongst the worst targets for a pask punisher. It is a MC, tank, and even flyer killer (w/prescience AV11 and AV12 take ~2 HP and ~30% chance to explode).

**TheSilo**

liquidjoshi wrote:
Ignores the fact the Punisher causes casualties via mass wounds, but recommends the Wyvern for that exact reason.

Nope, not seeing the logic there.

The fact is, Pask can threaten those tanks as well as the infantry. He always has a target. My opponent brings AV 11+ transports for his troops, there's jack all a Wyvern can do now. Gotta rely on the rest of the list for that, and, well, when did you last see a lasgun pop a Rhino?

I bring Pask, I have a threat against everything. Wyverns, sure I can mess up infantry, but then so can literally everything else in my list. Whereas Pask can take the infantry if I need more infantry dead, or he can tackle that Rhino rush, Bloodthirster, Leman Russ... Anything that finds itself in range.

The difference is that Pask in a punisher costs 235 points.

One wyvern costs 65 points. That is the difference.

With the remaining 170 points, you can get a vendetta, which will do a lot more than just glance those AV 11 transports.

**ansacs**

TheSilo wrote:
liquidjoshi wrote:
Ignores the fact the Punisher causes casualties via mass wounds, but recommends the Wyvern for that exact reason.

Nope, not seeing the logic there.

The fact is, Pask can threaten those tanks as well as the infantry. He always has a target. My opponent brings AV 11+ transports for his troops, there's jack all a Wyvern can do now. Gotta rely on the rest of the list for that, and, well, when did you last see a lasgun pop a Rhino?

I bring Pask, I have a threat against everything. Wyverns, sure I can mess up infantry, but then so can literally everything else in my list. Whereas Pask can take the infantry if I need more infantry dead, or he can tackle that Rhino rush, Bloodthirster, Leman Russ... Anything that finds itself in range.

The difference is that Pask in a punisher costs 235 points.

One wyvern costs 65 points. That is the difference.

With the remaining 170 points, you can get a vendetta, which will do a lot more than just glance those AV 11 transports.

Yes a vendetta (44%) has about half the chance to explode an AV11 transport (ignoring glance results) as a pask punisher (79%). So it must be better.

**TheSilo**

ansacs wrote:

You guys really should look at the maths for the pask punisher cannon because it is strikingly obvious you have not and your "figures" are wrong.

Why would you count exclusively on rending hits to kill terminators. With a pask punisher you will average ~4 dead terminators with punisher cannon alone and another 1 terminator with the HBs. That is a heck of a lot more than "2 terminators". Against a standard T6 Sv3+ MC (ie nids) you deal ~6 wounds (ie kill it), against your average grounded FMC daemon (T5) you deal ~6 wounds (kill it), against a wraithknight you deal ~5 wounds which is very close to a kill, against a dreadknight or riptide you deal ~5 wounds which probably is a kill as the riptide probably wounded it'self. Ork boyz and the like are amongst the worst targets for a pask punisher. It is a MC, tank, and even flyer killer (w/prescience AV11 and AV12 take ~2 HP and ~30% chance to explode).

I was trying to use that guy's spreadsheet, but apparently misread. Here's my maths, corrected for PE.

Pask (235 points) v terminators = 4.2 dead terminators total

Gatling cannon = 3.3 dead termies

20 * 2/3 + 20 /6 * 2/3 = 16 hits

16 * 1/6 = 2.7 rending wounds = > 1.8 unsaved wounds (invulnerable save)

16 * 1/2 + 16 / 6 * 1/2 = 9 normal wounds = > 1.5 unsaved wounds.

Heavy bolters (x3) = 0.7 dead termies

9 * 2/3 + 9/6 * 2/3= 7 hits

7 * 2/3 +7/6 * 2/3 = 5.5 wounds = > 0.9 unsaved wounds

**grendel083**

The Vendetta will also only be on the table for about 3 turns at most.
And due to limited mobility, it's idea target may not always be in firing arc.

**TheSilo**

I fail at math. Ignore this post.

**liquidjoshi**

Rending?

**Blacksails**

TheSilo wrote:

Pask will inflict more hull points, but no penetrating hits against AV 11 or better.

Are you remembering his shots rend? That alone will mean that any shots that glance AV11, automatically pen.

Further, Pask re-rolls his armour pen rolls.

**ansacs**

TheSilo wrote:
I was trying to use that guy's spreadsheet, but apparently misread. Here's my maths.

Pask (235 points) v terminators = 3.3 dead terminators total

Gatling cannon = 2.6 dead termies

20 * 2/3 = 13.3 hits

13.3 * 1/6 = 2.2 rending wounds => 1.5 unsaved wounds (invulnerable save)

13.3 * 1/2 = 6.7 normal wounds => 1.1 unsaved wounds.

Heavy bolters (x3) = 0.7 dead termies

9 * 2/3 = 6 hits

6 * 2/3 = 4 wounds => 0.7 unsaved wounds

You forgot PE. It makes a huge difference across 20 shots when you only fail to hit and wound on a 3+.

The spreed sheet is mine (though I made it for myself so it is poorly formatted). I did round it up a bit much for the termies it is 3.33 dead termies without HBs. So ~4 with HBs.

**TheSilo**

Ok, ignore my last maths, I forgot PE, and was assuming rending auto-glances, not the D3. I think this is right. Does PE also re-roll armor pen rolls of 1?

Pask will inflict more hull points, but no penetrating hits against AV 11 or better. He will glance most things to death in one turn. But the vendetta has 48" range, Pask has 24" range (heavy bolters have 36" so you need to factor that into your math. The vendetta has a 50% chance of scoring a penetrating -> explodes result, not sure about the 44% number. Vendetta is 65 points cheaper, and much harder to kill imo. Pask is good, no doubt, but he's soooooooo expensive.

Vendetta - averages 1.9 hull points per turn against AV 11, with 1.5 penetrating hits

3 * 1/2 + 3 * 1/4 = 2.25 hits

2/3 * 2.25 = 1.5 penetrating hits

1/3 * 1.5 penetrating htis = 50% explodes result (AP 2).

1/6 * 2.25 = 0.4 glancing hits.

Paskisher - averages 3.2 hull points, 2.2 penetrating hits

20 * 2/3 + 20 * 1/6 * 2/3 = 16 punisher hits

16 / 6 + 16 /6 /6 = 3.1 penetrating hits

1/6 * 3.1 = 0.5 destroyed results

9 * 2/3 + 6 heavy bolter hits

6 / 6 = 1 glancing hit

**Blacksails**

TheSilo wrote:
Ok, ignore my maths, I forgot PE, and was assuming rending auto-glances, not the D3.

He also re-rolls armour pens too! Just go fishing for 6s!

**ansacs**

Also had forgotten reroll failed armour pens.

BTW PE is a pain to calculate.

Also the reason vendetta's are 44% is that you average 1 and have a 50% chance to get another penetrating hit. Therefore you have a 33% chance to explode with the first hit and a 16.5% chance to explode it if you fail with the first pen. Therefore 66% fail and 83.5% chance to fail after is a 55% chance to fail or a 45% chance to succeed (ie explode, I rounded here so that is the +1%).

**Xerics**

Scipio Africanus wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
Man, you make a thread for every single idea/question you have.

I mean, this one and the one you made 10mins later could pretty much have been the same topic.

Anyways, on topic, I'd go with a Punisher or Vanquisher for Pask, with the Executioner being 3rd.

Shush.

--

Hi Arun,

I wouldn't exploit the way blind is. I also wouldn't play you if you tried to.

Couple things:

It's cool to make a poll, but keep your answers short, and list every option. One of the WORST mistakes people make, here and on places like facebook do is they load their polls - You haven't asked me if I prefer a vanquisher or an punisher, you've asked me if I prefer a vanquisher (your reasoning) or a punisher (your reason), and have not given me all my options. There's no right and wrong here; Pask certainly helps a vanquisher but he also works on a punisher.

What would be better is if you just simply gave EVERY option, leaving it at the variant's name and nothing else.

This also has the added effect of encouraging conversation.

How do you exploit the blind rule? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

**Sir Arun**

I think comparing the Paskisher to a Vendetta + Wyvern combo is too much of an apples to oranges approach.

The Vendetta and Wyvern have entirely different roles and positions on the battlefield than the Paskisher and there are simply too many factors to consider for them to make an honest comparison.

Vendetta arrives later, is more maneuverable, but its guns have a worse arc of sight since they can't fully swivel due to forward facing while a Paskisher can simply point and click its turret mounted Gatling Cannon to delete any unit it wants; on the other hand the Vendetta's Lascannons have twice the range and can carry a small SWS squad, while the Paskisher on the other hand means you dont have to spend extra points on an HQ in your armylist....its too much to say which of the two is a better pick.

**ansacs**

Sir Arun wrote:
I think comparing the Paskisher to a Vendetta + Wyvern combo is too much of an apples to oranges approach.

The Vendetta and Wyvern have entirely different roles and positions on the battlefield than the Paskisher and there are simply too many factors to consider for them to make an honest comparison.

Vendetta arrives later, is more maneuverable, but its guns have a worse arc of sight since they can't fully swivel due to forward facing while a Paskisher can simply point and click its turret mounted Gatling Cannon to delete any unit it wants; on the other hand the Vendetta's Lascannons have twice the range and can carry a small SWS squad, while the Paskisher on the other hand means you dont have to spend extra points on an HQ in your armylist....its too much to say which of the two is a better pick.

I totally agree with that. Both can be good against flyers but they fulfill completely different rolls in your army. They support each other really well though as a combo of wyverns (not necessarily the best infantry killer but rather unbelievably good at removing upgrades and killing GtG scoring units), pask punisher (best applied to MCs and land based vehicles, too slow to clear distant objectives), vendetta (AA and transport for flamer PCS, too expensive to spam enough to deal w/ MCs or vehicle spam), and infantry blobbs (score and keep your stuff safe) are the stereotypical combination that can win tournaments. Not that it is the only said combination but they fulfill the necessary roles.

**Xerics**

Ok so nobody is going to tell me how the Blind rule is exploited? Because im not seeing it.

**Blacksails**

Xerics wrote:
Ok so nobody is going to tell me how the Blind rule is exploited? Because im not seeing it.

You must be blind!

I'm sorry, I couldn't help it.

**Mavnas**

TheSilo wrote:
Tenzilla wrote:
Leave pask at home and save 40 pts.

The Paskisher is just not effective against enemy armor saves. True, you'll get 3 rending hits per turn on average, but even against terminators, you're only going to kill 2 per turn. Compare that with a much cheaper vanilla demolisher, which will kill 55% of the terminators that touch it's pie plate. Against anything with a 4+ or better, I'd rather just have a vanilla Russ, which will 2+ AP3 every infantry in the game, for a fraction of the points. And against anything with a 5+ or worse save, I'd rather have wyverns.

Yes, because 2+ means they will totally pass their saves against the other 12 hits which don't rend. Also, you will take no sponsons or heavy stubber on that tank...

215 actually, given you first buy the Vanquisher chassis, then the tank commander, then the pask upgrade and the mandatory LC. This is around 50 points costlier than most enemy battle tanks but the real value comes from the PE buff granted to his retunie Russes. If Pask kills 2 enemy battle tanks (which he will) he will make more than enough points back. He works best in larger point games.

Assuming the enemy has high value tanks. You could be facing a drop pod army or a bunch of bikers.

I just think that people are overstating how good his crack-shot ability is (which is the only thing that separates him from a regular commander). It's not worth 40 points just to get rending. Against vehicles, an exterminator will already pen or glance everything but AV 14 on a 6. And a punisher's normal shots will mostly be wasted. Seems silly to fish for rending shots against vehicles that you otherwise can't harm.

And he re-rolls armor pen. That's the thing that makes the rending shots actually good as opposed to meh. While he might only rend 3 times against infantry, he will get 5-6 rending hits vs. enemy armored units (assuming you're rolling for 6s).

Have you tried the wyvern?

The wyvern can't turn around and shoot AV11+. They are different units for different purposes. The wyvern also doesn't do well against 2+ saves scattered out in the open. Termies with their large bases should never take more than 2 hits from a single blast, and even then luck would be involved. Against guys that are super spread out you will need all 3 wyverns to put as many wounds on them if you can even get to that many.

Personally, I'd field Pask with melta sponsons and a lascannon. That way, I have 3 more AP 1-2 shots to go with the 2-3 rending and 1-2 dead from normal wounds as well as just make sure that I will murder any vehicle that gets too close. 26 shots is still good enough against most light infantry, and for bigger blobs, there's always the wyvern backup. (Not like you were going to fill all the HS slots with Russes once you've already taken 2 as an HQ.)

**Xerics**

Blacksails wrote:
Xerics wrote:
Ok so nobody is going to tell me how the Blind rule is exploited? Because im not seeing it.

You must be blind!

I'm sorry, I couldn't help it.

Haha... seriously i don't see how you can exploit it... you hit someone with blind and if they fail their initiative test then they suffer the consequences of blindness. I don't see how its exploited...

**rigeld2**

If you hit a unit 7 times with a Blind weapon, how many tests do they take?

**Leth**

Overall the damage output for the punisher pask is going to do more damage. That is pretty straight forward.

The proble with the punisher pask is the range of 24 compared to the vanquisher. If he is your warlord you have to put him in significant harms way to try and get kills. Combined with the russ only moving 6 it is quite easy for an opponent to stay out of his range until they decide to take him out. In addition outside of his squadmate unless the rest of your army is advancing he is going to be alone which means that it is pretty easy to deep strike in behind and get kills that way.

However with vanquisher pask(especially not as your warlord) He can sit back with a lascannon, give him a cheap squad mate and plink off vehicles at range.

Also remember that divination and powers being cast is significantly changing in 11 days so to base a lot of your strategy/build options around that is probably not a good idea.