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 Kain wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 XdeadpoolX wrote:
Gk easily. With the battle brothers ally matrix. Meaning everything they lack you can throw some leman russ in there and buff them with your gk lib. Not to mention having so many psykers you got unlimited dice. And your close combat Halberd insta kill hit first beat sticks.TThey may have lost draigowing forever but they gained so so much more than paladins now everything becomes more viable. Even at a higher cost.

Space wolves got their anti air in the form of ally matrix fliers. It's gonna be crazy

For the emprah!!!

Brotherhood of psykers says otherwise, the unit counts as ML1 not per model.

Daemons on the other hand get their troops for cheaper and are ML1-3 depending on squad size

Depending on how combat squads work, you could very well get 12 power dice from your troops alone.

Nevermind the other units who are all psykers as well.

just remember that there is no limit to "foc" slots anymore in a BF/BOUND list, unbound is even worse. as long as you can put min 1HQ 2Troops in the chart your good.

and yes CS could work well, but whats the cost of a troops unit in GK? daemons is pretty cheep can they take 2 for the price of 1? and daemons get a herald at next to no points as the HQ.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

Daemons on the other hand get their troops for cheaper and are ML1-3 depending on squad size

Horrors WC's go up with size, not ML. So we'll have to wait and see how they work this with the new system.

Can we honestly say that armies by faction still exist at all?

 dracpanzer wrote:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

Daemons on the other hand get their troops for cheaper and are ML1-3 depending on squad size

Horrors WC's go up with size, not ML. So we'll have to wait and see how they work this with the new system.

thats true,

wonder who is going to do the math to see who can get the most bang for buck ML dice

I voted Orks just because they are comming out shortly after, so hopefully they were designed with the new books as reference... Or probably not

Demon's in my opinion

Well marines won't have to waste points in tactical squads, which is a relief considering how mediocre they are.

In regards to Tau, I want you to think about this.

They will be able to deploy t4 w2 2+ models in the back field to claim objectives that have weapons able to support the squads of Firewarriors in Devilfish that Jink at a 3+ and automatically win when they contest an objective.

If you haven't heard of Fish of Fury before, you will tremble at its mention until the next edition comes out.

Also, I think Banshees and Scorpians being able to board open topped Dark Eldar transports is a pretty good Boost for Eldar.

Daemons, without question. Now that nearly every other army can take them, I expect to see them buffed considerably in order to sell plenty of daemon models.

Necrons got a lot of good things out of the edition.

Unbound and multiple detachment shenanigans lets them take more of the things they want, their psychic defence got a bit better, their vehicles are even better than before with few of the skimmer nerfs being all that bad for the ones most people were using anyway, most of the mechanics they relied on before are still working in good order, and their biggest worry (monstrous creatures) are now far less threatening to their vehicles. And the new scoring rules give them an even greater leg up in the objective taking game.

In addition, as most good Necron anti-vehicle weapons were either already good AP or relied on hull point stripping, the new vehicle damage table doesn't really hamper their vehicle cracking capability. Spyder-star took a pretty big hit, but three smashing Spyders and a D-lord with a Warscythe should still tear open most vehicles like soda cans.

The units that were bad beforehand (Lychguard, Praetorians, Flayed ones) are still bad and the Forge world MCs are a bit saddened by the monstrous creature nerfs (though if you had a Canoptek sentinel in assault you deserved to lose, two attacks on a 200+ point model kind of suggests that it has no business being in melee) but a lot of the units that are good got better or were left unmolested.

The Transcendant C'tan still remains a barrel full of cheese however. The D-Weapon nerfs don't hurt them that badly (and if they roll a six that unit they hit is gone, period) and make them more resilient against other D-weapon fire.

The Necrons are still going strong and sit comfortably in either the top rung of mid-tier or the low run of top tier depend on who you ask.

That's funny. Daemons got the most votes. But their flying circus is dead.

Just a speculative thread.

 wuestenfux wrote:
That's funny. Daemons got the most votes. But their flying circus is dead.

Just a speculative thread.

Slaanesh Daemons just keep on using the lash as they always have. The rules do nothing to lower the power of 2d6 rending hits and hardly anyone ever landed Slaanesh daemons anyway. The main hit is to vector striking but I can't really see them giving a damn.

Tzeentch still has his psychic shooting attacks, though I expect flickering fire will fall out of use in favor of the other powers which remain effective with only one warp charge put into them, so you can safely use a small number of dice.

Nurgle's probably going to be ground pounding.

Khorne has been consistently the worst choice in each edition the Daemons have been a part of following 3e and has only gotten worse as melee gets worse each edition, specifically because of his lack of contribution to the psyker game or any shooting worth a damn. So I expect Khorne to remain a terrible choice.

Psyker heavy armies might indeed profit strongly form the new rules set (Grey Knighs and Daemons). At the very least, those are the ones experiencing the biggest change; we'll see if it is for better or worse.

Vehicle heavy armies also got better: They profit from vehicles being scoring, being more durable against being one-shoted and MCs being worse also helps them. Iron Hands especially profit, as IWND got more useful thanks to the new damage chart.

I don't think we can talk about "armies" any more. The Allies and Faction rules mean that Imperials in particular can mix and match nearly anything they want from all their different codexes.

The meta will change, of course, but that much flexibility means Imperial forces are likely to be able to pick the best units for the new meta but I would not identify one particular codex.

 wuestenfux wrote:
That's funny. Daemons got the most votes. But their flying circus is dead.

Just a speculative thread.

Yeah, because I saw the malefic powers before voting. With Fatey, 4 ML3 heralds, a couple ML3 flying tzeentch princes, and a bunch of horrors, you're sitting comfy at around 30 psychic dice every turn, which means you can reliably summon FOURTY daemons per round, not counting a portalglyph. I'm sure the strategy will change based on the opponent, but the best general move will probably be turn 1, more pink horrors, turn 2, daemonettes, turn 3, more daemonettes against xenos or guard, or bloodletters against marines/power armor. Turn 4, start sacrificing to summon GUO's or other big monsters of choice, based on situation, and bring the hammer down on units that are held up by your horde of 120 daemons that you didn't have to pay points for. Alternatively, start casting the stacking invuln save bubbles. Turn 5, continue the turn 4 attitude and annihilate things until the game ends.

Icing on top: Any other army using psykers is doomed to have all their powers denied every turn, unless their army ALSO reaches absurd levels of psychic dice, such as grey knights, awkwardly enough.

It seems really broken and OP, however I doubt many people have the models to run it. If they do, they can get their butler to help them carry in their sorted cases of spare daemons from their golden limo parked outside.

While it does seem cheesy, I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to see this army in a mirror match. Both players fretting over what to summon and where, how many dice to throw, the opponent deciding when he should attempt to deny with some of his 30+ denial dice... I want many video batreps of summon spam daemons vs summon spam daemons in the near future.

 Kain wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
That's funny. Daemons got the most votes. But their flying circus is dead.

Just a speculative thread.

Slaanesh Daemons just keep on using the lash as they always have. The rules do nothing to lower the power of 2d6 rending hits and hardly anyone ever landed Slaanesh daemons anyway.

Just saying, the lash isn't rending

But, yeah, Daemons and GK, if the information we have so far is everything (which it won't be), get a lot.
Non-Slaanesh/Tz Daemons lose a lot, too, thanks to the changes to Smash and FMC (Slaanesh isn't effected as much thanks to rending CC attacks)

Gotta be a tie between the IOM or Chaos Daemons

All the game stores near me say they won't use unbound. I don't think many will play unbound.

Vehicles needed the boost I don't mind the 7+. Maybe they won't be death traps now.

I think the new grounding rules will really help a Hive Tyrants, Harpies, and Crones. I see shooting Nids w/ FMCs doing very well. Esp if they can ally with themselves. It is cheaper to take 1 Terv HQ and 20 gants then 1 Terv Troop and 30 gants and the 1st option will let you take more flying units. That won't stop you from take more Tyrants either.

I like that all units can score just making troops a trump to other FOC slots. I hope vehicles can't score but if they can and the GK vehicles count as psykers I see the GKs doing really well. May see the old razor spam again.

GK DKs were good already and they will also add dice. Before it meant almost zero they were psykers.

 Kain wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
That's funny. Daemons got the most votes. But their flying circus is dead.

Just a speculative thread.

Khorne has been consistently the worst choice in each edition the Daemons have been a part of following 3e and has only gotten worse as melee gets worse each edition, specifically because of his lack of contribution to the psyker game or any shooting worth a damn. So I expect Khorne to remain a terrible choice.

Indeed, if only Bloodletters had a option to swap that power sword for a bolter equivalent and take advantage of that BS5.
I mean give it some fancy name with the word "Skull" or "Brass" and they're sorted.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

Indeed, if only Bloodletters had a option to swap that power sword for a bolter equivalent and take advantage of that BS5.
I mean give it some fancy name with the word "Skull" or "Brass" and they're sorted.

I'm sure when you have a few squads of them show up every turn in front of a massive blob of tzeentch psykers, they could probably make some stuff happen.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
That's funny. Daemons got the most votes. But their flying circus is dead.

Just a speculative thread.

Khorne has been consistently the worst choice in each edition the Daemons have been a part of following 3e and has only gotten worse as melee gets worse each edition, specifically because of his lack of contribution to the psyker game or any shooting worth a damn. So I expect Khorne to remain a terrible choice.

Indeed, if only Bloodletters had a option to swap that power sword for a bolter equivalent and take advantage of that BS5.
I mean give it some fancy name with the word "Skull" or "Brass" and they're sorted.

You'd think that some of them would try picking up some guns from the cultist they're summoned by to make use of them.

There's more to war, hatred, bloodshed, and anger than just melee combat.

And that being said, i always found Khorne not allowing psykers/magic to be rather...well...dumb.

A psyker or mage can be every bit as hateful, wrathful, bloodthirsty, and warmongering as anyone else. They certainly wouldn't be throwing around illusions, weakening their foes (a foe should be fought at his best, for slaughter of the unworthy or defenceless is dishonorable), or anything like that but rather strengthening themselves and their allies, dispelling maladies, and using the strength of their mind and souls to burn their foes.

Yes it'd be a retcon, but it'd help Khorne actually be good and put a lot of fridge logic to rest.

 djphranq wrote:
Squats!

I couldn't agree more! I'm bringing my Squat army to the 40 hours of 40K at Maplewood Hobby this weekend.