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Not counting allying in Tig to a different army; I mean running Ultramarines as the main.

It seems like all of the other marine factions have so much more going for them, they completely overshadow the old baby blues.

Do you think 7th has given them any hope? Or are they still the weak choice?

They are outnumbered, outgunned vs mob armies. Outcheesed by other elite armies like Eldar, so yes imho they are pretty hopeless.

It takes a very experienced and intelligent player to be competitive with them which rules me out XD

In the highly competitive world where you pit your broken deathstar vs. your opponents, or utilize other hyper-focused tactics, they might not be the best. They are, after all, the iconic jack of all trades chapter. And you could probably do a fine grav-star army with pure Ultras. It might not be as tough as the IH version, but should still work.

On the average table they do just fine.

They play to the mission better than most other armies with a significant number of tactical options. I think to be super competative you would probably want Calgar, but it really depends too much on your mission rules to say for sure.

i dont see why they cant hold for themself. UM has all the arsenal at their hands. Is just how you play them.

Also what is your list like... cc,long range or balance. For me a balance list is the best. I have played with several UM player at my local store an i have seen them defeating ork, eldar & nidz. No problems there.

I think UM might be the strongest chapter, but its also the hardest to pull it's power out.

IH and WS however, while also quite strong, are rather easy to pull out the power from. so they are the go-to chapters. they require doing less correct in-game decisions, and do not base themselves on balanced lists.

Try some tactical spam. Combat squads and rhinos everywhere. Just dare your opponent to take out all your objective secured stuff with their big bad death star before the game ends.

Raven Guard do it a bit better, but you're sitting on one of the strongest armies.

if im not wrong thunder fire canon can fire indirect since it is a barrage weapon. Fielding 2 of this is really nasty considering you can fortify defence. Sorry not very sure of the details i play SW. Assault termie is a must have in UM army, most of my local player always have one with a chapter master suit up for CC. Bare in mind that UM assault termie are cheap.. thats why its a must have. Make sure you have typhoon speeder.. at least one. Having those new flakk guns.. forgot the name... is good as well to gun down those nasty flyer.

It takes practice my friend to muster one army.. i have been playing my wolves since 2nd ed. So keep on playing and modifying you list till you have a comfortable list to play with.

I ran a pure pod list with Calgar and Tiggy. Never lost a game with it... Seven pods at 1850.

Depends on your meta. Are you going to be winning a GT with an Ultramarine army that doesn't abuse some kind of Centurion-star? No.

They're probably doable in decently competitive meta, though.

I like them, my friend plays with them and he does a real good job against several armies (mine included). The ability to pick 3 different tactics means you can really adapt to a new situation.

Yea, I want to run it but I really need 5 pods minimum to make it work. Two pods short and I REALLY dont want to make two more.

Still I think ultras definately have some serious promise, unparalleled alpha strike, and with the change to everything scoring it doesnt have to be all tacticals now. Get 1-2 squads of honor/stern guard in there among the tactical marines in pods. Good times will be had.

 Leth wrote:
Yea, I want to run it but I really need 5 pods minimum to make it work. Two pods short and I REALLY dont want to make two more.

Still I think ultras definately have some serious promise, unparalleled alpha strike, and with the change to everything scoring it doesnt have to be all tacticals now. Get 1-2 squads of honor/stern guard in there among the tactical marines in pods. Good times will be had.

Unparalleled alpha strike? Personally I think that belongs to the salamanders pod list?

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yea, I want to run it but I really need 5 pods minimum to make it work. Two pods short and I REALLY dont want to make two more.

Still I think ultras definately have some serious promise, unparalleled alpha strike, and with the change to everything scoring it doesnt have to be all tacticals now. Get 1-2 squads of honor/stern guard in there among the tactical marines in pods. Good times will be had.

Unparalleled alpha strike? Personally I think that belongs to the salamanders pod list?

Everything salamnders can do, ultra marines can do the same on the turn they arrive only it is not limited to melta and flamers.

I'll tell you this now. Ultramarines are still good in 7th. Actually, they are strong enough to potentially win tournaments!

People still don't realize how strong Objectives Secured will be.

People still don't realize you need mobile scoring to compete in this game.

Ultramarines have both.


I would run something like this:


Marneus Calgar

6x10 Tacticals in Drop Pods (or even in rhinos)

Stormtalons

Thunderfire Cannons.


That's potentially 18 scoring units that can only be contested by other Bound troops. That's solid both in Eternal War and Maelstrom missions (particularly in Maelstrom missions).

I see what you're saying there; that would definitely be a strong force!

Do Ultramarines really benefit that army though? It seems like everything they do, a different chapter could do better with a Tac-spam list.

Imperial Fists shoot bolters better
Salamanders have better flamers and combi weapons (and sometimes melta)

Ultramarines can have everything, if only for a turn. You play the tactical doctrine, and your tac squads are going to out bolter drill the Fists, while the all special and heavies re-roll misses. While your sternguard don’t get the full re-roll, re-rolling ones works with special ammo, unlike normal bolter drill.

For a drop pod army, where you are ensured one good shot, it lets you make it count. Rather then a solid mediocre boost all game, you get spike performance when you need it.

Tigurius alone validates every single ultramarine list as competitive. There are several valid arguments listed above which prove ultramarines can be competitive, however I would like to point out a few more.
Calgar's ability to use the tactical doctrine twice makes our bolter fire significantly better then imperial fists. Over the course of a game you might roll maybe 15-20 1s but the tactical doctrine let's you reroll all the misses with those same bolters plus all the other weapons rerolling 1s. How many rerolls do you think that is? Minus calgar that makes At least one doctrine use equal to an entire imperial fist's bolter drill in one turn plus other weapons.

Meltas and flamers are both limited by what kind of units they can take out. Sure they are specialized and do what they are supposed to do well but they can be properly countered by a good player. Flamers kill hoards but do absolutely nothing to monstrous creatures and vehicles, meltas are really only good at killing vehicles or elite small model units. The problem is, that "bubble-wrapping" your vehicles with well placed infantry easily stops meltas in their tracks and flamers can only take you so far. The survivability of marines is sad, so I want a little more out of my alpha strike then having to rely on an opponent to position poorly.

The rest of the marines don't have as good offensive alpha strikes.

As for the rest, never count on your marines to live and make their armor saves. Just take out as much of the hard-hitting units as you can and hope you saved the right units to do the right jobs and win the game for you. Also, as an ultramarines player I have found that balanced lists work best and each game I play I find the key to victory being a different unit every game. Sometimes my tacticals get it done, sometimes late game charges by my HQ or bikes change the game, sometimes my TFC and dev squads put in the most work. More often then not it is one lone marine who survives and falls back to capture some objective that everyone forgot about
Who wins me the game.

Thanks for the help guys!

So the general consensus is that Ultramarines require Tigurius or Calgar to be effective; preferred in a drop pod list for the alpha strike damage in order to succeed?

If wanting to use rhinos instead of pods, do you think Ultras are still the way to go? Or Would Raven Guard tactics be better because of scout and stealth?

It is not required, its just that they are so good that its hard to not take them when you have a mandatory HQ. Tigurius is ridiculous now that he can cast on the turn he comes in. Especially in a pod list. I probably wouldnt take calgar below 1850.

So guys, I am looking at adding some Ultramarine allies to my Astra Militarum in order to add some much needed mobility.

Usually, my AM runs a combination of Mechanized and Gunline at 1850. The Mechanized element being a couple Leman Russ tanks, 3 chimera vet squads with 2 plasma guns (can do more though) and a couple valkyries, while I have my big platoon with heavy weapons and a command squad at the back with an Aegis Line.

Its looking more and more like the Gunline element is going to be a bit useless, as it seems mobility is now key. What should be added from the ol' SM codex in this case? I really like Sternguard as a unit, I would love to figure out a way to fit them in somehow. Perhaps something akin to this-

Tank Commander- Vanquisher (LC)
Vanquisher (LC)

3x Chimera Vets w/ 2 plasma each or whatever other special weapons
1x Leman Russ Exterminator
2x Valkyries or Vendettas

This is my main force as far as mechanized goes. What would be some good additions? Drop pods? Rhinos with tac squads?

Something I just thought of, can you legally put marines in Valkyries?

I suspect that Tigurius's ability to reroll the dice when casting is being grossly undervalued by people right now. I am definitely going to be allying him into my IG list and I'm even considering going back to running UM's primary. He has the best odds of getting the exact powers he wants, and is far more likely to succeed than anybody else. Barring daemons/summoning spam shenanigans, I'd guess he's the best psyker in the game now.

Also with all this psyker spam going around, hereticus inquisitors with psyocculum are going to be a staple of my lists now, maybe even with a nullrod.

For 75 points, you turn a unit into BS 10 against psykers and make them immune to spells targeting them. In a nice big unit of terminators, or something like that, it provides a strong counter to the deathstars out there, especially those that rely on shooting.

He is even better now that most precision shots are gone. and he can go in transports

So you're original question is what do UM have over other chapters. The answer is loads more special characters. Even if you don't count Tiggy, who is the best, you still have Calgar who is better than most other CM/captain special characters in the codex. He is a cc beatstick comes with loads of buffs and allows you to run 2x chapter tactics. Plus loads more.

If you are being tournament competitive then you have your tiggy centstar that only UM can use if you are staying with a pure army like you originally asked.

Bal4eva wrote:
So you're original question is what do UM have over other chapters. The answer is loads more special characters. Even if you don't count Tiggy, who is the best, you still have Calgar who is better than most other CM/captain special characters in the codex. He is a cc beatstick comes with loads of buffs and allows you to run 2x chapter tactics. Plus loads more.

If you are being tournament competitive then you have your tiggy centstar that only UM can use if you are staying with a pure army like you originally asked.

I think the cent star is going to go down in competativeness. It was powerful because it was counter meta. Now I feel that the meta is going to shift away from those types of units and so the cent star is going to be pretty meh. You are spending 1000+ points to target two units. Now worth it when everyone is MSU transports.

I think drop marines is gonna be really good as well

I'm not sure what you're adding to get it over 1000pts but you can make it very useful for less and if you are saying something isn't competitive because it isn't the most broken unit in the game then that is an unfair definition. Vs demon factory it may not be effective but it is still competitive overall.

What's hurting the cent star most is Gate shifting trees and tau no longer being battle brothers.

That said, I'm looking at UM as a lovely swiss army knife for SM lists. Facing guard? Get in their face, snap off assault doctrine, start punching. Any assaulting force? Get into the shooting sweet spot and hit the twin linked button. Mobile armies, lots of invisibility or FMCs? Dev doctrine to move your big guns or re roll snap shots. Flexibility is the name of the game.

Bal4eva wrote:
I'm not sure what you're adding to get it over 1000pts but you can make it very useful for less and if you are saying something isn't competitive because it isn't the most broken unit in the game then that is an unfair definition. Vs demon factory it may not be effective but it is still competitive overall.

So you are correct I was off on points, my bad. You can make it very useful for less but my point was that it was so powerful because of what the current meta was. Now, while still powerful is not as optimal as I predict the meta is going to shift more towards MSU approaches.

Is it rules legal to put marines in a Valkyrie now?

 ultimentra wrote:
Is it rules legal to put marines in a Valkyrie now?

yes!