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 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Isn't the new rumor for snapfire is that you shoot at BS -2?
That would mean that massed heavy weapons/special weapons may just blow them out of the sky, scoring ~twice as many hits as before.

Agreed...aren't most daemons T5?

They'll have to worry more about just straight dying rather than being grounded and then dying.

If T5...look at something like 10 Guardians (a fairly common unit)...this theory will still hold true to T6.

Old rules
20 shots
3.3 hits
1.1 wounds

New Rules
20 shots
6.7 hits
2.2 wounds

Less chance to be grounded yes...but double the number of wounds.

Ignore, wrong thread.

 Dantioch wrote:


So with these changes will the flying circus become even more popular than prieviosly?

Snapshots changing to just -2 BS means that against BS4 armies(most armies) you dont really need skyfire to hit FMC. Shooting at a flyer might half your damage, but then fliers are up there without cover(unless they jink) and are always expensive wounds.

So what if the grounding check isnt as successful and it happens at the end of the shooting phase if you can kill the birds while they still fly.




Also I have a feeling that iron arms is either going away, even if it isnt its gonna be harder to cast. So a T5 prince is T5, as in can be wounded easily by most things in the game.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Isn't the new rumor for snapfire is that you shoot at BS -2?
That would mean that massed heavy weapons/special weapons may just blow them out of the sky, scoring ~twice as many hits as before.

The rumor. personally, I think it's BS. The grounding has been confirmed by WD, but the -2BS has no scans, and no rumor poster with a decent background behind it. I spent 2 hours trying to track it down, but all I could find was random posters saying they heard something. Maybe it's true, but right now it's just a rumor, while the one grounding check limit is a fact. I think that it'll just be BS1 same as before.

It seems like FMC will get a buff in some areas, but hit hard in others:

Pros:
-Only one grounding check at the end of shooting (absurd)
-AP 2 Vectors (absurd)
-Potentially nasty powers via Daemonology
-Ability to target multiple units with Witchfires

Cons:
-Much harder to cast powers (this is being seriously undersold in this thread)
-Far more easily hit do to rumored new snapfire rules (-2 BS)
-Cannot contest troop units (huge...again, being seriously undersold)

What keeps the FMC alive now is a combination of smart movement, 1 Grimiore, and Invisibility. Powers are now much harder to activate, and we still don't know what the other tables look like. Furthermore, it is far easier for opponents to deny key powers. Combine this with the fact that Tzeentch Daemons aren't going to easily cast ML3 Flickering Fire and that the army cannot contest troop units, and I actually think they will have some issues.

How will an army that relies on movement, evasion, picking off key targets, and contesting end game deal with a shifting meta where Troop units cannot be contested? Remember, FMC isn't a particularly "killy" army--it is merely an army that is difficult to kill. We'll see a clearer picture soon though.

 Arbiter wrote:
Can you imagine the seer council with these new rules? I think its to early to speculate but if this is even close to the new rules I feel bad for non competitive players in tournaments,

With there new rules the seer council is officially history.

so the new grounding test is kinda pointless then right? they can get knocked down every turn and get back up and fly on their next turn, or am I wrong? I know the grounding test can cause a wound but I dislike that I'd always have to snapfire against them

It also seems that you are bound to a single VS a turn now, except against flyers where you get D3.
Invisibility no longer grants a 4+ save, but makes other Snapfire at you. Are there any other ways to get the 2++ without the invisibility or is the Screamer star gone?

Spoletta wrote:
It also seems that you are bound to a single VS a turn now, except against flyers where you get D3.
Invisibility no longer grants a 4+ save, but makes other Snapfire at you. Are there any other ways to get the 2++ without the invisibility or is the Screamer star gone?

Screamer star never needed invisibility

I do not think daemons FMC armies will be any better, in fact I think it will be much worse, for these reasons:

1. Casting powers after movement: this seriously kills FMC. When casting before movement it gave you the opportunity to know where to place your FMCs on whether or not they got their powers up or not.

2. Casting powers is MUCH harder: You are going to want to throw 3 warp charge at a 1 warp charge power to get a good chance of it going off. That means a LoC that could previously comfortably cast 3 powers a turn will probably only be able to get 1 off now. This is probably the single worst nerf to them.

3. Snapfire is much better (IF this is true): You never had to ground daemons to kill them. If snapfire is really just -2 BS than FMCs will never be safe in the air. There's a reason terrestrial daemon MCs are crap.


These are issues that non-FMC players just won't understand.

If the BS-2 rumor is true then the Tesseract Vault (BS5) and Transcended C'tan (BS6) just became awesome at focused anti-air shooting with their 48" S8 AP3 Assault 6d6 power- a Vault would be hitting with 3d6 shots on average and the C'tan with 4d6, and with S8 AP3 against most Flyers that's just about guaranteed to kill (and they'd still have one power extra to kill stuff on the ground with).

Spamming pink horrors will give a ton of extra warp charge for casting.

But yea if the snapfire rules are as this thread indicates (-2) then FMC daemons is going to be hard to play. Nurgle circus might be okay but also everything being scoring will be interesting. My guo might get some more use!

Hopefully we'll see daemons still being strong in the competitive scene but with balanced lists. Maybe beasts of nurgle will be good scoring units or something.

Latest updates state snapfire is still BS1

Then feth the FMC haters!

Flying summoners summoning Heralds of Slaanesh with Chariots is goingto be hilllllllllllllllllllarrrrious.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Isn't the new rumor for snapfire is that you shoot at BS -2?
That would mean that massed heavy weapons/special weapons may just blow them out of the sky, scoring ~twice as many hits as before.

Rumor was debunked

Sorry to Hijack but does anyone know the size difference between some of the older metal Fantasy Daemon Prince models and obviously the bigger Plastic and Metal Models still out now? Ebay always has them for grabs.... Must Smash Things!

The are skinner as in denser but less wide/tall (for obvious reasons). I really think they look ugly but if you dont think so size wise they are comparable

@Thread. Daemons will probably have the most ML levels in total for any army. Whether or not they are viable is gonna be completely dependent on the psychic changes and whether or not the maelific/daemonic powers are powerful since daemons get a boost (no perils on doubles of all kinds) when casting them compared to other armies i guess.

Good news for FMC

Snap shots are still BS1

Only 1 ground test per turn at the end of shooting

Bad news for FMC

They can't charge in the same turn they land unless they are grounded.

Fateweaver won't care, but every FMC that is CC focused just got a kick in the teeth.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Good news for FMC

Snap shots are still BS1

Only 1 ground test per turn at the end of shooting

Bad news for FMC

They can't charge in the same turn they land unless they are grounded.

Fateweaver won't care, but every FMC that is CC focused just got a kick in the teeth.

Vector strike was changed from D3+1 ignores cover hits at S: User and AP3 to 1 ignores cover hit at S: User AP2, except against fliers who get hit d3 times.

Smash was also massively nerfed (same, but instead of halving your attacks, you get reduced to one attack) which massively hurts close combat monstrous creatures who weren't already in the S8-S10 bracket.

You may not want to assault with FMCs anymore.

Most don't have the weight of attacks to make non-elite infantry a particularly ideal target, attacking other monstrous creatures is always a gamble, and now vehicles are substantially less bothered by monstrous creatures in assault.

And having to wait a turn before charging means your daemon prince or harpy is standing there picking it's nose after descending to glide for a Dreadnought to come in and punch it at S10 and instagib it while being all but impenetrable to the FMC in turn.

If snap fire is still BS1 but MC assaults, vector strikes and smash attacks got nerfed then my Tesseract Vault won't be quite the anti-air platform I thought it would be, but un turn the Tyranid flying circus won't be quite the instawin it used to be against it or any other vehicle-centric build for that matter).

So overall an improvement for me.

I think we will see the return of ground tyrants or primes/tervigons leading nids. Deamons will keep fateweaver flying circus will have seroius problems.

I'm going to call it now. GUO with T10 from iron arm or 4+ FNP is the new black.

 schadenfreude wrote:
I think we will see the return of ground tyrants or primes/tervigons leading nids. Deamons will keep fateweaver flying circus will have seroius problems.

I'm going to call it now. GUO with T10 from iron arm or 4+ FNP is the new black.

Ground Tyrants don't have armored shell or Biomancy (just that one, single, solitary table with nothing especially amazing) to protect them and need an expensive brood of 3 Tyrant guard to survive. The new smash rules also tremendously increase the vulnerability of the walkrant to vehicles (you absolutely need crushing claw guards to save your bacon now), and you had better hope you have catalyst and a venomthrope if you want to survive.

The hurtiest Walkrant build would be a Walkrant with regeneration, acid blood, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, the Ymgarl factor, the Reaper of Obliterax, a thorax swarm, and other bells and whistles; hopefully with Paroxysm and Catalyst.

So WS8, BS4, S7 or 8, T6, W4, A4(5 or 6), I something decent, 3-2+ armor, FNP (if you get it to cast), 4+ IWND, and might just hurt something if it bleeds. It also gets instant death every now and them and shadow in the warp as well as furious charge, fleet, and rerolls to wound if it's target is T7 or lower. Preferably on a Tyrant node so you can get some free extra synapse. Maybe you're really lucky and got mind eater on it so you can get VPs for killing things.

Sounds decent right?

Well all that and the Tyrant guard runs for a hideously expensive price, relies on you rolling those powers in the first place (or rolling them from someone else) and the psychic goodies are unreliable at best.

Meanwhile, you have no eternal warrior so enjoy getting instant deathed by the first Grey knight to get a good smack with a Daemonhammer, a Librarian with Iron arm, lose the entire unit from across the board to Beasthunter shells, get Doomfisted by a Dreadknight, simply avoided because you're still walking everywhere; fleet or no fleet, grav gunned to death because the best durability vs AP2 shooting you can hope for is shrouded (assuming your enemy isn't dumb and doesn't just kill the venomthrope first) with FNP and maybe regeneration assuming you survive, or get shot up with poison because to massed poison, you and your guard are just overpriced terminators/marines with FNP and a cover save (that can be stripped by nuking the venomthrope).

A wrecker node kitted out for maximum melee hurt (for both the warriors and carnifexes) is also hurty in melee, but also runs into many of the same pitfalls. not to mention that warriors are an especially squishy source of synapse and any psychic buffs you'll get will have to come from outside the formation.

Meanwhile space marines can just run the no-brainer unit of Ironfather smashfether paired with the optional extra Codex marines Chapter master Smashbane running in a grav-star unit, which is devastating in shooting and assault, much faster, has fewer weaknesses, and leaves much less to chance.

The days of the Tyranids being top tier in melee died with the Swarmstar.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Good news for FMC

Snap shots are still BS1

Only 1 ground test per turn at the end of shooting

Bad news for FMC

They can't charge in the same turn they land unless they are grounded.

Fateweaver won't care, but every FMC that is CC focused just got a kick in the teeth.

not being able to charge right away is terrible and overall i think the only FMC's daemons have left that are worth it are fateweaver and be'lakor. Be'lakor could also just put invisibility on himself
to stay safe for that turn while waiting to get into CC, but i can imagine a lot of other units that would get more use out of that spell.

Also I guess Slaanesh Lash princes are still good since i never really assaulted with them anyway

 Kain wrote:


Meanwhile, you have no eternal warrior so enjoy getting instant deathed by the first Grey knight to get a good smack with a Daemonhammer, a Librarian with Iron arm, lose the entire unit from across the board to Beasthunter shells, get Doomfisted by a Dreadknight, simply avoided because you're still walking everywhere; fleet or no fleet, grav gunned to death because the best durability vs AP2 shooting you can hope for is shrouded (assuming your enemy isn't dumb and doesn't just kill the venomthrope first) with FNP and maybe regeneration assuming you survive, or get shot up with poison because to massed poison, you and your guard are just overpriced terminators/marines with FNP and a cover save (that can be stripped by nuking the venomthrope).

I just wanted to point out that the Tau have none of the cheese you listed above.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Kain wrote:


Meanwhile, you have no eternal warrior so enjoy getting instant deathed by the first Grey knight to get a good smack with a Daemonhammer, a Librarian with Iron arm, lose the entire unit from across the board to Beasthunter shells, get Doomfisted by a Dreadknight, simply avoided because you're still walking everywhere; fleet or no fleet, grav gunned to death because the best durability vs AP2 shooting you can hope for is shrouded (assuming your enemy isn't dumb and doesn't just kill the venomthrope first) with FNP and maybe regeneration assuming you survive, or get shot up with poison because to massed poison, you and your guard are just overpriced terminators/marines with FNP and a cover save (that can be stripped by nuking the venomthrope).

I just wanted to point out that the Tau have none of the cheese you listed above.

No instead you have enough AP4 or better shots to render my warriors useless and sufficient overwatch to ensure that I will never get to assault with anything more than a half dead fraction of my army, likely to be bogged down in a pile of kroot.

But that's okay, because GeeDubs wants to make it so that you'll never get to assault with anything that can't fly across the board and doesn't have stupid good resiliency per point.

akwing00 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Good news for FMC

Snap shots are still BS1

Only 1 ground test per turn at the end of shooting

Bad news for FMC

They can't charge in the same turn they land unless they are grounded.

Fateweaver won't care, but every FMC that is CC focused just got a kick in the teeth.

not being able to charge right away is terrible and overall i think the only FMC's daemons have left that are worth it are fateweaver and be'lakor. Be'lakor could also just put invisibility on himself
to stay safe for that turn while waiting to get into CC, but i can imagine a lot of other units that would get more use out of that spell.

Also I guess Slaanesh Lash princes are still good since i never really assaulted with them anyway

Completely agree with all of that, especially the slaanesh lash princes, they've always been a favourite of mine, plus with the new psychic system you can throw out spells with impunity in the psychic phase and still use vector strike and the lash for your two shooting attacks.

Definitely don't see the bloodthirster ever seeing the table again this edition though, just not worth wasting invis on it for a turn just to try and force what was already not a great unit compared to other choices into combat.

I don't have the book on me right now, but does anyone know if FMC's get jink while in gliding mode now? Nurgle prince with shrouding might not have to get airborne to be pretty durable especially if he has 3 rolls to get either endurance or iron arm. Just a thought.

Jink has changed, but yes, they do get it.

You now have to declare using jink before any to hit rolls are made against your model at which point you now fire snap shots on your next turn.

Daemon Princes of Slaanesh rejoice! They never assaulted anyways. Now they can just fly around all game and hit people with Lash + Biomancy. Factor in the extensive amount of other summonings you'll most likely be doing and BAM! You got yourself a few extra Bloodthirsters here and there, Pink Horrors and Heralds!


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Not to mention Iron Arm is a guaranteed +3 S/T now which is fantastic