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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Why not both??

I have no problem with people doing both. I just think it should not feel anywhere near a requirement to learn self-defense for women, just like it is not a requirement for men. But then again, I come from a different culture from most users, one where people do not feel like they need to carry a gun to be safe, and I would be extremely pissed if things would worsen that much that I started needing one to feel safe. So my perspective on self-defense may be quite different.

I disagree. Knowing how to defend yourself is very important, not just to prevent sexual assault, but any other kind of assault, robbery, etc. I would actually quite like it if self-defence was taught to a minimum level in schools.

 -Shrike- wrote:

I disagree. Knowing how to defend yourself is very important, not just to prevent sexual assault, but any other kind of assault, robbery, etc. I would actually quite like it if self-defence was taught to a minimum level in schools.

This, so, so, so many times. I would have been killed at the age of 19 if I did not know how to defend myself and I try my very best to raise awareness for self-defense ever since. I regularly organize self-defense courses at our local schools, at a high school and in our company. Self-defense should be taught in every school as part of any PE lesson.

I get so angry when some politicians seriously claim that this would be a bad idea because it would create a "negative mindset" among children making them think the world is more dangerous than it is expecting murder in every alley. So angry

 Frazzled wrote:
You never boxed or did martial arts or were in the Army?

Nope. Why? Does that seem unlikely to you?

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Oh, come on. She was asked what we can do to solve the problem of sexual assault on colleges and her response was to train women to defend ourselves. There's so much wrong with that it's hard to know where to start.

Yes, but pedagogy will serve better than aggressiveness .

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Why not both??

I have no problem with people doing both. I just think it should not feel anywhere near a requirement to learn self-defense for women, just like it is not a requirement for men. But then again, I come from a different culture from most users, one where people do not feel like they need to carry a gun to be safe, and I would be extremely pissed if things would worsen that much that I started needing one to feel safe. So my perspective on self-defense may be quite different.

I disagree. Knowing how to defend yourself is very important, not just to prevent sexual assault, but any other kind of assault, robbery, etc. I would actually quite like it if self-defence was taught to a minimum level in schools.

this +1000.....


seriously, most kids will never, EVER use or need calculus... most kids WILL need to defend themselves in their lives, and even if they do not, learning how builds confidence, and is good old fashioned healthy excercise

I'm kind of in the school of thought of 'get it done yourself'. Learning to defend yourself can give you the assurance that YOU can provide for your safety and not have to wait for some moronic horn-dog to turn over a new leaf.

 -Shrike- wrote:
I disagree. Knowing how to defend yourself is very important, not just to prevent sexual assault, but any other kind of assault, robbery, etc. I would actually quite like it if self-defence was taught to a minimum level in schools.

I am not sure that would work. It may only create some arm run, where the aggressor will still be ahead of the victims. Though it would help against drunk or very stupid aggressors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:
seriously, most kids will never, EVER use or need calculus...

Seriously? Do you not even look at the prices when buying stuff in the supermarket too?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You never boxed or did martial arts or were in the Army?

Nope. Why? Does that seem unlikely to you?

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Oh, come on. She was asked what we can do to solve the problem of sexual assault on colleges and her response was to train women to defend ourselves. There's so much wrong with that it's hard to know where to start.

Yes, but pedagogy will serve better than aggressiveness .

Actually fighting back is a very good way of stopping any type of assault.

You are only going to get attacked if the attacker thinks he can overpower you. if you quickly show that is not the case the bulk of the time they'll turn tail and run(because criminals are almost exclusively cowards) and look for easier prey.

Nobody is saying self-defense classes should be a requirement. Its just a damn good idea, and you'd be very stupid not to take one.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Liberals think its better to be a victim than to defend yourself so when Ms. Nevada said women should learn to defend themselves, they freak out and ignore that despite laws, crimes still happen.

That is an extremely offensive remark.

Both the Brady campaign and Moms Demand Action (two prominent Left Wing organizations) believe it is better to be raped than to defend yourself. I don't see how repeating what they say publicly is offensive. In Australia and Japan they even have knife control, like gun control. Limiting the means to defend oneself is the same as limiting the right. If I misunderstood their position then they should have made it clearer.

 easysauce wrote:


if the problem is that we are not telling men not to rape people, then logically, when someone in a relationship says "no stop that, you are raping me" they would stop it... yet that is not what happens in date rape cases, the rapist, despite being told to stop, continues...

hence why actually being ABLE to stop it is quite important.

Or even, quite a bit of the time, the person who is assaulted is blacked out (whether it be by drinking too much, or has been slipped a mickey)... I may be wrong, but IIRC the courts have said that being incapable of providing consent is basically the same as not providing it and/or "saying no"

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You never boxed or did martial arts or were in the Army?

Nope. Why? Does that seem unlikely to you?

Yes actually. No wrestling either? How else are you going to fight off cave bears?

 easysauce wrote:
if you knee you date in the balls, that stops the date rape much better then doing nothing, letting him rape you, and then trying to prosecute him after the fact.

you can still knee him in the balls, run, avoid being raped, and still prosecute him for attempted rape.

Okay have you ever paid any attention to how cases related to rape go? How basically your suggestion would end up with your date (who you better hope isn't on the sportsball team) slandering you to heaven and back while every aspect of your private life is combed over to find "proof" of how horrible you are and you get utterly socially ostracised and then in the end there's a high chance nothing will happen to him anyway?

This is why focusing on women's behaviour is bad, because there is so much wrong with how our society views and deals with sexual assault that it just cannot be solved by any action we can take. The only way to make a significant difference to it is to change the culture around it. We can take all the self defense classes we want, but they won't solve the problem because there are other reasons that "punch him in the balls" do not work.

Come on. You think avoiding rape is so simple and that for some reason we won't follow this one simple step, punching him in the balls, that would solve all sexual assault?

 Grey Templar wrote:

You are only going to get attacked if the attacker thinks he can overpower you. if you quickly show that is not the case the bulk of the time they'll turn tail and run(because criminals are almost exclusively cowards) and look for easier prey.

Except most sexual assault is not committed by men jumping out of bushes at night. Most sexual assault is committed by friends, acquaintances, lovers. And I don't mean friends, acquaintances or lovers jumping out of bushes at night, either.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Actually fighting back is a very good way of stopping any type of assault.

Yeah. If I can go safely without fear of getting assaulted in the first place, that is even better than repelling an attack through fighting back, though.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nobody is saying self-defense classes should be a requirement.

I said it should not feel like one. I meant that you should be able to go around without fear of being assaulted. I know I go around a lot without fear from being assaulted. I wish more people could share that very nice feeling.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Good god that's a horrible ad.

o.O

I said it should not feel like one. I meant that you should be able to go around without fear of being assaulted. I know I go around a lot without fear from being assaulted. I wish more people could share that very nice feeling.

Ignorance is bliss.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Except most sexual assault is not committed by men jumping out of bushes at night. Most sexual assault is committed by friends, acquaintances, lovers. And I don't mean friends, acquaintances or lovers jumping out of bushes at night, either.

If only self-defense worked against anything else but people jumping out of bushes. Damn it!

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
You never boxed or did martial arts or were in the Army?

Nope. Why? Does that seem unlikely to you?

Yes actually. No wrestling either? How else are you going to fight off cave bears?

No wrestling. Every cave bear I have ever seen has been scared away by my smell and my laser sword.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
The only way to make a significant difference to it is to change the culture around it.

Yes. We ought to do that. I wish I knew how I could help make it happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Ignorance is bliss.

Told me that already. And how I would regret thinking that way. Nothing noteworthy happened since then.

If I went around punching all the men I knew in the balls every time I saw them to ward off sexual assault you'd accuse me of being misandrist. Though I've got to admit it might be pretty effective. Assuming women's prisons have a lower rate of sexual assault than the general population, anyway.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Horrid Brady Ad

I really have to disagree with that Brady Campaign Ad, having worked at women's rehab clinic rape is not something that's over in 30 seconds, most women have their lives severely impacted by rape and some are haunted by the experience for the remainder of their lives. It forever changes the way they relate to men, even with women who are able to work past things it always remains in the back of their mind and it can result in failed marriages and have other dire impact on their family so it greatly impacts those around the victim as well. A huge portion of substance abuse in women is due to causes rooted in sexual assaults. So it's not 30 seconds and over as that ad would suggest. That ad is absolutely horrible as it has no compassion or regard for what the victims of rape actually endure.

Can we please not quote the ad? It's incredibly offensive and unfitting.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Can we please not quote the ad? It's incredibly offensive and unfitting.

Tell me about it... that is just horrible.

Edit: Snopes says it's not from the Brady Campaign.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/bradyad.asp

HiveFleetPlastic, I do not want to be rude or anything, but since you seem to be much more familiar with these issues than I am, maybe you could describe an actual rape/sexual assault scenario, to show more clearly how the mechanics of rape work and how self-defense will not serve ?
I have read about them and got convinced, but I think I have forgotten a bit since .

 Sigvatr wrote:
Can we please not quote the ad? It's incredibly offensive and unfitting.

Agreed... but MWHIstorian was trying to make a point, and a powerful one at that. This is the depth that some anti-gun groups would go.... just like that weird CNN article I posted earlier.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


if the problem is that we are not telling men not to rape people, then logically, when someone in a relationship says "no stop that, you are raping me" they would stop it... yet that is not what happens in date rape cases, the rapist, despite being told to stop, continues...

hence why actually being ABLE to stop it is quite important.

Or even, quite a bit of the time, the person who is assaulted is blacked out (whether it be by drinking too much, or has been slipped a mickey)... I may be wrong, but IIRC the courts have said that being incapable of providing consent is basically the same as not providing it and/or "saying no"

yes exactly, as a victim of date rape myself, neither my ability to defend myself, nor her knowledge that rape is wrong, prevented it from happening.

Had I simply not drank myself into oblivion, the whole thing would have been prevented, not that that takes away from her actions, but I do share at least some of the blame.

that is why not putting yourself in a bad situation, is also important, as is education, as is being able to defend yourself. All three of those things are necessary under the appropriate circumstances, and one will not fix all the problems. Education doesnt stop those that know better but do it anyways, self defence doesnt stop it when you cant defend yourself because you are drunk, and not getting drunk doesnt help you if you have no viable self defence tools or training to over come an aggressor when that is the only option left.

but OFC there will be people that have problems with taking a multi focused approach to all aspects of the problem,

see below.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
if you knee you date in the balls, that stops the date rape much better then doing nothing, letting him rape you, and then trying to prosecute him after the fact.

you can still knee him in the balls, run, avoid being raped, and still prosecute him for attempted rape.

Okay have you ever paid any attention to how cases related to rape go? How basically your suggestion would end up with your date (who you better hope isn't on the sportsball team) slandering you to heaven and back while every aspect of your private life is combed over to find "proof" of how horrible you are and you get utterly socially ostracised and then in the end there's a high chance nothing will happen to him anyway?

This is why focusing on women's behaviour is bad, because there is so much wrong with how our society views and deals with sexual assault that it just cannot be solved by any action we can take. The only way to make a significant difference to it is to change the culture around it. We can take all the self defense classes we want, but they won't solve the problem because there are other reasons that "punch him in the balls" do not work.

Come on. You think avoiding rape is so simple and that for some reason we won't follow this one simple step, punching him in the balls, that would solve all sexual assault?

 Grey Templar wrote:

You are only going to get attacked if the attacker thinks he can overpower you. if you quickly show that is not the case the bulk of the time they'll turn tail and run(because criminals are almost exclusively cowards) and look for easier prey.

Except most sexual assault is not committed by men jumping out of bushes at night. Most sexual assault is committed by friends, acquaintances, lovers. And I don't mean friends, acquaintances or lovers jumping out of bushes at night, either.

for obvious reasons, what you are saying is offensive, judgmental, wrong, and a plethora of negative stuff that I wont list here.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
HiveFleetPlastic, I do not want to be rude or anything, but since you seem to be much more familiar with these issues than I am, maybe you could describe an actual rape/sexual assault scenario, to show more clearly how the mechanics of rape work and how self-defense will not serve ?
I have read about them and got convinced, but I think I have forgotten a bit since .

You'll have to excuse Hybrid, he doesn't relate to the real world. He's secluded far away in a magic land of rainbows were everybody is a bunch of happy hippies and the power of love keeps everyone safe and warm. Their society is far more advanced then it is here on earth as they've evolved past all forms of violence and everyone just shoots happy bubbles at each other.

 easysauce wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


if the problem is that we are not telling men not to rape people, then logically, when someone in a relationship says "no stop that, you are raping me" they would stop it... yet that is not what happens in date rape cases, the rapist, despite being told to stop, continues...

hence why actually being ABLE to stop it is quite important.

Or even, quite a bit of the time, the person who is assaulted is blacked out (whether it be by drinking too much, or has been slipped a mickey)... I may be wrong, but IIRC the courts have said that being incapable of providing consent is basically the same as not providing it and/or "saying no"

yes exactly, as a victim of date rape myself, neither my ability to defend myself, nor her knowledge that rape is wrong, prevented it from happening.

Had I simply not drank myself into oblivion, the whole thing would have been prevented, not that that takes away from her actions, but I do share at least some of the blame.

Ok, to chime in on my opinion, as a victim of rape, as well as a member of the US Armed Forces who has undergone dozens of training sessions on how as a man, I am a rapist, lets just make this clear.

There is no black or white answer.

The majority of rapes/sexual assaults are date rapes. Self-Defense would in most cases never come up because the levels of booze involved just prevents it. That being said, saying that self-defense training is not an answer... is just absolutely foolish. In my case, it may have saved me from the nightmare I suffered. It may have saved the thousands of other victims. And even if not, there is never a negative to learning to defend yourself physically. As has been stated, it helps to build self confidence, it is great exercise, and it can be used in plenty of situations if ever necessary.

Learning to defend yourself will not keep you completely safe from being assaulted, but it could stop some. Teaching men to change their outlook in life will not stop all assaults from occuring, but it could stop some. So, as for the original discussion of the topic, the people attacking the women are idiots, who while being partially correct in their point, are wrong overall.

 djones520 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Can we please not quote the ad? It's incredibly offensive and unfitting.

Tell me about it... that is just horrible.

Edit: Snopes says it's not from the Brady Campaign.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/bradyad.asp

I remember that...

Classic he said/she said thing...

A screenshot seemingly showing that same ad posted to the Brady Campaign's Facebook page, and a photo of monitor displaying a similar image, have also been widely circulated and touted as evidence that the Brady Campaign did in fact issue the ad but withdrew it due to negative public reaction [see the images]

That'd be one hell of a photoshop to fake the image... unless someone faked that website. Which is possible.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
But then again, I come from a different culture from most users, one where people do not feel like they need to carry a gun to be safe, and I would be extremely pissed if things would worsen that much that I started needing one to feel safe. So my perspective on self-defense may be quite different.

by that logic, since you never needed a condom to feel safe, neither should we...

Wouldn't be that hard Whembly. I could do it in a matter of minutes with MS Paint.

 stanman wrote:
You'll have to excuse Hybrid, he doesn't relate to the real world. He's secluded far away in a magic land of rainbows were everybody is a bunch of happy hippies and the power of love keeps everyone safe and warm. Their society is far more advanced then it is here on earth as they've evolved past all forms of violence and everyone just shoots happy bubbles at each other.

Seems like you are pretty jealous and bitter .

 djones520 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 easysauce wrote:


if the problem is that we are not telling men not to rape people, then logically, when someone in a relationship says "no stop that, you are raping me" they would stop it... yet that is not what happens in date rape cases, the rapist, despite being told to stop, continues...

hence why actually being ABLE to stop it is quite important.

Or even, quite a bit of the time, the person who is assaulted is blacked out (whether it be by drinking too much, or has been slipped a mickey)... I may be wrong, but IIRC the courts have said that being incapable of providing consent is basically the same as not providing it and/or "saying no"

yes exactly, as a victim of date rape myself, neither my ability to defend myself, nor her knowledge that rape is wrong, prevented it from happening.

Had I simply not drank myself into oblivion, the whole thing would have been prevented, not that that takes away from her actions, but I do share at least some of the blame.

Ok, to chime in on my opinion, as a victim of rape, as well as a member of the US Armed Forces who has undergone dozens of training sessions on how as a man, I am a rapist, lets just make this clear.

There is no black or white answer.

The majority of rapes/sexual assaults are date rapes. Self-Defense would in most cases never come up because the levels of booze involved just prevents it. That being said, saying that self-defense training is not an answer... is just absolutely foolish. In my case, it may have saved me from the nightmare I suffered. It may have saved the thousands of other victims. And even if not, there is never a negative to learning to defend yourself physically. As has been stated, it helps to build self confidence, it is great exercise, and it can be used in plenty of situations if ever necessary.

Learning to defend yourself will not keep you completely safe from being assaulted, but it could stop some. Teaching men to change their outlook in life will not stop all assaults from occuring, but it could stop some. So, as for the original discussion of the topic, the people attacking the women are idiots, who while being partially correct in their point, are wrong overall.

you hit the nail on the head DJ, self defence will only help in some cases, same with education, same with cultural solutions, and so on.

no single solution fixes everything, and its never black and white.