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 dayve110 wrote:
For the WS, If it jinks the firepower is lessened drastically, if it fires it's shield its not converting to glances.
You cannot view it as a tank with great firepower + survivability since doing one lessens the other.

3+ cover and converting to glances is awesome, but your then looking at a SL + SC snap-firing. Not that awesome for firepower.

SL + SS + SC firing and then you have an AV12 3HP hull without jink or glance conversion. Not so hard to take down.

Having played Eldar for some time i know i can take them down with almost any well-made army, and have done so in the past.

Thats just one serpent. Remember there is also a whole army behind it which may include more serpents. Not all of them will be jinking (generally speaking) and there are a lot of other nasty things in the army.

Guardians for example are strong in themselves. Their weapon platforms are superior to that of any other race and get them for practically the same price as a guard player gets his slower, less accurate and many other downsides heavy weapon. There is very little in this book that other races can best without it being the main focus. Defend your codex all you want, but that codex is by far the most unpleasant book to fight both casually and competitively and im sure many players will agree.

Instead of fast and weak, you have fast and strong. Instead of being short ranged (somewhat mitigated by speed) you have an array of powerful long range guns. Where you lack you have the cheap ability to cast powers to make up for it. Oddly enough you pay less for more efficient versions of other races weapons such as melta squads and Guardian platforms. the list goes on. I mean, who thought of S4 AP2 flamers on T6 models that auto Penetrate on a roll of 6? Thats nuts.

Im ranting now, but in short, they lack nothing but Close Combat and dont have to pay for their efficiency, durability and speed.

krodarklorr wrote:
To be frank with you guys, I hate Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines. I just do. Eldar and Tau, mainly just because of how obnoxious and unnecessarily powerful their codexes are. But my friend like to argue with just about anything I say, and he thinks that IG is the most powerful codex right now. He also doesn't believe Eldar and Tau are that bad, and that everyone just overreacts. I told him that IG would have nothing against Eldar, but he disagrees. What do you guys think? Am I wrong for assuming Eldar would roflstomp the new IG codex?

Shame this is turning into a ranting thread bashing Eldar, what point limit do you guys play at and what are the list you both typically bring? Does he like bringing tons of Wraith units with aspect warrior support or does he run a more vehicle based army with guardian support?

It is a debate about who is more powerful, IG or eldar. That is what we have stuck to by explaining how OP eldar are. Hiding in a hole and pretending it isnt so wont change the fact... they have enough ignores cover in a serp spam :-p.

Just out of curiosity, does the earthshaker cannon still ignore cover? couldnt 3 of those do a number on a bunch of wave serpents lined up, which is how 90% of eldar players deploy them? Aren't those cannons still S9AP2, ordinance, barrage, ignore cover with a range of 3 counties??

The earthshaker doesn't ignore cover. It ignores intervening cover due to being barrage, but area terrain and inbuilt cover saves such as jink are not ignored. Also a basilisk or three won't stand a turn against eldar firepower and hidden they are not the most accurate of weapons.
My AM dex isn't with me atm but I could have sworn they are ap3.

Well first of all one of its guns is twin-linked. Now if this is a Scatterlaser, you already get a lot of shots (4).

Secondly, you get even more shots from the serpent shield.

And because you fired your scatterlaser, they are twin-linked too.

In effect this means you can still do some damage with the Wave Serpent IN ADDITION to benefiting from awesome 3+ cover, but the damage you are doing no longer makes your opponent yell unfair (added bonus!), while the sneaky Eldar trickery here is that the new edition has actually given your cargo an even larget boost to survivability. If this means getting your Dire Avengers, your Fire Dragons or your Wraithguard to where you want them to be, hop out, and unleash hell, then your plan has worked!

Couple this with the fact that AP3+ weapons can no longer insta-kill your Wave Serpent even with its shield down, and you'll see why things are just awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The earthshaker doesn't ignore cover. It ignores intervening cover due to being barrage, but area terrain and inbuilt cover saves such as jink are not ignored. Also a basilisk or three won't stand a turn against eldar firepower and hidden they are not the most accurate of weapons.
My AM dex isn't with me atm but I could have sworn they are ap3.

Wow damn this is a nerf.

I just realized that while Ordnance weapons did lose their rule to only be able to affect the topmost occupants of a multi-level ruin, and can now affect anyone under their pie plate; 7th edition has also made sure that you always get a 4+ cover save inside a ruin regardless of the direction the shooting is coming from, so Barrages only effect ADLs, hedges and the like now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, Earthshakers are AP3.

IG dont have any AP2 pie plates in their arsenal except the Medusa and the Demolisher

They have been S9 AP3 for as long as I can remember. Never bene ignores cover though.

Are you playing on an open board with no cover where the serpent also cannot use its long range to keep away from return firepower? Because thats what most eldar players can do if using it to shoot.

You can sit at 60" and just get the shield firing, but if you want the full effect of firepower you must get within 36" to use the laser, 24" if you want to also firing the cannon. If you want to outrange return firepower, you're also loosing alot of your own.

8+D6 S 6/7 shots at 24"
5+D6 S 6/7 shots at 36"
1+D6 S 7 shots at 60"

If using it as a transport to get those Fragons or wraithguard next to my landraider? Unparalleled ability to do so by ANYTHING in the game!

First thing that came to my head, Drop pods? I'm sure they can deliver a tank hunting unit cheaper and safer than a serpent.

Plus if you have a serp SPAM I can realistically only make you jink one or two a turn as otherwise I am spreading my firepower and doing little damage which leads to a very quick defeat.

On average a serpent will do the following amount of hits at these ranges.

24" (normal) = 9.3 hits
24" (snapfire) = 3.2 hits
36" (normal) = 6.6 hits
36" (snapfire) = 2.3 hits
60" (normal) = 2.6 hits
60" (snapfire) = 0.6 hits

As you can see, snapfire is a big reduction.
For instance if your looking at 6 serpents within 24", killing four or forcing all to jink will net you the same amount of firepower reduction (on average)
If your looking at 6 serpents within 36", killing four or forcing all to jink will net you the same amount of firepower reduction (on average)
if your looking at 4 serpents within 60", killing three or forcing all to jink will net you the same amount of firepower reduction (on average)

SPREAD your fire. It is far easier to force them to jink than focus on taking them down (and you will be whittling them down as you do so)
Assuming the serpents fired their shields in the previous turn, if they do not jink, they are just another AV12 hull. So force them to jink.

Lastly don't forget twin linked... your bs is still at a level with an ork even when you jink.

On paper no... snapfire is worse than BS2
In reality with TL yes, but only at 36" or less to get laser lock. And then they arn't dancing outside of your big guns range.

Guardians for example are strong in themselves. Their weapon platforms are superior to that of any other race and get them for practically the same price as a guard player gets his slower, less accurate and many other downsides heavy weapon.

Practically the same price? Really?
IG infantry unit is 55-70 with just a heavy weapon
Guardians are 105-120 with just a weapons platform

IG has option for a special weapon ~10 + a cheap transport (with fire points) 65+ and the ability to fire at 24" with the flashlights
Guardians need to pay 35 for a unit leader, and a transport costs 145

Guardians are better than an IG infantry unit. But they are definetly not practically the same price.

There is very little in this book that other races can best without it being the main focus. Defend your codex all you want, but that codex is by far the most unpleasant book to fight both casually and competitively and im sure many players will agree.
Instead of fast and weak, you have fast and strong. Instead of being short ranged (somewhat mitigated by speed) you have an array of powerful long range guns. Where you lack you have the cheap ability to cast powers to make up for it. Oddly enough you pay less for more efficient versions of other races weapons such as melta squads and Guardian platforms. the list goes on. I mean, who thought of S4 AP2 flamers on T6 models that auto Penetrate on a roll of 6? Thats nuts.

For the most part Eldar infantry is either slow + strong (wraith units) or fast and weak (Everything else at T3)
Majority of their weaponry is considered mid range. 12-18 for most infantry, most bigger weapons being 24-48. shield + prism for instance are longer.

As far as powers go. Once upon a time we chose our powers and had ~98% change to cast them. Then in 6th they were random but still high %.
In 7th they are further nerfed. The farseer cannot be inside a vehicle to cast and it will be more difficult to get as many powers as you did previously (just go look at the many threads detailing the math behind it) and you have the oppertunity to deny a blessing by throwing your dice at fortune of something.

As far as those flamers are considered that unit of 5 costs a comparable amount to terminators. Arguable who is more durable (depends on the weapon aiming at them to be honest) but both WG and Termies can mess things up, put either one in the right place and it'll be messy.

And ok, FD are better than melta vets, thats a given. But Eldar specialise. Point out where else i can get melta barring HQ choices. Then point out how many units can take a melta options in IG or SM.

Well first of all one of its guns is twin-linked. Now if this is a Scatterlaser, you already get a lot of shots (4).

Secondly, you get even more shots from the serpent shield.

And because you fired your scatterlaser, they are twin-linked too.

In effect this means you can still do some damage with the Wave Serpent IN ADDITION to benefiting from awesome 3+ cover

Some damage. you get a 2/3 cover save but loose 2/3 of your firepower (TL included). Seems like a fair trade.

Couple this with the fact that AP3+ weapons can no longer insta-kill your Wave Serpent even with its shield down, and you'll see why things are just awesome.

Were Eldar the only army to recieve that buff? All vehicles got a buff.

The trick with eldar is to oppose them philosophically.

They are fast, low toughness, anti infantry with amazing specialties. (Knights and such)

First off, use a damn imperial knight. They are awesome and can fill a gap you would otherwise need to fill with anti tank armor.

Second, eldar basic weapons SHRED infantry, even the new taurox will be better then nothing.

Finally your first turn? Declare an attempt for night fighting and move as fast as possible. Do not bother shooting. If you are mech, eldar are going to have to deal with that first which is not the preferred load out. If you have a knight even better.

By covering the board on turn one you deny the eldar an advantage, space. By denying them infantry you negate their expensive shooting attacks.

Tldr.....use a fifth ed guard army.

They are both strong books, but I sort of feel the Tau are a bit stronger. However I can see the Eldar's strength with its psyker support mostly.. I'll agree the serpent seems a bit much and I stopped using the two I had from 5th when I saw what they did to some poor Tyranids in 6th.

krodarklorr wrote:
To be frank with you guys, I hate Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines. I just do. Eldar and Tau, mainly just because of how obnoxious and unnecessarily powerful their codexes are. But my friend like to argue with just about anything I say, and he thinks that IG is the most powerful codex right now. He also doesn't believe Eldar and Tau are that bad, and that everyone just overreacts. I told him that IG would have nothing against Eldar, but he disagrees. What do you guys think? Am I wrong for assuming Eldar would roflstomp the new IG codex?

Depends, spam lists like 4-6 or even 7 Wave Serpents is pretty sick to play against. A seerstar is very sick and has almost not drawback. Do you expect every eldar player to play those lists? Howabout every game? Probably not, I play at most 3 waveserpents and refuse to play a seerstar. A game between a good IG list and MY Eldar should be pretty close.

As for most powerful codex, my vote is still Deamons. Most tournaments will probably either rewrite the force organization and composition rules, maybe even the allied matrix to even things out. At least thats the rumor, although I have heard nothing 100%.


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 sfshilo wrote:
First off, use a damn imperial knight. They are awesome and can fill a gap you would otherwise need to fill with anti tank armor.

Second, eldar basic weapons SHRED infantry, even the new taurox will be better then nothing.

Most people refuse to play against super-heavies even if it is allowed by 7th edition.

List building do not help people during tournaments, they tend to make them weak against other armies.

 dayve110 wrote:

Are you playing on an open board with no cover where the serpent also cannot use its long range to keep away from return firepower? Because thats what most eldar players can do if using it to shoot.

You can sit at 60" and just get the shield firing, but if you want the full effect of firepower you must get within 36" to use the laser, 24" if you want to also firing the cannon. If you want to outrange return firepower, you're also loosing alot of your own.

8+D6 S 6/7 shots at 24"
5+D6 S 6/7 shots at 36"
1+D6 S 7 shots at 60"

If using it as a transport to get those Fragons or wraithguard next to my landraider? Unparalleled ability to do so by ANYTHING in the game!

First thing that came to my head, Drop pods? I'm sure they can deliver a tank hunting unit cheaper and safer than a serpent.

Plus if you have a serp SPAM I can realistically only make you jink one or two a turn as otherwise I am spreading my firepower and doing little damage which leads to a very quick defeat.

On average a serpent will do the following amount of hits at these ranges.

24" (normal) = 9.3 hits
24" (snapfire) = 3.2 hits
36" (normal) = 6.6 hits
36" (snapfire) = 2.3 hits
60" (normal) = 2.6 hits
60" (snapfire) = 0.6 hits

As you can see, snapfire is a big reduction.
For instance if your looking at 6 serpents within 24", killing four or forcing all to jink will net you the same amount of firepower reduction (on average)
If your looking at 6 serpents within 36", killing four or forcing all to jink will net you the same amount of firepower reduction (on average)
if your looking at 4 serpents within 60", killing three or forcing all to jink will net you the same amount of firepower reduction (on average)

SPREAD your fire. It is far easier to force them to jink than focus on taking them down (and you will be whittling them down as you do so)
Assuming the serpents fired their shields in the previous turn, if they do not jink, they are just another AV12 hull. So force them to jink.

Lastly don't forget twin linked... your bs is still at a level with an ork even when you jink.

On paper no... snapfire is worse than BS2
In reality with TL yes, but only at 36" or less to get laser lock. And then they arn't dancing outside of your big guns range.

Guardians for example are strong in themselves. Their weapon platforms are superior to that of any other race and get them for practically the same price as a guard player gets his slower, less accurate and many other downsides heavy weapon.

Practically the same price? Really?
IG infantry unit is 55-70 with just a heavy weapon
Guardians are 105-120 with just a weapons platform

IG has option for a special weapon ~10 + a cheap transport (with fire points) 65+ and the ability to fire at 24" with the flashlights
Guardians need to pay 35 for a unit leader, and a transport costs 145

Guardians are better than an IG infantry unit. But they are definetly not practically the same price.

There is very little in this book that other races can best without it being the main focus. Defend your codex all you want, but that codex is by far the most unpleasant book to fight both casually and competitively and im sure many players will agree.
Instead of fast and weak, you have fast and strong. Instead of being short ranged (somewhat mitigated by speed) you have an array of powerful long range guns. Where you lack you have the cheap ability to cast powers to make up for it. Oddly enough you pay less for more efficient versions of other races weapons such as melta squads and Guardian platforms. the list goes on. I mean, who thought of S4 AP2 flamers on T6 models that auto Penetrate on a roll of 6? Thats nuts.

For the most part Eldar infantry is either slow + strong (wraith units) or fast and weak (Everything else at T3)
Majority of their weaponry is considered mid range. 12-18 for most infantry, most bigger weapons being 24-48. shield + prism for instance are longer.

As far as powers go. Once upon a time we chose our powers and had ~98% change to cast them. Then in 6th they were random but still high %.
In 7th they are further nerfed. The farseer cannot be inside a vehicle to cast and it will be more difficult to get as many powers as you did previously (just go look at the many threads detailing the math behind it) and you have the oppertunity to deny a blessing by throwing your dice at fortune of something.

As far as those flamers are considered that unit of 5 costs a comparable amount to terminators. Arguable who is more durable (depends on the weapon aiming at them to be honest) but both WG and Termies can mess things up, put either one in the right place and it'll be messy.

And ok, FD are better than melta vets, thats a given. But Eldar specialise. Point out where else i can get melta barring HQ choices. Then point out how many units can take a melta options in IG or SM.

Well first of all one of its guns is twin-linked. Now if this is a Scatterlaser, you already get a lot of shots (4).

Secondly, you get even more shots from the serpent shield.

And because you fired your scatterlaser, they are twin-linked too.

In effect this means you can still do some damage with the Wave Serpent IN ADDITION to benefiting from awesome 3+ cover

Some damage. you get a 2/3 cover save but loose 2/3 of your firepower (TL included). Seems like a fair trade.

Couple this with the fact that AP3+ weapons can no longer insta-kill your Wave Serpent even with its shield down, and you'll see why things are just awesome.

Were Eldar the only army to recieve that buff? All vehicles got a buff.

My point is they don't have to jink if you have decent terrain on your board, they will still get a cover save. And if they have to then spreading my firepower to force more to jink helps the eldar in the long run as then I haven't actually used enough firepower to kill any. I wont have as much firepower next turn to force as many to jink as I will have been whittled down by the rest of the eldar list.

Drop pods are a totally different story - if spamming them you are splitting your forces in two which benefite the opponent. If only taking 1 or 3, then if they fail on the drop to take out a serp the serp can just skim away out of range and they are left picking their noses. A serp can continue to nip around unlike an automatically immobilised drop pod. Also they are easier to bubble wrap against as you only really need to keep the bubble wrap in place for turn 1, maybe turn 2. The serps on the other hand can wait around until they have a clear path.

36" is a nice range to sit at, safe from assault and rapid fire/ many high rof weapons.

 dayve110 wrote:
I don't get the whole Eldar hate thing... Sure they have alot of good units, but usually people list a bunch of crap that Eldar can do, without really mentioning that you CANNOT take ALL of it in any reasonably pointed game.

Mass WS arn't cheap (5 is over 700 points, without the units inside)
FD arn't cheap (110 for 5 with no upgrades)
WG arn't cheap (420 for 10 with scythes)
WL arn't cheap (~140)
WK arn't cheap (240+)

Can you fit all that in and still make room a 400-600 points jetseer unit?

Um, A Wraithlord is W3 and T8, and has heavy weapons. For 140-160 points, that's obnoxiously cheap.

- True, they don't have to jink if they can get cover. But you cannot argue a point while assuming WS get all the benefits of chance while you get none. It's just as likely you'll get your own cover from everything in the Eldar list bar the shields. Also, WS spam (as in 5-6+ WS) is very hard to get everything in cover, firstly it's a skimmer and sits a chunk higher than most other tanks, it's footprint is a god aweful shape and it's pretty tricky to manage to get 6 or so all in good cover while having good angles of fire.

- As for spreading fire... try it more often.
Assume 6 serpents, if you manage to kill 1, the other 5 will return ~33 hits back to you.
If you manage to cause them all to jink, its ~13 hits back.
(at 36")
Thats assuming the snapfiring serpents are also firing their shields, which is unlikely, so expect ~7 hits back.

-If your facing 6 serpents... there isn't much of a "rest of the army" to return fire back to you. 6 serps will cost ~1200 with 5 DA inside each. If you want decent units inside you won't get a hell of a lot else in your list.
If you are facing 2-4 then they arn't as big of a threat. Make them jink then blow apart the less durable elements.

- Remember you will be causing some HP damage when spreading, and while you will take some casualties next turn, the WS now have less HP and will be easier to knock down. Also every one that just fired its shields is an easier target.

- Cast a net and restrict their movement, if they want to stay at 36" you can easily limit how much table space they have to move around in.
Provide multiple threats. Imperials have something Eldar do not. Diversity within units. You can spread special and heavy around like candy and provide a significant threat radius with multiple units.
Keep them jinking, limit their firepower long enough so you can get into a position to land a killing blow. (Unless you are playing static gunline, which you really shouldn't)

- Drop pods are different yes, but WS was described as having an unparalleled ability to get melta next to a LR. Was pointing out drop pods can also do that.

- 36" is a nice range to sit at, and you are indeed out of assault range and rapid fire range (as if rapid fire would do much to AV12 in most cases). But by no means are you out of harms ways, many (not all) high rof weapons able to harm AV12 have a 36" range or better.

- I just don't know... I play Eldar alot, and know it can be strong, but i also know where it is weak. Perhaps that is why i've manged to beat Eldar lists with my own Eldar, SM, CSM, Orks and DE in the past. They can be beaten, sometimes rather easily, but you arn't going to do it by lining up on your board edge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

krodarklorr wrote:
Um, A Wraithlord is W3 and T8, and has heavy weapons. For 140-160 points, that's obnoxiously cheap.

It's 140 points for a slow unit, with less firepower than the equivalent points of walkers
Thats also 140 with a shurican cannon and glaive btw. If you want a decent one with twin lances/lasers its 160.
180 for 2 missile launchers, but i rarely see that set up.

3 wounds is peanuts with the big MC's around today, plenty of nasties with 5-6 wounds for not much more points.
Anything wounding it reliably will also negate its 3+ save and it has no invun. Compare to nemesis or any other MC that can have access to 2+ and/or an invun save.
1-2 rounds from a LF unit will blow it away, 2+ or an invul make other MC's more expensive because a 2+ or invul on an MC is that good.
It's also pretty slow, Plently of jump or flying MC's out pace it. WL doesn't get battle focus either.

 dayve110 wrote:
- True, they don't have to jink if they can get cover. But you cannot argue a point while assuming WS get all the benefits of chance while you get none. It's just as likely you'll get your own cover from everything in the Eldar list bar the shields. Also, WS spam (as in 5-6+ WS) is very hard to get everything in cover, firstly it's a skimmer and sits a chunk higher than most other tanks, it's footprint is a god aweful shape and it's pretty tricky to manage to get 6 or so all in good cover while having good angles of fire.

- As for spreading fire... try it more often.
Assume 6 serpents, if you manage to kill 1, the other 5 will return ~33 hits back to you.
If you manage to cause them all to jink, its ~13 hits back.
(at 36")
Thats assuming the snapfiring serpents are also firing their shields, which is unlikely, so expect ~7 hits back.

-If your facing 6 serpents... there isn't much of a "rest of the army" to return fire back to you. 6 serps will cost ~1200 with 5 DA inside each. If you want decent units inside you won't get a hell of a lot else in your list.
If you are facing 2-4 then they arn't as big of a threat. Make them jink then blow apart the less durable elements.

- Remember you will be causing some HP damage when spreading, and while you will take some casualties next turn, the WS now have less HP and will be easier to knock down. Also every one that just fired its shields is an easier target.

- Cast a net and restrict their movement, if they want to stay at 36" you can easily limit how much table space they have to move around in.
Provide multiple threats. Imperials have something Eldar do not. Diversity within units. You can spread special and heavy around like candy and provide a significant threat radius with multiple units.
Keep them jinking, limit their firepower long enough so you can get into a position to land a killing blow. (Unless you are playing static gunline, which you really shouldn't)

- Drop pods are different yes, but WS was described as having an unparalleled ability to get melta next to a LR. Was pointing out drop pods can also do that.

- 36" is a nice range to sit at, and you are indeed out of assault range and rapid fire range (as if rapid fire would do much to AV12 in most cases). But by no means are you out of harms ways, many (not all) high rof weapons able to harm AV12 have a 36" range or better.

- I just don't know... I play Eldar alot, and know it can be strong, but i also know where it is weak. Perhaps that is why i've manged to beat Eldar lists with my own Eldar, SM, CSM, Orks and DE in the past. They can be beaten, sometimes rather easily, but you arn't going to do it by lining up on your board edge.


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krodarklorr wrote:
Um, A Wraithlord is W3 and T8, and has heavy weapons. For 140-160 points, that's obnoxiously cheap.

It's 140 points for a slow unit, with less firepower than the equivalent points of walkers
Thats also 140 with a shurican cannon and glaive btw. If you want a decent one with twin lances/lasers its 160.
180 for 2 missile launchers, but i rarely see that set up.

3 wounds is peanuts with the big MC's around today, plenty of nasties with 5-6 wounds for not much more points.
Anything wounding it reliably will also negate its 3+ save and it has no invun. Compare to nemesis or any other MC that can have access to 2+ and/or an invun save.
1-2 rounds from a LF unit will blow it away, 2+ or an invul make other MC's more expensive because a 2+ or invul on an MC is that good.
It's also pretty slow, Plently of jump or flying MC's out pace it. WL doesn't get battle focus either.

I do tend to try and limit their movement by crowding them but they are still notoriously hard to pin down.
I will do as you say and spread my fire in my next game against a serp spam. I cant properly agree or criticize it until I have tried it. It just seems counter intuitive to me. You could be right though.
Still consider serps completely OP though :-p.

Dude, T8 is HUGE. I'm pretty sure that literally -every- Nids player, including myself, would literally kill to have their MC's be T8 across the board. T8 is basically equivilant to AV12, -plus- you get an armor save against stuff, or cover from what is inevitably yet another breakdancing wraithlord/knight. Eldar is easy mode, plain and simple. I haven't had a chance to see the new IG stuff yet so I cant really pay heed to their utility. Once thing to remember is that a LRBT is still a LRBT at the end of the day, and eldar S6 spam will die a horrible death to a bunch of Russes.

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It's 140 points for a slow unit, with less firepower than the equivalent points of walkers
Thats also 140 with a shurican cannon and glaive btw. If you want a decent one with twin lances/lasers its 160.
180 for 2 missile launchers, but i rarely see that set up.

3 wounds is peanuts with the big MC's around today, plenty of nasties with 5-6 wounds for not much more points.
Anything wounding it reliably will also negate its 3+ save and it has no invun. Compare to nemesis or any other MC that can have access to 2+ and/or an invun save.
1-2 rounds from a LF unit will blow it away, 2+ or an invul make other MC's more expensive because a 2+ or invul on an MC is that good.
It's also pretty slow, Plently of jump or flying MC's out pace it. WL doesn't get battle focus either.

Yeah, but 140 points for something that most of my army (Necrons) can't touch. Plus, keep him in cover with the new ruin rules and shoot Bright lances at things. It will most likely never die.

Poly Ranger wrote:I do tend to try and limit their movement by crowding them but they are still notoriously hard to pin down.
I will do as you say and spread my fire in my next game against a serp spam. I cant properly agree or criticize it until I have tried it. It just seems counter intuitive to me. You could be right though.
Still consider serps completely OP though :-p.

Leave them with limited options.
Stay still? Meltavets coming in soon.
Boost left? Theres a unit able to charge you if you head that way.
Boost right? Into firing lines of something nasty.
etc.

Spreading can go several ways, the Eldar player may catch on to what you are doing, you may be able to take advantage of this.
Fire some missiles as WS A, it jinks, you score a HP maybe
Move to next, fire some LC as WS B, it jinks, you score a HP maybe.
Move to next, fire some AC as WS C, he catches on, does not jink. Likely score a HP.
WS C did not jink, fire more stuff !! Might kill it, might make it jink with further shots. If the player refuses to jink, pound them some. If you shake or stun move along.

Remember it's still only a 3+ save, have you seen how fast marines can die? If the WS are being used as gunboats they wont be able to downgrade that pen that will eventually get through.

StarHunter25 wrote:Dude, T8 is HUGE. I'm pretty sure that literally -every- Nids player, including myself, would literally kill to have their MC's be T8 across the board. T8 is basically equivilant to AV12, -plus- you get an armor save against stuff, or cover from what is inevitably yet another breakdancing wraithlord/knight. Eldar is easy mode, plain and simple. I haven't had a chance to see the new IG stuff yet so I cant really pay heed to their utility. Once thing to remember is that a LRBT is still a LRBT at the end of the day, and eldar S6 spam will die a horrible death to a bunch of Russes.

MC's have to have variety between armies, you must focus on the good and the bad of each one to compare them properly. Nid's get their own unique MC toys which makes them better in other ways besides toughness, including being generally faster, more killy, some can fly, have psychic powers, etc etc etc. T8 or not, you put fire into it and it will die, also 3+ Sv on T8 rarely comes into play when the weapon of choice is high Str low AP weaponry to take it down.

Calling anything easy mode is just silly and smacks of some underlying resentment for that thing in particular. Nothing is point and click, there are no iwin buttons. Everything has counters and any decently designed list can beat another, i previously mentioned beating Eldar with DE and with Orks... Possibly the easiest match-ups for Mech Eldar. But it's still possible and it does happen.

krodarklorr wrote:but 140 points for something that most of my army (Necrons) can't touch. Plus, keep him in cover with the new ruin rules and shoot Bright lances at things. It will most likely never die.

Something that you cannot hurt with your most basic weapon? This is what holding a boltgun feels like while looking at a tank.
Necrons are pretty strong atm and you should be more than capable of stripping away serpents HP's and laying waste to Eldar infantry quite easily, even with your basic gauss.
If one WL with 2 lances is causing you grief move away from it, its 36" and nowhere near as mobile as you can be, you can easily get cover especially if its hiding in its own ruin for a cover save.

 dayve110 wrote:


Calling anything easy mode is just silly and smacks of some underlying resentment for that thing in particular. Nothing is point and click, there are no iwin buttons. Everything has counters and any decently designed list can beat another, i previously mentioned beating Eldar with DE and with Orks... Possibly the easiest match-ups for Mech Eldar. But it's still possible and it does happen.

While you are right to say nothing is point and click the easy mode comment is valid to some extent. Eldar get a lot of advantages in their units often with few disadvantages. The majority of their units are vastly superior to their equivalents by piling on special rules with not very significant price increases. Eldar can also easily dominate the psychic phase and have access to the best powers. They also have the best vehicle in the game, good to great monstrous creatures and every units has superior mobility, which is key in the new 7th edition mission sets.

The Wave Serpent is the biggest problem and a perfect example. It is the best vehicle in the game right now and is stronger than most tanks. The jink change is actually a HUGE buff to the wave serpent. +3 cover with holo-fields is no joke. Only a few armies can really muster reliable ignore cover and usually it is not on anti-tank. Guard is one of those armies, but there are still significant disadvantages to guard that off set that (low BS skill, reliance on an order, weakness of platforms). Eldar on the other hand has the ignore cover on the wave serpent with a very effective light tank weapon. Thanks to the scatter laser, it can almost ignore the jink penalty. Since transports are so key it is pretty much a given to take wave serpents anyway. It is one of the few units in the game that literally has no downside.

It used to be said that Eldar were a specialist players army that required a lot of finesse. That is no longer the case, they have so many great choices now that are very durable and hard hitting. Worse still, they are all ignored in favor of the spam units. You will always find that same thing now, which is Wave Serpent spam or Jetbike stars with the occasional Wraithknight with war walkers thrown in. No one uses falcons, fire prisms, or vipers. Eldar players I have seen that lose, just add in more Wave Serpents. (i have played against three recently that seem to keep progressively adding more to their lists). So while you can say there is no such thing as easy mode, Eldar is certainly no longer the pricey specialist focused army it used to be and is now a special rule heavy power house army that is easy to use.

EDIT: Me fail english? That unpossible!

if someone jinks just because your firing a single las in to his WS , then he probably doesn't play the game much.

nedTCM wrote:While you are right to say nothing is point and click the easy mode comment is valid to some extent. Eldar get a lot of advantages in their units often with few disadvantages. The majority of their units are vastly superior to their equivalents by piling on special rules with not very significant price increases. Eldar can also easily dominate the psychic phase and have access to the best powers. They also have the best vehicle in the game, good to great monstrous creatures and every units has superior mobility, which is key in the new 7th edition mission sets.

The Wave Serpent is the biggest problem and a perfect example. It is the best vehicle in the game right now and is stronger than most tanks. The jink change is actually a HUGE buff to the wave serpent. +3 cover with holo-fields is no joke. Only a few armies can really muster reliable ignore cover and usually it is not on anti-tank. Guard is one of those armies, but there are still significant disadvantages to guard that off set that (low BS skill, reliance on an order, weakness of platforms). Eldar on the other hand has the ignore cover on the wave serpent with a very effective light tank weapon. Thanks to the scatter laser, it can almost ignore the jink penalty. Since transports are so key it is pretty much a given to take wave serpents anyway. It is one of the few units in the game that literally has no downside.

It used to be said that Eldar were a specialist players army that required a lot of finesse. That is no longer the case, they have so many great choices now that are very durable and hard hitting. Worse still, they are all ignored in favor of the spam units. You will always find that same thing now, which is Wave Serpent spam or Jetbike stars with the occasional Wraithknight with war walkers thrown in. No one uses falcons, fire prisms, or vipers. Eldar players I have seen that lose, just add in more Wave Serpents. (i have played against three recently that seem to keep progressively adding more to their lists). So while you can say there is no such thing as easy mode, Eldar is certainly no longer the pricey specialist focused army it used to be and is now a special rule heavy power house army that is easy to use.

To some extent, i agree, they are alot better than previous editions. But i think that is mostly down to the serpent shield. Not a while lot has changed besides that and battle focus from the last dex.
Eldar specialists are possibly some of the best in the game, but then their role is defined. Other armies can hand out anti-tank weaponry to many units including basic troops. It's just a different style.
Dominating the psychic phase is possible with a council or alot of dispersed warlocks, but as a unit they are expensive, as dispersed thats alot of points put into guardians, or purchase several spiritseers to split up. Either way, if you want all that psy power you'r paying for it and getting less of everything else.
Best vehicles? quite possibly. Would that still be the case without the current shield? There wasn't much hate for WS before they increased their offensive ability.

Jink is a nerf.
Previously 4+ cover while mantaining full firepower... 50% save + 100% firepower
Currently 3+ cover while maintaining one third firepower... 67% save + 33% firepower

Current jink is MUCH more fair than previous. But again, would it be such a big deal without the offensive shield?

Compare to previous. Eldar psychic powers used to be alot better, you could pick them and have a ~98% chance of success. Old holo-fields were OBSCENE, Falcons could take on hell of a beating. Vypers and bikes were viewed as too expensive compared to durability. All in all the majority of changes that Eldar have gone through were slight adjustments (up AND down) nothing over the top, and some fleshing out of rules. Majority of rules were already there and just tweaked, although wraith units got alot more options. The only major change was to the WS.

Eldar have gone from a finesse army to almost auto-win in your opinion, but looking at the changes over 3 codex's the main offender is the WS. Alot still runs on the basic principles that it used to, with similar rules to the previous dex.
If the WS was as it was previously, would you still hold the same opinions?

Makumba wrote:if someone jinks just because your firing a single las in to his WS , then he probably doesn't play the game much.

So when do you jink? You need to decide before rolls to hit, a lascannon gets fired, do you jink or not? Your likely to have already fired off your shield so if it hits it do significant damage.
If you don't jink, what about a second las? Then what about a third?
Everytime they don't jink is free damage, so take advantage of it until they DO jink. Once they jink their firepower is cut so move on.

 dayve110 wrote:

Eldar specialists are possibly some of the best in the game, but then their role is defined. Other armies can hand out anti-tank weaponry to many units including basic troops. It's just a different style.
Dominating the psychic phase is possible with a council or alot of dispersed warlocks, but as a unit they are expensive, as dispersed thats alot of points put into guardians, or purchase several spiritseers to split up. Either way, if you want all that psy power you'r paying for it and getting less of everything else.
Best vehicles? quite possibly. Would that still be the case without the current shield? There wasn't much hate for WS before they increased their offensive ability.

Jink is a nerf.
Previously 4+ cover while mantaining full firepower... 50% save + 100% firepower
Currently 3+ cover while maintaining one third firepower... 67% save + 33% firepower

I don't think eldar are OP, but they are probably the strongest army and are one that is very easy to use now note this is my main argument with my post. Focusing on your core arguments in your reply.

They do have some down sides as you have pointed out, but there is still a difference between them and other armies. The Eldar have their own psy trees to roll on that contain powers that are far better than BRB powers (except for troll invisibility). Guide and Conceal are both very strong and within each tree are super powered spells like fortune, doom, or protect which are always good. An eldar psyker will always have a great set of powers. In addition, you can generate 6 psy points with just two far seers, which is already far ahead in the psychic phase than most armies before warlocks even are considered and for cheaper. Having a farseer also gives the benefits of having deny the witch, a strong leadership score and exhausting an HQ requirement. It should be like this because that is a fluffy eldar strength, but it is better than other armies by a lot. It is like this around the board for eldar units. Yes you are paying extra, but frequently you are only paying a few pennies.

The reason Jink is a buff is because you have focused solely on the change to fire power and not to survivability. The power of the AV system is that certain weapons can never actually hurt you. Even in an army like Tau or guard that can extend ignore cover to certain units, there are still only so many weapons to bring that can actually reliably get a hit on AV 12. The majority of the time you are getting a 3+ save, which is a huge boost in survivability to the point that you can basically use the serpent shield for firepower whenever you need to. Jinking restricts it, but with the scatter laser you are still getting a few strength 7 hits in every turn. In addition, the name of the game now isn't always just flat out killing units. It is about moving and scoring objectives. The WS harder to kill means the eldar getting way more VP each turn. It means it is more likely to drop off cargo that can kill other light units and get away unscathed. The most I have ever faced is 4 wave serpents in one game. And it is hard to even score a hit on one even with concentrated firepower. Honestly, it is to the point where I have less trouble with a land raider, because at least I know where I stand with those and usually you only face one.

And people are bringing more than 4.

Eldar are alot easier to use than previous incarnations, that's a given. I think any decent player hoping on the Eldar bandwagon will perform alright with them, but still make some mistakes or bad plays but still perform to an alright degree. Anyone who can spot the mistakes tho can easily capitalise on those and punish the Eldar player. However i think if you play any decent player who was using Eldar in the "Good ol' days" you will have a much harder time, because those players are the ones who learnt to use what they had to its full effectiveness and squeeze out wins with an (at the time) sub-par dex, and now the dex is top tier they can do nasty things with it.

This holds true for any army really... but try asking... "so how long have you been playing Eldar?"
If they say a few monthes then GG, they're more likely to derp and open themselves up or fail to maximise their firepower. If they say since 2nd Ed you better start packing things away.
But like i said, holds true to many armies. It's interesting if you take note of how newer and older players actually play for each army. You'll spot some trends.

Anyway i'm rambling.
I don't like to say any army is "the best" as such, but there are several contenders for top tier. Eldar is definetly one, tho I'm hoping the new Ork dex will bump them up significantly

- Psy powers. Many an Eldar player will forgo their psy trees in favor of divination or telepathy (although not me!) There are some very solid options in the Eldar trees, my personnal favorite is Doom. For obvoius reasons. I never really play much with Warlocks, since they get 1 roll you cannot rely on their powers to be useful for what you intend to do with them, and they get stuck with Guardian units (I don't really like Councils, i used one 2-3 times and felt dirty) At least the Farseer has 3 rolls so you can ALMOST guarentee something you want.

- I still stand by my point that speciality is a potential weakness that can be exploited. For instance melta is rare. The only unit with it is FD (Also Autarch, along with melta pistols on Quinns, but... Quinns?), if you can take them out your alot safer from a melta shot than if you were against several units with melta disperssed amongst them. I think they are costed fairly if you take a melta as +10 points your FD is 12 points a model. Which seems about right to me compared to a marines base points. Maybe bump it up to 13 or go back to a 4+ save, but its about right.

- Jink is indeed a buff to survivability, it will come in very handy in the new mission type. But it is also a nerf if you want to go on the offensive with those WS.
Before you could take a 4+ and continue to pew pew reliably landing 7-10 hits, now you get a 3+ but can then only land 1-2 (usually) in the next turn.
It's alot more fair than it used to be, but i agree it increases the survivability and along with the 7+ to explode a WS can now take alot more shots to bring down, but at least it won't be shooting back anywhere near as much, giving your units more time on the table to get your own VP's

Side note: In 5th i eventually migrated to Mech Eldar and ended up having 6 serpents / prisms at 1850.
In 6th i went down to 4 serpents even at 2000, 7th will most likely follow 6th and remain at 4 for 2000, likely 3 at 1500.