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 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
The picture is a synopsis of the entire Phase.

The Sky Is Not Falling. (or it isn't due to this)

I think it shows how important it is never to take a rule in 40k out of context. So when rumours start popping up, instead of taking them at face value, its generally better to wait for more context.

To me that is the meaning of why the gods granted us such a thread.

If there ends up a rule for MC to fire two weapons a turn, it will make sense what they meant

There is indeed rules for MC's to fire two weapons still.

Just a quick question with that #7 step is it stating that you can't fire more than two types of weapon from a unit? Because it says to repeat steps 3 - 6, but it doesn't say to repeat step seven which is when your allowed to choose a new weapon type to fire.

Its just a summary not the actual rule on how to shoot. It means nothing but a quick reference.

So assume shooting phase is as you'd expect.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If there ends up a rule for MC to fire two weapons a turn, it will make sense what they meant

Very true, and probably helps make more sense for MCs with 2 different weapons.

GW streamlining? what is this heresy?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If there ends up a rule for MC to fire two weapons a turn, it will make sense what they meant

Everyone does understand that this is a change to the way UNITS shoot, not models, correct?

So yes, it would apply to MCs that have two or more different types of weapons, but it also applies to your bog standard infantry squads now.

Before in 6th edition, if you had tac marines with bolters, one guy with a flamer and one guy with a ML, you'd roll 'to hit' with all those together, roll 'to wound' with all of them together and then you'd form 'wound pools', which you'd work through allocating and resolving.

Now in 7th edition, GW clearly thinks that 'wound pools' were too complex a concept and have sought to simplify the process at the price of making the process of shooting take even longer than before. Now with that same tac squad, you have to fire one type of weapon first (rolling to hit with that weapon, rolling to wound with that weapon and resolving wounds for that weapon), then you have to go back to another type of weapon in the squad and do it all again.

So instead of rolling all of a squad's 'to hit' dice together, you're now rolling all the bolter shots 'to hit', all the bolter shots 'to wound', resolving those wounds, then going back and rolling 'to hit' for the ML, rolling 'to wound' for the ML and so on and so forth.


It is a terrible unnecessary changed IMHO that will make the game take even longer than it already did in 6th edition. Hopefully there are rules for 'fast shooting' that basically allow people to handle shooting like it was in 6th edition at least, or veteran players ignore this rule and just keep playing it the same way as 6th. Because it is just a stupid and pointless change IMHO.

 yakface wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If there ends up a rule for MC to fire two weapons a turn, it will make sense what they meant

Everyone does understand that this is a change to the way UNITS shoot, not models, correct?

So yes, it would apply to MCs that have two or more different types of weapons, but it also applies to your bog standard infantry squads now.

Before in 6th edition, if you had tac marines with bolters, one guy with a flamer and one guy with a ML, you'd roll 'to hit' with all those together, roll 'to wound' with all of them together and then you'd form 'wound pools', which you'd work through allocating and resolving.

Now in 7th edition, GW clearly thinks that 'wound pools' were too complex a concept and have sought to simplify the process at the price of making the process of shooting take even longer than before. Now with that same tac squad, you have to fire one type of weapon first (rolling to hit with that weapon, rolling to wound with that weapon and resolving wounds for that weapon), then you have to go back to another type of weapon in the squad and do it all again.

So instead of rolling all of a squad's 'to hit' dice together, you're now rolling all the bolter shots 'to hit', all the bolter shots 'to wound', resolving those wounds, then going back and rolling 'to hit' for the ML, rolling 'to wound' for the ML and so on and so forth.


It is a terrible unnecessary changed IMHO that will make the game take even longer than it already did in 6th edition. Hopefully there are rules for 'fast shooting' that basically allow people to handle shooting like it was in 6th edition at least, or veteran players ignore this rule and just keep playing it the same way as 6th. Because it is just a stupid and pointless change IMHO.

After talking to some of the guys in my local gaming group the idea they came up with is to roll it all at once like previous editions and then allocate wounds in order of weapons. So if you can kill a handful of guys with a flamer first and then shoot the guys further out of range with your bolters and ML's then they will allocate wounds in that order. So it will be streamlined but still sorta stick to the current rules.

Let's be honest, are any of us veteran players going to change the way we've been rolling? I doubt the majority will, and I know I won't.

Ill roll the same as always. Unless the weapon is super important or special its multi coloured dice.

Wait could you fire both weapons on a combi weapon, and how about heavy weapon teams they also have lasguns?

 lilgammer123 wrote:
Wait could you fire both weapons on a combi weapon, and how about heavy weapon teams they also have lasguns?

Just wait for the full rules.

 Blacksails wrote:

 lilgammer123 wrote:
Wait could you fire both weapons on a combi weapon, and how about heavy weapon teams they also have lasguns?

Just wait for the full rules.

Marky said MCs can fire 2 weapons a turn. Combi weapons go on infantry and heavy weapons teams are not MCs and thus can only shoot one weapon a turn.

For shooting,
Yes if you have a flamer or blast weapon shooting it might add an appreciable amount of time to each squad's shooting if you are playing against a new player. Player skill and how well you know know each other (EX: Not having to watch him roll the saves while you're measuring distance and rolling to hit for other weapons). It won't effect me as it only takes me a second to place my flamer template over a squad, see the number of hits and roll to wound.

Seems like this adds tactical choice to the player which I thought a lot of people wanted. It adds to list building decisions like for instance I used to take special weapons squads with 2 flamers and a demo charge. This adds a huge choice when I shoot with the unit now, do I use 2 weak flamers first and get a lot of hits they can save easily and maybe put my demo out of range or use the demo first and reduce the number of hits my flamers can get? People wanted a nerf to shooting and we got a nerf to shooting. Now mixed weapon squads will deal slightly less damage (flamers and blasts will be stealing hits from each other).

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Let's be honest, are any of us veteran players going to change the way we've been rolling? I doubt the majority will, and I know I won't.

Indeed, I'll just resolve things the same way as before. Old habits, and all that.

I like the change. If your gonna play 7th then you need to roll the correct way. The days of rolling all the "to hit" dice from the unit first are gone because it gives an advantage to the player doing it - knowing ahead of time what all hits to choose the order to kill.

I think this is a good change and won't take much longer honestly. Grab 7 dice for 7 bolters. Roll em, and 4 hit. Scoot the dice that missed aside and grab the dice that hit and roll immediately. Hand the wounds to your opponent to save or have him roll his dice.

Repeat. It's simplified and easy to understand.

Yeah, if the guy I'm playing with starts complaining about how I'm rolling dice, that's when I go find a different opponent.

It's already a convoluted game anyway. Let's not get hung up over "You're not rolling dice boat 1, then dice boat 2." I'll roll one and two at once, then take another swig of good brew, cheers.

Well rule are rules, he would be justified. If you home brew it w/e, but if your in a tournament or playing someone you don't know, it would prob be best if you did it as described per 7th.

Just throwing that out there.

Yeah, that's a fair point. But, in a casual setting, you can see why I'd raise an eyebrow and go "Really?" to that.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yeah, that's a fair point. But, in a casual setting, you can see why I'd raise an eyebrow and go "Really?" to that.

Casual with a friend I'm sure this would be worked out ahead of time, and I would not see an issue IMO.

 Guilldog wrote:

Unseeablething wrote:
Does the infantry type allow you to shoot more than one weapon?

Dont know if they changed that yet? As of now no it doesnt and it most likely will be the same. You will have to choose one weapon and fire but if they dont specify in the new book the way the new shooting rules are written this can easily be abused.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
What. The. Hell.

There must be more to this. Surely there are some models out there with crazy multiple weapons that can put this to good use.

Obliterators..... they have ALL the heavy weapons.

Wraithknights. One scatter Laser, One star cannon and 2 Heavy Wraithcannons. Scatter Laser for twin linked, Star cannon for more plasma AP2 goodness (twinlinked thenk you very much scatter laser) and now 2 twin linked wraith cannons... I like this

It really only matters if there is a character involved who is going to use 'look out sir'. Being able to know how many saves he is going to have to make might determine how many wounds he is willing to suck up and how many he is going to use 'look out sir' on.

In any other case, resolving it like 6th edition (in wound pools) would be exactly the same.

But that's the problem really...you don't want to get in the habit of doing it the 'wrong way' (per the rules), so you really are just going to have to get used to rolling per weapon type, which again just adds more time to the game.

Don't forget flamers. If you don't do flamers first all your other shots will be killing off what your flamer could hit since the dead are taken from the front.

 portugus wrote:
Don't forget flamers. If you don't do flamers first all your other shots will be killing off what your flamer could hit since the dead are taken from the front.

Very good point! I guess that applies in general (any weapons with limited range)...I realize that's also another reason they changed the rules (to get rid of that weird range limitation issue with casualty removal that made people go nuts).

Although I still think they could have done the same thing using a 'wound pool'.

What about markers in units, the reason you need networked markers to be able to use them on your own unit is that they are told they 'fire first' iirc and normal markers are simultaneous to the rest of the unit.

What stops me firing my markers first now and benefitting (away from tau codex atm).

 Krellnus wrote:
What about markers in units, the reason you need networked markers to be able to use them on your own unit is that they are told they 'fire first' iirc and normal markers are simultaneous to the rest of the unit.

What stops me firing my markers first now and benefitting (away from tau codex atm).

I would say that would probably be in the first Tau FAQ for 7th edition that a squad can't benefit from it's own markerlghts (unless networked).

I was told I was a disparaging whiner and didn't know anything when I said the new wound allocation would increase the length of the game... But what do I know?

As someone who fields units with multiple flamer types (BSS w/ HF, Fl; Seraphim w/ 2x Two Hand Flamers + Celestine), this is going to be oh so much fun...

... and it's kind of a secret nerf to flamers. Both the ways the previous 6E rules were written allowed for the extension of a wound pool based on the "to hit" roll of the entire unit. The first way could kill guys outside of range, the second way would kill guys up to the max range of the unit.

This now makes units of flame templates back to square one, in a way. It also adds one more layer of thought to tactical decisions as you must decide what weapons will be effective in which order based on model placement (knocking rapid fire weapons out of rapid fire, etc.).

Do the rules address wound allocation for rapid fire models, then? When you rapid fire, is the wound pool only in half distance or whole of the weapon? Silly argument, but I can see that one coming back if not being addressed.

 TheKbob wrote:

Do the rules address wound allocation for rapid fire models, then? When you rapid fire, is the wound pool only in half distance or whole of the weapon? Silly argument, but I can see that one coming back if not being addressed.

Unless they've changed the way it was written in 6th edition, the 'range' of rapid fire weapons does not change...you just get to fire an extra shot if they're within half range of the weapon...so if its still written that way in 7th edition then they can kill up to their maximum range even when firing double shots.

 TheKbob wrote:
I was told I was a disparaging whiner and didn't know anything when I said the new wound allocation would increase the length of the game... But what do I know?

As someone who fields units with multiple flamer types (BSS w/ HF, Fl; Seraphim w/ 2x Two Hand Flamers + Celestine), this is going to be oh so much fun...

... and it's kind of a secret nerf to flamers. Both the ways the previous 6E rules were written allowed for the extension of a wound pool based on the "to hit" roll of the entire unit. The first way could kill guys outside of range, the second way would kill guys up to the max range of the unit.

Yeah I agree, I play against 2 SoB players a lot and both run that same unit and I can see how it will really hurt you getting wounds. It's entirely possible your hand flamers will leave your heavy flamer out of range every time you shoot at a lot of weak guys. It's funny in a sad way that having a heavy flamer in that unit is now a handicap vs. an upgrade.

 yakface wrote:

 portugus wrote:
Don't forget flamers. If you don't do flamers first all your other shots will be killing off what your flamer could hit since the dead are taken from the front.

Very good point! I guess that applies in general (any weapons with limited range)...I realize that's also another reason they changed the rules (to get rid of that weird range limitation issue with casualty removal that made people go nuts).

Although I still think they could have done the same thing using a 'wound pool'.

Well, based on the synopsis, there is no requirement that casualties be in range of the weapon. Only thing it says is that to shoot, there must be a model in range and LOS. Hopefully the full text covers this.

 Swastakowey wrote:
What. The. Hell.

There must be more to this. Surely there are some models out there with crazy multiple weapons that can put this to good use.

Grey hunters!
Now I can shoot both my bolter and my bolt pistol c;