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 minigun762 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
All the Flyrants in the world aren't stopping a Land Raider from capturing objective.

If all you do is fly around and try to hurt it with your S6 shots, then yes you are correct.

All the Bolters in the world aren't going to hurt a Wraithlord scoring an objective but that doesn't make Bolters bad or Wraithlords overpowered.

It's essentially GW telling Tyranid players to buy more overpriced Hive crone/Harpy kits if they ever want to win.

It's the basest form of pay to win mentality.

 minigun762 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
All the Flyrants in the world aren't stopping a Land Raider from capturing objective.

If all you do is fly around and try to hurt it with your S6 shots, then yes you are correct.

All the Bolters in the world aren't going to hurt a Wraithlord scoring an objective but that doesn't make Bolters bad or Wraithlords overpowered.

My sentiments exactly. And I didn't think crones or harpys are required. I think zoanthropes just got UBER good. They will be my go to Land raider tin openers....

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes, that is indeed the new rule for making Smash attacks, making every Monstrous Creature that doesn't have Armour or really high Strength completely terrible against even a moderately tough vehicle.

Vast majority (90% or so) of the vehicles in game have AV10 rear armour and 2 to 3 hull points. Even S6 MC should easily kill or cripple a vehicle most of the time with regular attacks.

Sure, Land Raiders and most Walkers are bit tougher, but those units were so laughably bad in 6th edition that surely nobody is seriously going to whine if they get a slight buff??

I say this is actually a good change.

Backfire wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes, that is indeed the new rule for making Smash attacks, making every Monstrous Creature that doesn't have Armour or really high Strength completely terrible against even a moderately tough vehicle.

Vast majority (90% or so) of the vehicles in game have AV10 rear armour and 2 to 3 hull points. Even S6 MC should easily kill or cripple a vehicle most of the time with regular attacks.

Sure, Land Raiders and most Walkers are bit tougher, but those units were so laughably bad in 6th edition that surely nobody is seriously going to whine if they get a slight buff??

I say this is actually a good change.

Agreed. I think overall it's a positive to the game in general. Just means that certain nid MC's have suffered. It also makes a hardly competed slot of the FoC even more competed. So thank the Lord for unbound lists!

Backfire wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Yes, that is indeed the new rule for making Smash attacks, making every Monstrous Creature that doesn't have Armour or really high Strength completely terrible against even a moderately tough vehicle.

Vast majority (90% or so) of the vehicles in game have AV10 rear armour and 2 to 3 hull points. Even S6 MC should easily kill or cripple a vehicle most of the time with regular attacks.

Sure, Land Raiders and most Walkers are bit tougher, but those units were so laughably bad in 6th edition that surely nobody is seriously going to whine if they get a slight buff??

I say this is actually a good change.

Tyranids shouldn't have to shoot a vehicle to tear it open like a tin can. A Trygon shouldn't be tarpitted by a Dreadnought, nor should it be a hopelessly inefficient Land Raider killer. It's a fething bio-titan. And why do Tyrant guard get crushing claws but not Hive Tyrants? Does GW want the melee hive Tyrant to be completely dead and buried without sinking a stupidly massive amount of points into it? Because feth having to put Hive Tyrants in the air shooting away like sissies rather than be on the ground tearing gak up up close and personal like a Tyranid should.

But GW has decreed that assault must suck because feth Tyranids, Orks, and Khorne.

Again, I agree with you. Certain units like the Hive tyrant should be stronger. Especially if you go down the fluff and story route. But it's not the end of the world. Armies won't have 15 land raiders. You'll still only see a few. Tyrants are still very good in combat. A hive tyrant will still tear a squad of terminators limb from limb. It just means carnifix's are a must if your meta is heavy with AV13+ walkers and tanks. But rear armour on anything else and you can still glance it to death with most. I'm going to take 2 carnys for tin can opening duties. And use the rest on other things. Most of them will still seriously upset anything of leman russ type and equivalent. It's just not always a 100% guarantee like before.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Again, I agree with you. Certain units like the Hive tyrant should be stronger. Especially if you go down the fluff and story route. But it's not the end of the world. Armies won't have 15 land raiders. You'll still only see a few. Tyrants are still very good in combat. A hive tyrant will still tear a squad of terminators limb from limb. It just means carnifix's are a must if your meta is heavy with AV13+ walkers and tanks. But rear armour on anything else and you can still glance it to death with most. I'm going to take 2 carnys for tin can opening duties. And use the rest on other things. Most of them will still seriously upset anything of leman russ type and equivalent. It's just not always a 100% guarantee like before.

I just think that if GW doesn't want anyone to actually assault anymore that they should stop the shenanigans and just cut out all melee from the game so we don't have to see assault become less and less relevant every edition. The sad state it's in now is a pitiable thing begging to be put out of it's misery.

I'm not entirely with you there for the first time. I managed to make melee work for me in 6th. It was hard, but I did it. Smash has hurt. Quite a bit in fact. But I don't think it's a game changer. The swarm lord can still annihilate a riptide. Most other MC's in the dex can annihilate absolutely any elite infantry. We just need to make use of carnifix's and such. And actually, they're better now. There's not very many strength 10 creatures out there. A dread will get 2-3 attacks. It'll punch the carny in the face, but won't kill it. The carny will then pull it's arms off. So it still does its job. It's jus dreads are now viable.

Remember. People aren't going to suddenly start spamming dreads and land raiders just because smash has got worse. Land raiders are still poo. And the rule set means shooting is still the main form of attack. The rules font change the fact that meltas will kill tanks. I don't know how many you come across. But I haven't come across one yet.

Also, vector strike is now ap2. So the flyrant is even better at taking fliers down then before.

And with the new psychic rules, his abilities kick ass.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I'm not entirely with you there for the first time. I managed to make melee work for me in 6th. It was hard, but I did it. Smash has hurt. Quite a bit in fact. But I don't think it's a game changer. The swarm lord can still annihilate a riptide. Most other MC's in the dex can annihilate absolutely any elite infantry. We just need to make use of carnifix's and such. And actually, they're better now. There's not very many strength 10 creatures out there. A dread will get 2-3 attacks. It'll punch the carny in the face, but won't kill it. The carny will then pull it's arms off. So it still does its job. It's jus dreads are now viable.

Remember. People aren't going to suddenly start spamming dreads and land raiders just because smash has got worse. Land raiders are still poo. And the rule set means shooting is still the main form of attack. The rules font change the fact that meltas will kill tanks. I don't know how many you come across. But I haven't come across one yet.

Also, vector strike is now ap2. So the flyrant is even better at taking fliers down then before.

And with the new psychic rules, his abilities kick ass.

The Swarmlord's not very good as far as ridiculous super-killy models go. The lack of eternal warrior in particular is a massive strike against him, only further worsened by him being way too slow. Even back when the Swarmlord was actually good he was still painfully slow compared to the crazier death stars running around.

Even if he had biomancy again, he'd still not be able to compare Be'Lakor with invisibility and the grimoire. (Factoring the cost of the grimoire holder and the extra MLs for the Swarmy to get his powers off, and the Prime and Guard to provide ablative wounds).

I'm just really bummed about my Trygons being overpriced light weights now. I guess I'm happy to see carnifexes useful again, but I've loved Trygons and Melee tyrants for a long time and I hate to see them made so...ineffectual.

In any case, I'm mostly going to be playing Necrons on vassal now, maybe Orks, but no more non-homebrew'd Tyranids with this ruleset anymore. The decline of the army from the colourful and weird force of nature deadset on tearing your face off in brutal close combat that it was in 2e to a painfully boring shooty monobuild FMC spam army in 7e just makes me sad.

So let me get this straight about FMCs.

If in the previous turn I was swooping, and at the beginning of THIS turn I decided I want to glide so I CAN assault, because last turn I wasn't swooping, I cannot assault?

GoliothOnline wrote:
So let me get this straight about FMCs.

If in the previous turn I was swooping, and at the beginning of THIS turn I decided I want to glide so I CAN assault, because last turn I wasn't swooping, I cannot assault?

Yes.

It makes me sad too. Tyranids should be the single greatest force to be reconed with in close combat. Their big beasties should be able to rip anything apart. But they can't. So as I want to build a nasty nid list I'm going to have to suck it up and do what I can. Luckily. I have bought nothing yet. Although I can see me dropping trygons fast. But I'm going to attempt to build a combat type army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
So let me get this straight about FMCs.

If in the previous turn I was swooping, and at the beginning of THIS turn I decided I want to glide so I CAN assault, because last turn I wasn't swooping, I cannot assault?

Basically, the turn in which you change your style of flight you can't assault. That's the new rules.

Note however, if you become grounded at the end of the enemies shooting phase, you can then assault in your assault phase. That is written specifically in the rules.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
It makes me sad too. Tyranids should be the single greatest force to be reconed with in close combat. Their big beasties should be able to rip anything apart. But they can't. So as I want to build a nasty nid list I'm going to have to suck it up and do what I can. Luckily. I have bought nothing yet. Although I can see me dropping trygons fast. But I'm going to attempt to build a combat type army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoliothOnline wrote:
So let me get this straight about FMCs.

If in the previous turn I was swooping, and at the beginning of THIS turn I decided I want to glide so I CAN assault, because last turn I wasn't swooping, I cannot assault?

Basically, the turn in which you change your style of flight you can't assault. That's the new rules.

Note however, if you become grounded at the end of the enemies shooting phase, you can then assault in your assault phase. That is written specifically in the rules.

is this realy the case.....

(leaves house with 1 beloved deamon price and a spade)

Yeah.... That makes Slaanesh Daemon Princes with Lash pretty much my new go-to Daemon Prince now. I mean, if they're going to stay in the air all game, might as well give them good abilities to shoot, right?

I mean sure you can flickering fire all day with a ML 3 DP of tzeentch, but with the new powers from Summoning, maybe I'll just use Slaanesh DPs as hovering summoning beasties that piss off my opponents with reinforcements while my other stuff closes the gap.

Interestingly, Strength D weapons count as S10 for instant death. Which means all those T6 monsters just take a wound and take a cover save.
That makes big bugs pretty durable to strength D stuff.
I'd bet on a tyrant doing smash attacks vs a Imperial Knight and his attacks.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Interestingly, Strength D weapons count as S10 for instant death. Which means all those T6 monsters just take a wound and take a cover save.
That makes big bugs pretty durable to strength D stuff.
I'd bet on a tyrant doing smash attacks vs a Imperial Knight and his attacks.

D weapons never cause just one wound.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Interestingly, Strength D weapons count as S10 for instant death. Which means all those T6 monsters just take a wound and take a cover save.
That makes big bugs pretty durable to strength D stuff.
I'd bet on a tyrant doing smash attacks vs a Imperial Knight and his attacks.

A knight is always going to cause at least d3 wounds per hit, or d6+6 wounds on a six (which is far nastier than instant death because you can count the number of models that can survive that many all save ignoring wounds with your hands) the Hive Tyrant is pretty royally screwed here.

Really, an Imperial Knight is overkill, any melee Dreadnought can take down a Hive Tyrant now for a third of the cost of a Knight.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Really, an Imperial Knight is overkill, any melee Dreadnought can take down a Hive Tyrant now for a third of the cost of a Knight.

Huh, and I thought that a furious charge with The Reaper of Obliterax would be enough. S8 on the charge, with 6 attacks and WS8 AP2 (gives +1 to the damage chart rolls).
That's a 37% chance of exploding the dread or tearing an arm off, and on average does at least 2 hull points.

Add in an electroshock grubs haywire effect on the way in, and more often then not the tyrant is wrecking the dreadnought without taking a hit. As he should, as he costs twice as much.

Yeah, Electroshock grubs are going to be mandatory on every Tyranid that can have them with the new Smash rules in play.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Really, an Imperial Knight is overkill, any melee Dreadnought can take down a Hive Tyrant now for a third of the cost of a Knight.

Huh, and I thought that a furious charge with The Reaper of Obliterax would be enough. S8 on the charge, with 6 attacks and WS8 AP2 (gives +1 to the damage chart rolls).
That's a 37% chance of exploding the dread or tearing an arm off, and on average does at least 2 hull points.

Add in an electroshock grubs haywire effect on the way in, and more often then not the tyrant is wrecking the dreadnought without taking a hit. As he should, as he costs twice as much.

With that load out you are right. But the Reaper and Adrenal Glands are costing a small fortune on an already expensive guy. And that's if you can get him there. You can put wings on him sure, but then you have to land. Be shot at a turn, and then make combat. Tyrants are now definitely not the things for assaulting walkers. Pretty much any other tank or vehicle it'll be OK. But not Walkers. Leave that to the carnys or the zoeys.

They're really not the thing for charging any vehicles any more, if they're lightly armoured you're better off unloading devourers into them. If they're heavily armoured your chances of doing any damage without multiple Strength buffs is so small it's not worth the risk.

Exactly. But rhea are awesome at ripping elite infantry to shreds.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Exactly. But rhea are awesome at ripping elite infantry to shreds.

You mean get pulped by Assault Terminators and Wraiths because they themselves don't have invulnerable saves right?

 Kain wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Exactly. But rhea are awesome at ripping elite infantry to shreds.

You mean get pulped by Assault Terminators and Wraiths because they themselves don't have invulnerable saves right?

I think someone should just pack away all his GW stuff and go put his dummy back in.

Jeez, we get it, you feel hard done by. Nids haven't been great for a long time, so do what the rest of us do - make the bad of a best situation. It makes winning all the more sweeter.

I agree, make the best of a bad situation.

Play your Tyranids as a different army that isn't GW's punching bag (so pretty much anything except Tyranids and Sisters).

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I agree, make the best of a bad situation.

Play your Tyranids as a different army that isn't GW's punching bag (so pretty much anything except Tyranids and Sisters).

Or playtest 1d4chan's Tyranid fandex.

We've got reasonable marines, squats, dark angels that don't suck, the covenant, and better sisters to boot.

Though some gaming groups may be less receptive to a fandex than others, YMMV.

Mine, for instance, seems to think Tyranids are crazy overpowered despite my loss record against the local Tau and Eldar players, and would probably see using a fandex as TFG behaviour.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Though some gaming groups may be less receptive to a fandex than others, YMMV.

Mine, for instance, seems to think Tyranids are crazy overpowered despite my loss record against the local Tau and Eldar players, and would probably see using a fandex as TFG behaviour.

Ever tried Vassal to get some games in a more global meta?

Well, lets talk competitive nid armies using the new rules, and the current codex. What are peoples thoughts?