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No, i just find it funny you claim i haven't played 7ed and might have no skills and you never looked at my signature

Anyone wishing to continue participating in this discussion must immediately cut out the needlessly dismissive attitudes to what the other person is saying, even if you vehemently disagree with it.

For example:

• Calling someone a troll is trolling.
• Saying that you laugh at the points someone brings up is needlessly dismissive and therefore is trolling.
• Claiming that your experience makes your argument superior to someone else's argument is needlessly dismissive and therefore is trolling.
• Using simplistic rude terms to describe something (X 'sucks', for example) is again needlessly dismissive and therefore is trolling.


If you wish to bother having a discussion, then stick to presenting the facts of why you think your argument is correct and politely explaining why you think other peoples' arguments aren't correct. In other words, politely stick to the topic and avoid attacking those who disagree with you (including rudely dismissing their opinions).

In the vast majority of cases, you will never actually convince the person you arguing against that they are wrong; such is the internet. Instead, you are arguing for all the 'other' people out there that are reading the thread without replying. For those people, you don't need to be rude, you don't need to refute the same points over and over and over again no matter how many times someone comes back with the same points. Just make your case and refute the position of others and your points will stand on their own.

There is simply never any reason to be rude and dismissive when discussing toy soldiers.

Maybe one cool unbound list would be to spam oblits and sorcerers. Twinlink the oblits and spam your witchfires. If you want to be competitive, take plague marines for your table units and deepstrike the sorc/oblits. So much twinlinked shooting!!

The unbound cheesery with oblits is usually to field them as units of 1 to prevent wound overspill. prescience is 2 warp charges now so you would only really want to cast it on units of 3 obliterators.

Also obliterators already have twin linked plasma,melta and flamers as options.

final point to make is that sorcs can only take divination with a special wargear option from crimson slaughter :-(

I think it's better to simply spam obliterators.

Is there even anything that's better than spamming Obliterators as CSM ?

 BoomWolf wrote:
As much as I love the Tsons, and actually wanted to play them as my army when I started...

They dont work. they never did.
Even when you ramp up as much cheese are you can, they hardly get to the "decent" zone for casual games.

Yeah I have to agree. God help the TS player that goes full on fluffy.

Surprised no one has actually said it. There's a formula to answer the OPs question.

To make the ultimate TS cheese list:

1) take Ahriman and a couple small TS units

2) take multiple detachments consisting of the following:

- 1 Sorcerer
- 2 5 man Tsons units

3) repeat step 2 until you get near 1850 points, then buy extra mastery levels for the sorcerers.

There's going to be a lot of psychic points to spend each turn, quite a few of the sorcerers are going to get Doombolt, there's going to be a lot of MSU going on, each squad is going to be very shooty at 24 inches. I imagine, if some of the sorcerers get summoning powers, there's a chance you could get some greater daemons on the board as well.

This might not be an awful list, just a bad one. I wonder if anyone in the world actually has the models for such a thing.

Eh the problem with taking nothing but 1kson squads is you're only getting one warp charge per squad, and those guys are pricey. I'd consider allying in some pink horrors, as warp charge batteries. 22 horrors gets you 4 more charges plus 3 from a herald for 300 pts, and it lets you use daemonology without constant perils. Add in a portalglyph and you've solved a mono-sons lists big problem, lack of cheap scorers.

As far as actual 1k son viability, they did improve this edition for certain. You can fire the sorcerers powers at separate targets from the squad so no more wasting ap3 bolters while tank hunting with bolts. Multiple witchfires can be shot so each squads killing potential went up. Beams got buffed so doombolts is better. And depending on how chaos focus gets ruled, you might be able to take sanctic or malefic powers on the aspiring sorcs as well.

techsoldaten, I'll bite. for 1850 I come up with Ahriman, 3 ML3 sorcs w/ spell familiar and 8 groups of 5 man 1kson squads with 45 pts left over.

Of the 8 aspiring sorcs, each will get the primaris which is next to worthless, 2 or 3 will get boon which is worthless, 2 or 3 will get doombolt which is decent, and 2 or 3 will great breath which is really bad for WC2. So you get 2 or 3 doombolters out of the deal in 8 MSU rubric groups on foot.

To support that you get 3sorcs and arhiman who have no choice really but to tag along with one or more of the squads. Now what powers are you hoping for to spend your 24+d6 warp dice on that are really going to allow your rubrics to pull out a win?

I'm not seeing it. This not only doesn't sound like cheese, but sounds like a real pushover army. 32 AP3 bolters on marines with 4++ won't go very far and there is a severe lack of anti-vehicle weaponry. Doombolt is ok vs vehicles but its ultimately 18" meltagun without melta. You can have all the psychic powers you want but with 25-30 warp dice spread. across 12 psykers and nothing but rubrics to buff it won't help you much. Some rhinos would help but you'd have to sack a whole detachment to afford more than one or two.

Primary Detachment - CSM

HQ
Chaos Sorcerer: MoT, ML3, AoDG, Bike 160pts
Chaos Sorcerer: ML 3, Familiar, SoC, Bike 155pts

FA
3 Chaos Bikers: 2x Meltagun 90pts

Troops
5 Thousand Sons 150pts
5 Thousand Sons 150pts

Secondary Detachment - CSM

HQ
Chaos Sorcerer: MoT, ML3, AoDG, Bike 160pts
Chaos Sorcerer: ML 3, Familiar, SoC, Bike 155pts

Troops
5 Thousand Sons 150pts
5 Thousand Sons 150pts

Tertiary Detachment - CSM: Crimson Slaughter

HQ
Chaos Sorcerer: ML 3, PotV, Familiar 155pts
Chaos Sorcerer: ML 3, BoM, Familiar, SoC, Bike 195pts

Troops
5 Possessed 130pts
10 Cultists 50pts

AoDG: Aura of Dark Glory
SoC: Sigil of Corruption
PotV: Prophet of the Voices
BoM: Balestar of Mannon

The Prophet Sorcerer goes with the unit of Possessed and rolls powers from Daemonolgy, sit them somewhere safe and hopefully summon something.

The rest of the Sorcerers make a little psychic bikestar, Balestar sorc rolls Divination, one unmarked rolls Biomancy and the other Telepathy and hope for the right powers to come up. Cover anything missing with the two marked one's spare rolls and/or grab the Pyromancy Primaris.

Use the troops to hold objectives till they are mercilessly slaughtered. Basically it's a terrible list and isn't even very Thousand Son orientated, in fact it would probably be better using other troops and loosing the 4 extra WC. But hey it might be fun and you'll have 22 WC's plus anything from the stuff you can summon.

JubbJubbz wrote:
techsoldaten, I'll bite. for 1850 I come up with Ahriman, 3 ML3 sorcs w/ spell familiar and 8 groups of 5 man 1kson squads with 45 pts left over.

Of the 8 aspiring sorcs, each will get the primaris which is next to worthless, 2 or 3 will get boon which is worthless, 2 or 3 will get doombolt which is decent, and 2 or 3 will great breath which is really bad for WC2. So you get 2 or 3 doombolters out of the deal in 8 MSU rubric groups on foot.

To support that you get 3sorcs and arhiman who have no choice really but to tag along with one or more of the squads. Now what powers are you hoping for to spend your 24+d6 warp dice on that are really going to allow your rubrics to pull out a win?

I'm not seeing it. This not only doesn't sound like cheese, but sounds like a real pushover army. 32 AP3 bolters on marines with 4++ won't go very far and there is a severe lack of anti-vehicle weaponry. Doombolt is ok vs vehicles but its ultimately 18" meltagun without melta. You can have all the psychic powers you want but with 25-30 warp dice spread. across 12 psykers and nothing but rubrics to buff it won't help you much. Some rhinos would help but you'd have to sack a whole detachment to afford more than one or two.

Maybe our definitions of cheese are different. I thought it was supposed to stink.

According to the psychic power cards CSM get divination. I don't see why GW would print those out at the same time as their rulebook and have them contradict each other. They give other factions more disciplines too.

Chaos has divination.

The cards say that because of the CS relic that gives 1 sorcerer Divination (And Huron and the Sorcery Scroll).

We have severely limited Divination.

How are you certain? Why do other races get extra disciplines as well? There's nothing on the cards that say that specifically. Only a big fat check under that discipline. Can you point me to something official that clarifies the cards?

The FAQs don't state the psykers get access to those disciplines like they did with Daemonmany. Which other races got 'access' to additional powers (beside Daemonmancy) per the cards? I though CSM were the only ones with additional Disciplines listed.

The CSM codex.

Page 94 wrote:
Psycher

Sorcerors generate their powers from the Biomancy, Pyromancy and Telepathy diciplines.

Specific trumps general, codex trumps rulebook. You get those 3 diciplines plus a required minimum of 1 roll on your patron gods chart if you've taken a mark.

Fair, but then why would they print a chart that shows a huge increase in psychic discipline variety? Especially when these cards are meant to be sold to all 40k players and should serve as an indication as to what each codex can cast? Saying divination is castable for chaos is a huge point of confusion for most new players if they chart says yes, but they actually can't.

And no other army got new options? Compare and contrast:
Dawn of 6th: http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm106/Linnear1701/40K/63.jpg
Dawn of 7th: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CypzCxt6PC4/U3z1CGim7AI/AAAAAAAA80U/-jynXfDnI68/s1600/PjhHTlV+-+Imgur.jpg

Again, why would they give Chaos this checkbox just to confuse us? I mean the balestar of manon is meant to be an exception to the rules, not a limitation. Why would you need to them available, then not with the codex, then again with only the relic? Just make them not with the codex.

I didn't say they didn't, I said I wasn't aware they had.

Back when the 6th Ed one was released, many of the codexes (i.e. None) had access to disciplines listed in their codex. Come 7th, many had been updated with more (or less for tyranids) since the release of the 6th Edition chart. IG/AM got access to Divination vis new Primaris Psyker rules, Tiggy can use Div via the SM codex, etc.

The reason there are more ticks is a mixture of GW decided to give unupdated codexes more options (with a FaQ to go along with it) or the fact that the codexes got updated in 6th with additional access to powers from the initial release of 6th, if only for 1 or 2 SC or through items. For CSM, it is the later not the former (otherwise their FaQ would say they can use Div).

That is interestingly vague, but par for the course as far as rules-writing track record goes lol

Back to topic, I've been playing Thousand Sons armies since the heady days of CSM 3.5. They have never been as strong as those times, but 7th does give them some new bite. This is the list that I last used, and the first one I've used w Daemon allies, at 1850pts. Not easy to play, but packs a punch anyways:

HQ:
Ahriman

Troops:
9 Thousand Sons - w Rhino
9 Thousand Sons

Fast Attack:
Heldrake - baleflamer

Heavy Support:
Land Raider - dirgecasters, dozer blades
Predator - autocannon, heavy bolter, dozer blades
Defiler - warpflame gargoyles

Allied HQ:
Lord of Change - ML3, 2 greater n 1 lesser rewards (the lesser reward is always Staff of Change)

Allied Troops:
10 Pink Horrors

What do you put in the land raider Spunky? Land Raider with dirge begs for an assaulty unit inside but neither the rubrics or the pink horrors can really get much use out of it.

A unit of Thousand Sons can do more damage popping out of a Land Raider than an equal squad of zerkers. They get to shoot off psychic powers, rapid fire, and then assault. And while regular Sons are pretty bad in combat, the Sorcerer can tear stuff up.

Exactly Badablack. Ahriman and the Thousand Sons squad without the Rhino are in the Land Raider. Most people underestimate the Sons in close combat, but if you pick your fights, they are pretty nasty. They used to be super awesome back in CSM 3,5 (aspiring sorcerer with 5 power fist attacks w 2 rerolls), but they are still deadly now, only fluffier.

I got lucky the other day and got both Iron Arm and Invisibility, and Ahriman and his squad were tearing up all kinds of things on the table.

crimson_caesar wrote:
Again, why would they give Chaos this checkbox just to confuse us? I mean the balestar of manon is meant to be an exception to the rules, not a limitation. Why would you need to them available, then not with the codex, then again with only the relic? Just make them not with the codex.

No where on the card does is say "all psykers get the checked powers" so why assume as such

The reference cards says what each faction has access to, not what each psyker has access to.

It's not confusing at all, it just takes reading comprehension

 Badablack wrote:
A unit of Thousand Sons can do more damage popping out of a Land Raider than an equal squad of zerkers. They get to shoot off psychic powers, rapid fire, and then assault. And while regular Sons are pretty bad in combat, the Sorcerer can tear stuff up.

Guess I'll have to try it to find out since I've never run 1kSons in LR before. It seems that most of the damage they'd be doing coming out of the LR is from the rapid fire which can be done equally well coming out of a rhino. I've been very unimpressed with the tzeentch psychic powers since the codex came out and since 7th the sorc just seems to be dragging the rubrics down even further. For the record, as far as I can tell against tacticals, Tksons do only about the same damage as a Bzerkers squad (champ with power sword).

Seems to me that any unit without a 2+ save should be afraid of 1K sons. Cast prescience on a unit of rapid firing 1K sons and watch your opponent cry. AP3 rapid firing, twin linked bolters are pretty nasty. Not to mention the sorcerer firing doom bolt at a completely different unit.

Well, given the 1 in 3 chance he gets doombolt and not one of the other totally crap powers

 sub-zero wrote:
Seems to me that any unit without a 2+ save should be afraid of 1K sons. Cast prescience on a unit of rapid firing 1K sons and watch your opponent cry. AP3 rapid firing, twin linked bolters are pretty nasty. Not to mention the sorcerer firing doom bolt at a completely different unit.

Everything with a cover save doesn't care about 1K sons

Threads like this one made me try out a few 1k Sons list for a tourney coming up, just to see how they would work out. I ultimately ended up running 3 squads of Sons in rhinos, 2 with attached Sorcerers, and then a bunch of allied tzeentch daemons. Over the course of 3 games this is what stood out:

The daemons built up increasing amounts of warp charges, provided Divination for ignoring cover saves and rerolls, and spewed out tons of expendable psychic bodies with daemonology and the portalglyph. The Thousand Sons, frankly, tore up everything with psychic and normal shooting.

The Sorcs (with psychic familiars) and Aspiring Sorcs were all getting off multiple doombolts and firestorms from inside the rhinos, until their rides got blown up. Then they continued killing on foot with ap3 bolters, until they got assaulted. And then they had supporting psychic power with prescience and invisibility, fearless 4+ invul meatshields, and 2 bad dudes with force axes.

I'll admit most of my opponents ran little to no psykers and thus had little in the way of defense, but 1kSons have double the firepower now, provide a fearless bunker for Sorcs, and can insta-kill nearly anything. I can see them struggling with armor-heavy lists, but absolutely tearing apart hordes.

 yakface wrote:

Anyone wishing to continue participating in this discussion must immediately cut out the needlessly dismissive attitudes to what the other person is saying, even if you vehemently disagree with it.

For example:

• Calling someone a troll is trolling.
• Saying that you laugh at the points someone brings up is needlessly dismissive and therefore is trolling.
• Claiming that your experience makes your argument superior to someone else's argument is needlessly dismissive and therefore is trolling.
• Using simplistic rude terms to describe something (X 'sucks', for example) is again needlessly dismissive and therefore is trolling.


If you wish to bother having a discussion, then stick to presenting the facts of why you think your argument is correct and politely explaining why you think other peoples' arguments aren't correct. In other words, politely stick to the topic and avoid attacking those who disagree with you (including rudely dismissing their opinions).

In the vast majority of cases, you will never actually convince the person you arguing against that they are wrong; such is the internet. Instead, you are arguing for all the 'other' people out there that are reading the thread without replying. For those people, you don't need to be rude, you don't need to refute the same points over and over and over again no matter how many times someone comes back with the same points. Just make your case and refute the position of others and your points will stand on their own.

There is simply never any reason to be rude and dismissive when discussing toy soldiers.

This is glorious. You worded it better than I ever could have. I reserve this quote for future usage.

@Badablack, sounds like you had an awesome run with the Sons, well done