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 ashikenshin wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
Is it rules legal to put marines in a Valkyrie now?

yes!

Awesome. Shenanigans inbound. 5 man Marine squad in a vendetta? Yes please.

Quick question:

Can you reserve your entire army again like in 5th edition?

I've been looking for the carry over from 6th edition rule that said you lost if you didn't have units on the board, but I can't find it. Am I just overlooking it?

omerakk wrote:
Quick question:

Can you reserve your entire army again like in 5th edition?

I've been looking for the carry over from 6th edition rule that said you lost if you didn't have units on the board, but I can't find it. Am I just overlooking it?

Page 133, right side of the page, top paragraph.

 jy2 wrote:

I'll tell you this now. Ultramarines are still good in 7th. Actually, they are strong enough to potentially win tournaments!

People still don't realize how strong Objectives Secured will be.

People still don't realize you need mobile scoring to compete in this game.

Ultramarines have both.


I would run something like this:


Marneus Calgar

6x10 Tacticals in Drop Pods (or even in rhinos)

Stormtalons

Thunderfire Cannons.


That's potentially 18 scoring units that can only be contested by other Bound troops. That's solid both in Eternal War and Maelstrom missions (particularly in Maelstrom missions).

Jy2 hits it right on the head. Though we haven't seen this edition long enough to realize it en mass yet, this is going to be an edition of MSU Mobile Objective Secured scoring, not an edition of Unbound Madness. Oh it'll start that way, but as soon as the first GTs and Tourney results start coming in, it's going to make a switch hard and fast. Unbound armies won't even be a though for tournament lists.

6xTac Combat Squadded with Dedicated Transports equals 18 Objective Secured Scoring Units. 18 units that you can only contest with another Objective Secured Unit and that will deny and claim anything else.


Ultra marines have all the tools necessary to put together solid list filled with Objective Secured Scoring. And with their tactical abilities they can excel and do some pretty spectacular stuff. They don't even need to alpha strike, it's just one of their now many options.

Seriously, cheap(<40pt) Objective Secured vehicles are pure gold in this edition. Not only did a Rhino or Drop Pod get tougher to kill, they now are some of the best scoring units in the game, and the cheapest dedicated transports as well.

Good Generals will do amazing things with the Smurfs this edition.

There is still something to be said about a block of thss termies. Marines are good, just not cheese

omerakk wrote:
Thanks for the help guys!

So the general consensus is that Ultramarines require Tigurius or Calgar to be effective; preferred in a drop pod list for the alpha strike damage in order to succeed?

If wanting to use rhinos instead of pods, do you think Ultras are still the way to go? Or Would Raven Guard tactics be better because of scout and stealth?

Nooooooooooooo. There isn't one single internet-approved-cheese-mode to Ultramarines. That is the lesson to be had here.

If you want to copy paste your list and just point and click your army then Ultramarines are a bad choice in armies. You need to understand the abilities and limitations of every single unit you field, or else you will not succeed.

I play Ultramarines in a Demi-Company fashion with a balanced list including, Vindi's, Typhoons, a Rifle Dread, Rhino mounted Tac Squads, Assault Marines, Devestators, Scouts, with other units tagging in and out, and I win the vast majority of my games.

My opponents are everything from cheesy power-dex players to your casual plays-and-army-because-they-love-it type player.

There is no denying that some codexes and rules are stronger than others, but the hard truth is that pure vanilla Ultramarines are one of the few skill based armies still left in 40k, where being good at the game makes a serious difference in the outcome of your battles. You will have a hard time against the less skilled cheese based armies, but you will your earn your victories the way the Emperor intended you to earn them.

As long as GW hates Chaos, the Ultramarines can always be better than someone. -__-*

My experience is that they work pretty well. You need a flexibility as a player (more so than with some other armies) but they still have lots of options.

I was originally looking at a Raven Guard successor army along these lines:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596982.page[url]

Maybe changing the vanguard squad to a sternguard.

 Zagman wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

I'll tell you this now. Ultramarines are still good in 7th. Actually, they are strong enough to potentially win tournaments!

People still don't realize how strong Objectives Secured will be.

People still don't realize you need mobile scoring to compete in this game.

Ultramarines have both.


I would run something like this:


Marneus Calgar

6x10 Tacticals in Drop Pods (or even in rhinos)

Stormtalons

Thunderfire Cannons.


That's potentially 18 scoring units that can only be contested by other Bound troops. That's solid both in Eternal War and Maelstrom missions (particularly in Maelstrom missions).

Jy2 hits it right on the head. Though we haven't seen this edition long enough to realize it en mass yet, this is going to be an edition of MSU Mobile Objective Secured scoring, not an edition of Unbound Madness. Oh it'll start that way, but as soon as the first GTs and Tourney results start coming in, it's going to make a switch hard and fast. Unbound armies won't even be a though for tournament lists.

6xTac Combat Squadded with Dedicated Transports equals 18 Objective Secured Scoring Units. 18 units that you can only contest with another Objective Secured Unit and that will deny and claim anything else.


Ultra marines have all the tools necessary to put together solid list filled with Objective Secured Scoring. And with their tactical abilities they can excel and do some pretty spectacular stuff. They don't even need to alpha strike, it's just one of their now many options.

Seriously, cheap(<40pt) Objective Secured vehicles are pure gold in this edition. Not only did a Rhino or Drop Pod get tougher to kill, they now are some of the best scoring units in the game, and the cheapest dedicated transports as well.

Good Generals will do amazing things with the Smurfs this edition.

Objective Secured is powerful, sure. But your 5x Tac squad can't hold anything if I blow them off the board. They'll get the turn they drop in to claim something, but then they're sitting ducks. And they aren't exactly fast. A rhino list is the same thing. You can put a lot of troops on the field, but I'm going to bring a lot of (insert tank-busting unit here, be it fire prisms, broadsides, raiders, etc) and those troops a) won't be mobile for long and b) will be out in the open as soon as I drop them.

That's not to say that OS isn't useful. I just think you guys are on the opposite wing, overvaluing it. I can see super disposable units with it being incredible (Eldar windriders; they can move 48" and are 51 points each unit) but marines have neither that speed nor that cheapness to complement them. Flexible as they are, they are probably not as good at the new missions as they are the old.

I dunno, I actually think they are doing much better in the new missions than they did in the old.

Tac marine/rhino spam was a legitimate thing in 5th edition, then disappeared when vehicles took a hit in 6th. Now that the vehicles have been given buffed in 7th, I think it can become a winning strategy again.

omerakk wrote:
I dunno, I actually think they are doing much better in the new missions than they did in the old.

Tac marine/rhino spam was a legitimate thing in 5th edition, then disappeared when vehicles took a hit in 6th. Now that the vehicles have been given buffed in 7th, I think it can become a winning strategy again.

And with Combat Squads its up to 18 Objective Secured units. That alone is just a pain for any opponent take care of.

I think a solid list based on Tacticals will do well against a variety of opponents. May not be the list to beat, but it won't get laughed off the table like it would have in 6th.

How do you take best advantage of their special rules with a list with drop pods and Calgar

Smurfs are one of the best 7th ed armies, it's just not an easymode army.

Smurfs are a better drop pod army than Salamanders IMO, especially once a 2 book limit is set. The 2 book limit means other chapters can ally in tiggy or take IG/GK, but not both.

Smurfs and IG are a scary combo now. Just add Yarrik and some priests to the pods and backfield vets in reserve. Basic tac marines are scary in cc with a priest. Once a priest joins a squad then the squad can recieve orders from Yarrik and gain ignore cover or tank hunters.

I honestly think I would rather have Marneus and no priests for most tac squads.

I think yarrick is good if you take a medium size blob behind an aegis on your side of the field. I also like to take a conscript squad with a priest to Objective secured your backfield.

Then drop pod in the rest of the army. You get to control your leadership tests through yarrick being a commissar as well as marneus auto passing or failing. Combat squad everything so he has to kill everything down to the man as well as drop pods. Use the tactical objectives twice as well as with re-rolls for a battle forged it should be pretty easy to get the best warlord trait for marneus on that mission. All in all I think that will be a solid army within the two forces limit.

Also take two thunder fires and a wyvern or two. Here is a quick 1850 list I mocked up.

Yarrick
40x conscripts with commissar
3x infantry squad with lascannon
platoon cmd
Wyvern

Marneus
5x drop pod with 5 man marines - combi plasma/plasma
two x thunderfire cannon drop pod
Aegis

Just a quick mock up, but has between 15 and 17 objective secured units. 7 drop pods so 4 coming in first turn, two uses of tactical doctrine. If you shift two of the tac squads to melta combi melta you can work in a comms relay or an ammo dump on the aegis as well.

Like I said it is a quick mock up list but I think it has some promise.

 Leth wrote:
I honestly think I would rather have Marneus and no priests for most tac squads.

I think yarrick is good if you take a medium size blob behind an aegis on your side of the field. I also like to take a conscript squad with a priest to Objective secured your backfield.

Then drop pod in the rest of the army. You get to control your leadership tests through yarrick being a commissar as well as marneus auto passing or failing. Combat squad everything so he has to kill everything down to the man as well as drop pods. Use the tactical objectives twice as well as with re-rolls for a battle forged it should be pretty easy to get the best warlord trait for marneus on that mission. All in all I think that will be a solid army within the two forces limit.

Also take two thunder fires and a wyvern or two. Here is a quick 1850 list I mocked up.

Yarrick
40x conscripts with commissar
3x infantry squad with lascannon
platoon cmd
Wyvern

Marneus
5x drop pod with 5 man marines - combi plasma/plasma
two x thunderfire cannon drop pod
Aegis

Just a quick mock up, but has between 15 and 17 objective secured units. 7 drop pods so 4 coming in first turn, two uses of tactical doctrine. If you shift two of the tac squads to melta combi melta you can work in a comms relay or an ammo dump on the aegis as well.

Like I said it is a quick mock up list but I think it has some promise.

Tiggy
4x drop pods 10 tac marines each plas/combiplas/mm
2x pod 5tac melta/combi melta
3x pod 5assault 2flamer/combi melta
Yarrik
2 priests
vets with an ac

IC ride in a 5man pod, split off, and join a pair of 10 man squads. Yarrik gives 2 squads ignore cover or tank hunters. 5 pods land on turn 1. Vets start in reserve and nothing starts on the board.

Lots of good ways to skin this cat.

Problem is that just tiggy as a caster is going to be pretty easy to shut down. I would definately want to run at least 2 lvl 2 primaris as support.

A lvl2 primaris is 75, or a lvl3 libby is 115.

Tournaments are talking about dispel caps, if that's the case tiggy is fine alone.

Leth wrote:Problem is that just tiggy as a caster is going to be pretty easy to shut down. I would definately want to run at least 2 lvl 2 primaris as support.

schadenfreude wrote:A lvl2 primaris is 75, or a lvl3 libby is 115.

Tournaments are talking about dispel caps, if that's the case tiggy is fine alone.

Honestly a single caster can still be effective, if you are willing to risk Perils you can power through something on all of your dice. 6-10WC(Rolling a 3+ for Dice) for an average 3-5WC success makes it almost impossible to Deny. Very very few armies will have enough Deny Dice. And if its an army with 30+, well they doubled down in the psychic phase and that is the game we play. If you roll very low Warp Charges, yeah, then it'll be tough, but against most armies and in most situations Tigerius should be able to power through at least one power per turn.

Adding even one other Psyker could give him enough dice 6-12 every turn to really get 1-2 powers off. At 10 dice, you have a 50% chance of Perils.

I wouldn't say the weakest in any way shape or form, I'd put them holding a bronze on the podium behind scars and hands

I don't think that Ultramarines are less handicapped than any of the other chapters but the definitely have the hardest Chapter Tactics to use. They are good but you can only use them once per game and use them at the right time to make it worth it.

That is why I prefer the Imperial Fists and others use the other Chapters as well.

 Leth wrote:

Bal4eva wrote:
So you're original question is what do UM have over other chapters. The answer is loads more special characters. Even if you don't count Tiggy, who is the best, you still have Calgar who is better than most other CM/captain special characters in the codex. He is a cc beatstick comes with loads of buffs and allows you to run 2x chapter tactics. Plus loads more.

If you are being tournament competitive then you have your tiggy centstar that only UM can use if you are staying with a pure army like you originally asked.

I think the cent star is going to go down in competativeness. It was powerful because it was counter meta. Now I feel that the meta is going to shift away from those types of units and so the cent star is going to be pretty meh. You are spending 1000+ points to target two units. Now worth it when everyone is MSU transports.

I think drop marines is gonna be really good as well

The other thing that really hurts the Centurionstar is the loss of Tau buff commanders. Adding twin-linking and Ignores Cover and Hit and Run with no additional dice rolling was really what powered the unit in a lot of armies. The final thing that will hurt Centurions is a massive reduction in the number of Riptides that we see on the table.

Thanks for the thread; it''s got me juiced to restart by ultramarines with three years of dust. Pity I can't ally them my orks - at least fluff wise.