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So a lot of the rule changes have already been leaked or seen in WD and so far it seems to me like the flying circus is getting quite a bit of boons.
Firstly, and probably most importantly, you can now only ever take a single grounding test per shooting phase no matter how many different hits you took so unless the odds of staying in the air changed those daemon princes are going to stay in the air for a long time and with Kairos' re-roll he'll probably never come down.
Secondly, with the neww psychic phase the army gets two big boons, the first is that with daemonology it will be much easier to get scoring units via summoning as well as more pink horrors to generate warp charges. The second change in the psychic phase is the witchfires no longer counts as shooting weapons so you can use as many as you want and each power at a different target increasing the leathality of these powers and allowing players to pick suitable targets for each power, ie flickering fire at infantry and bolt of tzeentch at a tank. Furtermore using witchfires in the psychic phase doesn't prevent you from taking action in shooting phase allowing you to run 2D6 and getting behind LOS blocking terrain.
Last, Strenght D weapons will now only ignore invulnerable saves on a D-table roll of 6 making knights easier to take down in close combat hopefully without having to sacrifice a daemon prince to achieve it.

So with these changes will the flying circus become even more popular than prieviosly?

Well, i hope they make something about it. Otherwise, they'll have to make a huge point increase to bring THIS in line. FMC spam is allready super effective and quite annoying to play against. Basically, all my games against FMC spam last 1 turn. I either ground something and have a chance of doing something significant - be it better shooting damage/charge - or plain loose. Yep, that's like titan games in 6 ed. They last for 1-2 turns max and are decided by who goes first and blasts the enemie's titan away. A few dice rolls and no tactics whatsoever.

The idea of a a Tzeench circus summoning dozens of horrors per turn really does a good job of summing up this game for me at this point.

I'd not go desperate yet =)
Just goes in for the ban list for me. Along with 2++ rerollable stars. Good news is that new rules will most likely eradicate 2++ rerollable stars.

Noone forces you to play against such stuff. GW even makes a note to: "Talk to your opponent before a game not to face FMC spam with your fun fluffy army".

Eh, having to negotiate with your opponent pre-game like that has gotten incredibly fething old.

Playing non-GW games has spoiled me, I guess.

 Dantioch wrote:
So a lot of the rule changes have already been leaked or seen in WD and so far it seems to me like the flying circus is getting quite a bit of boons.
Firstly, and probably most importantly, you can now only ever take a single grounding test per shooting phase no matter how many different hits you took so unless the odds of staying in the air changed those daemon princes are going to stay in the air for a long time and with Kairos' re-roll he'll probably never come down.
Secondly, with the neww psychic phase the army gets two big boons, the first is that with daemonology it will be much easier to get scoring units via summoning as well as more pink horrors to generate warp charges. The second change in the psychic phase is the witchfires no longer counts as shooting weapons so you can use as many as you want and each power at a different target increasing the leathality of these powers and allowing players to pick suitable targets for each power, ie flickering fire at infantry and bolt of tzeentch at a tank. Furtermore using witchfires in the psychic phase doesn't prevent you from taking action in shooting phase allowing you to run 2D6 and getting behind LOS blocking terrain.
Last, Strenght D weapons will now only ignore invulnerable saves on a D-table roll of 6 making knights easier to take down in close combat hopefully without having to sacrifice a daemon prince to achieve it.

So with these changes will the flying circus become even more popular than prieviosly?

1. For sure a nice bonus to grounding checks, I like this way better it seems more natural.
2. Im pretty sure that summoned units are never scoring? or at least someone said that was the case in the current rule book?
3. Agree with everything else

On a side note phsycic powers are a lot harder to cast, more fickle and the opponent has a chance to deny all the really critical ones which they never got before. Not sure if this evens out at the end of the day or what?

Tyranid flying circuses beat Daemon flying circuses don'tcha know.

delete

bodazoka wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
So a lot of the rule changes have already been leaked or seen in WD and so far it seems to me like the flying circus is getting quite a bit of boons.
Firstly, and probably most importantly, you can now only ever take a single grounding test per shooting phase no matter how many different hits you took so unless the odds of staying in the air changed those daemon princes are going to stay in the air for a long time and with Kairos' re-roll he'll probably never come down.
Secondly, with the neww psychic phase the army gets two big boons, the first is that with daemonology it will be much easier to get scoring units via summoning as well as more pink horrors to generate warp charges. The second change in the psychic phase is the witchfires no longer counts as shooting weapons so you can use as many as you want and each power at a different target increasing the leathality of these powers and allowing players to pick suitable targets for each power, ie flickering fire at infantry and bolt of tzeentch at a tank. Furtermore using witchfires in the psychic phase doesn't prevent you from taking action in shooting phase allowing you to run 2D6 and getting behind LOS blocking terrain.
Last, Strenght D weapons will now only ignore invulnerable saves on a D-table roll of 6 making knights easier to take down in close combat hopefully without having to sacrifice a daemon prince to achieve it.

So with these changes will the flying circus become even more popular than prieviosly?

1. For sure a nice bonus to grounding checks, I like this way better it seems more natural.
2. Im pretty sure that summoned units are never scoring? or at least someone said that was the case in the current rule book?
3. Agree with everything else

On a side note phsycic powers are a lot harder to cast, more fickle and the opponent has a chance to deny all the really critical ones which they never got before. Not sure if this evens out at the end of the day or what?

On the second point that conjured units you are correct, at least in this edition, and I don't hink they would suddenly change that. However summoning pink horrors is still beneficial since they can increase your warp charge pool.

The only change I've heard about with an adverse effect to fliers is that snap shots are going to be changed and that it will get a harder to manifest psychic powers. But compared to higher survivability and better damage output it's not much of a loss.

Conjured units can't score in 6th ed, that rule may carry over.

Knights are still s10 so they can ID a T5 prince without iron arm, but at least they get an invo now.

With invuls vs S: D weapons, i'd say that a Tzeench Daemon prince has way better chances of killing a knight than a knight killing a daemon prince if he's buffed with a 3++.

 koooaei wrote:
With invuls vs S: D weapons, i'd say that a Tzeench Daemon prince has way better chances of killing a knight than a knight killing a daemon prince if he's buffed with a 3++.

It would take a while and it's risky. The knight needs 1 wound to get past the 3+ reroll 1s. The DP needs to strip 6hp and the new vehicle chart only explodes for d3hp on a 7+. The other factor is the combat is going for at least 2 rounds and exposes the dp to a counter charge.

There's a huge difference between risky now and suicidal previously.

Any information on ignoring Eternal Warrior with s: D?

The invul might still fail, a 6 to "wound" with the D is still pretty much instant-death even without being an actual instant death attack given its a ton on wounds without any saves. (the attack wont cause instant death though, its SD not S10, even though the knight is S10. the HOW hit is S10.)

And even without failing, the demon prince has a low chance to do any damage to the knight, with front 13 and 4+ invul. the knight however, lands several wounds every swing. some of them are bound to go through.

A demon prince will still fall to a knight, just less absurdly so.

Iirc, invul is only vs ranged attacks. Daemon prince with a daemonic weapon can pretty much smash the hell out of a knight. 3+ to hit, 3 to glance, 4+ to pen. He'll need 2 phases to do it statistically though. Which is now quite likely. I'd say he has >50% to beat a knight.

I stand corrected, knight get invul only against shooting (would be nice to know that before, it would mean my FW would have killed that knight that charged them XD, was probably honest mistake, the dude was new to knights and we needed to check rules every 10 minutes)


Back to DP vs knight:
3+ to hit and 4+ for damage (ignore exploding, highly unlikely) means only about 2 HP per turn, isn't it?
5 attacks is nice, but you are not going to get all through

Remember that if you're smashing you get to re-roll failed attempts to clance or penetrate so about 3 hull points per turn while the daemon prince only take one hit per round back.

Knight's front 13 means 3 to glance, 4+ to pen. Ap 2 means some better chances to explode but let's not count on it since we count on a knight not rolling 6 to wound either.

It's not 5 attacks. Daemonic weapons are +d6. If you smash, you get 3+1 (for charging)+d6 Means 5-10 attacks. Pretty enough to reliably glance down a knight in 2 turns.

Yep and i forgot bout rerolls.

With rerolls you have 75% chance to pen and around 10% to glance.

Previously, a knight basically needed to hit on a 5+ and than it's an almost guaranteed death to a DP on a 2+. Now, i'd say that it's more in favor of a DP. But that's only if he's buffed. Which does not alwayz happen.

Looks like the odds favor the knight going down in round 2 or 3 with round 1 or 4 being very unlikely.

Round 2 is going to be the big deal and then it will depend if the knight player has something he can throw into cc with the dp.

I've only seen some rumoured rules for the psychic phase, so I will comment about them alone.

I'm not sure if it will be a total buff for flying circus'. It depends on where the psychic phase will be.
At the moment, you must do your buffs before you move, this means that you can get that invisibility you need before you expose your DP, if you don't get it then you hide or fly off the table.

If the psychic phase is moved to after moving, then the flying circus will gain added mobility, in terms of moving 24 and then buffing something previously out of range, but they will have less security as they must commit to a move before they know they will be protected.

Another negative is that (and this is a rumour) that buffs might be deniable. If so then DPs will have less chance at getting that all important Iron arm off.

Time will tell.

Its also too early to know the changed to FMCs that will have a heavy effect there.

For example, it seems grounding gets harder, and only happens in the END of the shooting phase, but if that's true; I'd think there is another side. what if a grounded target cannot fly again during the game for example?


Too many rules that we are not aware of influence the list, even the simple "demon" rule.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Its also too early to know the changed to FMCs that will have a heavy effect there.

For example, it seems grounding gets harder, and only happens in the END of the shooting phase, but if that's true; I'd think there is another side. what if a grounded target cannot fly again during the game for example?


Too many rules that we are not aware of influence the list, even the simple "demon" rule.

I don't share your faith in GW's competence.

Haven't claimed for their competence, but proper balance can even happen completely accidentally

 BoomWolf wrote:
Haven't claimed for their competence, but proper balance can even happen completely accidentally

A team of neanderthals who suffered particularly brutal lobotomies has more brainpower and hold more skill in game design in one cell than GW's entire design team.

They'd also smell better.

If its true that snapshots are just -2 BS and assuming you still snap shot from ground to air, it will not be as hard to just shoot them while they are flying. Previously you just shot at them to ground them but that will be much harder now. Don't be surprised when you start seeing more lascannons and such hitting your DP's in the air. Even more so if prescience is still easily accessed by imperials.

Won't it? I'm tau, its the same for me XD

Also, maybe something else got nerfed in them SO much they will be unbalanced to the other side

Flying Lords of Change summoning Daemons etc.. is going to be interesting.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

I'm not sure if it will be a total buff for flying circus'. It depends on where the psychic phase will be.
At the moment, you must do your buffs before you move, this means that you can get that invisibility you need before you expose your DP, if you don't get it then you hide or fly off the table.

If the psychic phase is moved to after moving, then the flying circus will gain added mobility, in terms of moving 24 and then buffing something previously out of range, but they will have less security as they must commit to a move before they know they will be protected.
Time will tell.

However now that they have a distinct phase you can run the in the shooting phase to get back into cover while still getting better ranged to the blessings due to the added mobility before they are used.

Can you imagine the seer council with these new rules? I think its to early to speculate but if this is even close to the new rules I feel bad for non competitive players in tournaments,

Isn't the new rumor for snapfire is that you shoot at BS -2?
That would mean that massed heavy weapons/special weapons may just blow them out of the sky, scoring ~twice as many hits as before.