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To be frank with you guys, I hate Eldar, Tau, and Space Marines. I just do. Eldar and Tau, mainly just because of how obnoxious and unnecessarily powerful their codexes are. But my friend like to argue with just about anything I say, and he thinks that IG is the most powerful codex right now. He also doesn't believe Eldar and Tau are that bad, and that everyone just overreacts. I told him that IG would have nothing against Eldar, but he disagrees. What do you guys think? Am I wrong for assuming Eldar would roflstomp the new IG codex?

New IG book is pretty good, got some pretty nasty stuff in there. But I'd give Eldar the edge. They have a lot of answers to much of the good Guard stuff. "Roflstomp" is not a term I'd use though.

PapaSoul wrote:
New IG book is pretty good, got some pretty nasty stuff in there. But I'd give Eldar the edge. They have a lot of answers to much of the good Guard stuff. "Roflstomp" is not a term I'd use though.

Yeah, maybe not, but still. All-in-all I see Eldar fairing a lot better, even against the 15 twin linked plasma cannon shots fiasco or whatever it is.

You are wrong, for the guard are simply brilliant. The Guard are, and have been for a long time one of the best armies in 40k. They're fairly easy to play and have a vast variety of playstyles and though they're easy to use, like space marines. They're very hard to master though you can win a good many games just using them however you want. The Eldar aren't overpowered, they've got a lot of attacks/dakka/psychic powers but they are a glass hammer, they''re very weak. Though most guard armies struggle to keep pace with them, if your forces are managed properly they are fairly easy to deal with overall.

I play IG. We have a strong codex. But it doesn't compare to Eldar.

I've never seen Eldar lose a game in person. And against them I've been tabled 3 out of 3. It's just impossible to kill them with serpent shields, fortune, jinks, etc. so they inevitably have 80% of their army on the table at the end while I have nothing left.

In my games versus other armies, it's often close. I win because I run up a squad to take an objective on the last turn, winning by one point, or I decimate their force but only have a tank and a couple vets left at the end.

Sure the strength of the IG codex helps to make the difference, but the margin of victory is usually measured in a few dice rolls, while Eldar's margin of victory is often 1,000 points.

The new guard codex is very good. But the eldar dex is top dog!
Almost everything in it would be top choices in most dexes imo.
They have the best dedicated transport/tank in the game for its points.
They have an MC that makes all other MCs barring the riptide look overcosted.
They have units in which every member has a lethal AT gun for cheaper than it would cost to put similar AT guns on squads in other dexes.
They have squadrons of vehicles that can put out more mid strength dakka for points than anything else in the game.
They have insane special army wide rules. Including almost every weapon in the dex having a great special rule.
They are strong psychically.
And they are the fastest army in the game unit for unit.


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And with serpents, jink, wraithguard/lords/knights and moving, shooting, then moving back behind LoS blocking cover/out of range, they are also no glass hammer.

I don't understand the problem with wave serpents, tbh. Yes, they're almost impossible to explode, but this is 7th edition. Everything is almost impossible to explode. So why aren't you just glancing it to death? It's AV12. And besides, if it's using its serpent shield to avoid being blown to gak, then it's not using it to shoot at you.

If you can't glance an AV12 chassis to death because it's out of range or something, then I feel bad for you if you ever come up against an army that spams Defilers. Defilers, one of the worst units in the game.

Eldar are super good, but there's nothing in their codex that I wouldn't feel confident dealing with with my Guard lists.

Tau on the other hand, scare me a bit. They out-dakka the Guard while having more durable, faster units.

The problem is not necessarily the serp shields defensive mode, although that can be an issue if you rely on close range melta like BA, (I wont go into the ridiculousness of its offensive mode right now), but their brilliant cover save prevent you from glancing it to death without investing in a silly amount of fire power conpared to the points of the serpent itself.

Edit: oh and the range and speed to get out of danger. Assault marines for example cannot catch them. Lucky sod if you get rear armour shots unless you outflank, and tbf they are often out of range to even attempt the glancing to death.

Guard has ignores cover out the ass though.

I mean, I dunno. Looking at my blob list, one out of my three 200 point infantry blobs is stripping 3 hull-points off an AV12 vehicle a turn on average, and ignoring cover.

Lets look at that - a 240pt blob with 40 guard and 4 autocannons and no other upgrades or supporting characters is given ignores cover by company command squad (lets ignore their points as they can be buffing across the board as the game goes on), that's 4 autocannon hits and 1.3 glances/pens on average.
Say you have another blob of the same which also gets ignores cover. You are now looking at 480pts to have stripped 2.7 hull points off a 145pt (usual cost with upgardes) serpent.
That is of course using the most effective point for point unit to strip hps of serps, not counting any upgrades, characters or the supporting ccs.


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Also assuming you pass the orders.

The problem is that Eldar has quite the tool box to deal with most of what Guard has to offer. Long ranged blast templates? 2++ rerollable and nigh indestructible transports so nope. Lots and lots of tanks? Those transports can have have basically Space Marines tac squads with all Meltaguns. So nope. Infantry? Go stuff yourself, they have more dakka then you can throw a Guardian at.

I can see a few builds work against them. If you use Void Shield generators an all tank list could work against them as Eldar do not have all that much long ranged AT. At least not as much as guard.

Actually, if you use Void Shield generators and ally in a Knight or two you can make guard work.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Lets look at that - a 240pt blob with 40 guard and 4 autocannons and no other upgrades or supporting characters is given ignores cover by company command squad (lets ignore their points as they can be buffing across the board as the game goes on), that's 4 autocannon hits and 1.3 glances/pens on average.
Say you have another blob of the same which also gets ignores cover. You are now looking at 480pts to have stripped 2.7 hull points off a 145pt (usual cost with upgardes) serpent.
That is of course using the most effective point for point unit to strip hps of serps, not counting any upgrades, characters or the supporting ccs.


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Also assuming you pass the orders.

What sort of pleb uses autocannons in their infantry blobs?

And doesn't give them vox's?

And combines squads of four!!!??

Joking aside, what works for you, works (though apparently it doesn't work for you, so why use it as an example?). Personally, I use three-man blobs with Lascannons and plasma guns with an attached Primaris Psyker for prescience and other divination shenanigans. Between the prescienced lascannons and plasma guns, it's knocking 4 HP's off a WS per turn, rounding up, and assuming it's not in rapid-fire range.

Haven't tried the list in 7th yet, warp-charges and WC2 prescience might be a problem, but it worked quite well for me under 6th edition rules. I imagine it'll work in 7th as well, as the new mission rules will incentivize the Eldar player to bring his serpents up and jump on objectives rather than turtle them behind cover in their deployment zone.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Lets look at that - a 240pt blob with 40 guard and 4 autocannons and no other upgrades or supporting characters is given ignores cover by company command squad (lets ignore their points as they can be buffing across the board as the game goes on), that's 4 autocannon hits and 1.3 glances/pens on average.
Say you have another blob of the same which also gets ignores cover. You are now looking at 480pts to have stripped 2.7 hull points off a 145pt (usual cost with upgardes) serpent.
That is of course using the most effective point for point unit to strip hps of serps, not counting any upgrades, characters or the supporting ccs.


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Also assuming you pass the orders.

What sort of pleb uses autocannons in their infantry blobs?

And doesn't give them vox's?

And combines squads of four!!!??

Joking aside, what works for you, works (though apparently it doesn't work for you, so why use it as an example?). Personally, I use three-man blobs with Lascannons and plasma guns with an attached Primaris Psyker for prescience and other divination shenanigans. Between the prescienced lascannons and plasma guns, it's knocking 4 HP's off a WS per turn, rounding up, and assuming it's not in rapid-fire range.

Haven't tried the list in 7th yet, warp-charges and WC2 prescience might be a problem, but it worked quite well for me under 6th edition rules. I imagine it'll work in 7th as well, as the new mission rules will incentive the Eldar player to bring his serpents up and jump on objectives rather than turtle them behind cover in their deployment zone.

Well theres no way those plasma guns are gonna be in range, so might of well as not included them.

Ok so 30 guard, 3 lascannons, 3 plasma guns, 1 (lvl 1) psyker, and vox. So 310pts.
IF you pass the orders AND the psychic test (therefore using a lot of your psychic dice being WC2) AND for some reason the eldar player has left his serpent within 24" and in range for your plasma guns, you are looking at removing 2.25 hp on average.
But of course the eldar player will have shredded your squads from distance long before he comes into plasma range, so lets talk about over 24" range, that's 1.5hp. So 2 squads needed. Thats 620pts to kill off a serp. Even more than the 480pts I suggested.


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Oh and we are assuming auto pass on the tests needed.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:


Well theres no way those plasma guns are gonna be in range

Why? Boards are 4x6. Not that big.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok so 30 guard, 3 lascannons, 3 plasma guns, 1 (lvl 1) psyker, and vox. So 310pts.
IF you pass the orders AND the psychic test (therefore using a lot of your psychic dice being WC2) AND for some reason the eldar player has left his serpent within 24" and in range for your plasma guns, you are looking at removing 2.25 hp on average.
But of course the eldar player will have shredded your squads from distance long before he comes into plasma range, so lets talk about over 24" range, that's 1.5hp. So 2 squads needed. Thats 620pts to kill off a serp. Even more than the 480pts I suggested.


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Oh and we are assuming auto pass on the tests needed.

So in your mind, the Eldar player has a fleet of Wave Serpents sitting across 60'' of open board from a single guardsman blob. Is that basically the scenario in which you're doing these computations which state that your 30-man blob of Guardsmen are going to be shredded to gak by the time they get within 24''?

With vox's for re-rolls, they're going to pass their orders on average. With an average 8 warp-dice per turn (4+D6), they're going to pass their psychic tests on average. You seem like a very cynical fellow.

Depends on what kind of list you field.

Most IG players have several Russes.

However, most Eldar players do not have more than 2 Wave Serpents.

So unless you are the kind of player who brings 3+ Wave Serpents and a Wraithknight onto the table, you arent powergaming with the Eldar.

However, even if an IG player brings 3 Russes, he isnt power gaming.

Now if he manages to squeeze 3 Russes led by Pask with a unit of Bullgryns marching in front of them, 2 Vendettas a Deathstrike flanked by Wyverns, the latter hiding with camo netting behind an ADL, then he sure is.

Wolf Lord Hjemskir wrote:
The Eldar aren't overpowered, they've got a lot of attacks/dakka/psychic powers but they are a glass hammer, they''re very weak..

Nevermind their tanks being able to generate a 3+ cover save in the open at will, T6 heavy infantry units, T8 W6 3+sv heavy support monsters, jetbike units able to sport rerollable 2+ cover saves, etc.

Eldar are not a glass cannon army. If they were, people would probably have fewer problems with them.

They have lots of fragile units, but the army as a whole is not particularly glass cannon-ey.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:


Well theres no way those plasma guns are gonna be in range

Why? Boards are 4x6. Not that big.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Ok so 30 guard, 3 lascannons, 3 plasma guns, 1 (lvl 1) psyker, and vox. So 310pts.
IF you pass the orders AND the psychic test (therefore using a lot of your psychic dice being WC2) AND for some reason the eldar player has left his serpent within 24" and in range for your plasma guns, you are looking at removing 2.25 hp on average.
But of course the eldar player will have shredded your squads from distance long before he comes into plasma range, so lets talk about over 24" range, that's 1.5hp. So 2 squads needed. Thats 620pts to kill off a serp. Even more than the 480pts I suggested.


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Oh and we are assuming auto pass on the tests needed.

So in your mind, the Eldar player has a fleet of Wave Serpents sitting across 60'' of open board from a single guardsman blob. Is that basically the scenario in which you're doing these computations which state that your 30-man blob of Guardsmen are going to be shredded to gak by the time they get within 24''?

With vox's for re-rolls, they're going to pass their orders on average. With an average 8 warp-dice per turn (4+D6), they're going to pass their psychic tests on average. You seem like a very cynical fellow.

The guard are not going to be closing the distance. Who equips a guard squad with lascannons to then slog across the board? The eldar player can hang back and shoot for a few turns before zooming forward over corpses to claim objectives.
So you are using your 8 warp dice to cast 2 prescience (you need 4 each on average, and 2 squads to take down a serp), so not only have you dedicated over 600pts of shooting to take down a single serp but also your entire psychic phase. Yes you are right they will usually pass their orders with voxes and psychic tests with 8 dice, however, factoring in the chances of them failing brings down the average hps even further. So now we are looking at over 600pts that isnt even killing a serp on average.
And no - an eldar player isnt going to have a fleet of serpents across from one guard squad... but he can afford 4 with points to spare for the 2 squads it costs to take down 1!


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And can sit nicely at 36" away...


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I fight serpents A LOT. They are definitely not easy to take down. The most effective, yet unconventional method I have found is stormravens. Zoom them up when they arrive, firing 2 missiles, a mm and an assault cannon at them, do some minor damage if the shield is up, medium damage if it is not (and you are lucky). Drop into hover next turn, zip behind serpents, do a 180, shoot mm, ac and missiles into rear armour. Although half the time the eldar player will have moved far enough away to prevent rear shors if he is experienced against this move.
You also then lose your ravens next turn...

I don't get the whole Eldar hate thing... Sure they have alot of good units, but usually people list a bunch of crap that Eldar can do, without really mentioning that you CANNOT take ALL of it in any reasonably pointed game.

Mass WS arn't cheap (5 is over 700 points, without the units inside)
FD arn't cheap (110 for 5 with no upgrades)
WG arn't cheap (420 for 10 with scythes)
WL arn't cheap (~140)
WK arn't cheap (240+)

Can you fit all that in and still make room a 400-600 points jetseer unit?

Who said you needed to fit everything in to make a dead-'ard army?

Fire dragons ARE cheap at 110pts for 5 melta guns!
Wraithknights ARE cheap when you compare them to other MCs.
Wave serpents are ridiculosly cheap for their points. The equivalent 700pts would need the entire game to do half damage to the 5 if they weren't being shot at in return!
The point isnt that an eldar player will take ALL of these options, the point is there are so many undercosted options avaliable to eldar that it makes the dex OP. Even taking SOME of these options gives eldar players a massive headstart!

I have noticed from personal experience, that Eldar players are least likely to understand just how powerful their codex is. They also all call the Imperial Guard too Powerful.

I would agree with that when viewing dakka. However my most regular eldar mate has used my own BA and CSM against me on different occasions and wants to use my crons next becausehe is sick of playing eldar all the time.

Thats how I felt with mine, so I sold my Eldar off. Even the worst list I could make using 100% Aspect Warriors felt too easy to use.

Even banshees :-p?

Yes (they only did well once). I had one of every single aspect in my full army. No vehicles except the crimson hunter and some wraith guard which were the only non aspect unit (they used to be aspect warriors though...).

Still felt too easy. I did struggle against necron warrior hordes and that was it.

I would like to play against a list like that with a sub-optimal CSM or cron list for a nice relaxed, fluffy game. Since recently in the past few months agreeing to go fluff over cheese, me and my mates have enjoyed the games even more. Its the way GW are trying to push it I suppose. Although doing it by making people sick of broken cheese isn't the best way to do it imo.

Yep, I think a lot of clubs hit this wall where they dimply say screw it and play the game the way it seems it was intended. Still trying to win but in a cool way kind of haha. Playing fluffily was what made my last game a lot of fun despite facing Eldar.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599050.page

So on topic, here is a battle where I defeated an Eldar army from the craft world that was lost in the warp for years. Many Orphans were made and many widows cried. But Victory was won.

I like to try make all my battles like the above and its been a blast so far. Really washes away a lot of the problems we used to have.

For the WS, If it jinks the firepower is lessened drastically, if it fires it's shield its not converting to glances.
You cannot view it as a tank with great firepower + survivability since doing one lessens the other.

3+ cover and converting to glances is awesome, but your then looking at a SL + SC snap-firing. Not that awesome for firepower.

SL + SS + SC firing and then you have an AV12 3HP hull without jink or glance conversion. Not so hard to take down.

Having played Eldar for some time i know i can take them down with almost any well-made army, and have done so in the past.

Are you playing on an open board with no cover where the serpent also cannot use its long range to keep away from return firepower? Because thats what most eldar players can do if using it to shoot.
And if using it as a transport to get those Fragons or wraithguard next to my landraider? Unparalleled ability to do so by ANYTHING in the game!
Plus if you have a serp SPAM I can realistically only make you jink one or two a turn as otherwise I am spreading my firepower and doing little damage which leads to a very quick defeat.
Lastly don't forget twin linked... your bs is still at a level with an ork even when you jink.


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 Swastakowey wrote:
Yep, I think a lot of clubs hit this wall where they dimply say screw it and play the game the way it seems it was intended. Still trying to win but in a cool way kind of haha. Playing fluffily was what made my last game a lot of fun despite facing Eldar.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/599050.page

So on topic, here is a battle where I defeated an Eldar army from the craft world that was lost in the warp for years. Many Orphans were made and many widows cried. But Victory was won.

I like to try make all my battles like the above and its been a blast so far. Really washes away a lot of the problems we used to have.

Nice - I'll have a proper look tomorrow.