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With the addition of the new psychic phase, it would seem that 1K sons would have an advantage over other armies due to the shear amount of sorcerers that one can take.

I want the devious minds of Dakka Dakka to produce the most foul smelling cheese list (psychically speaking) using 1K sons WITHOUT deamon allies. My 6 year old daughter can make a cheese list using deamons. I'm looking for straight 1K sons in all of their psychic glory.

Let's set the points limit to 1850, you can use supplements (black legion, crimson slaughter, etc.) , but NO Deamon allies only Chaos allies.

Ready...

Set....

GO!!!

No such thing. 1k Sons became better; they didn't become good however.

Tzeentch Daemons however...

Wow guys! Thank you so much for your nuggets of infinite wisdom!

 Truth118 wrote:
Tzeentch Daemons however...

Are now terrible

Purge everything with unholy flame. You can either go the fully psycher shenanigans or you can go for the dakka shenanigans. I've always wanted to see a tomb king war sphinx used as a forgefiend

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Truth118 wrote:
Tzeentch Daemons however...

Are now terrible

What are you talking about??? Tzeenchaemons rock

Let's see...the crimson slaughter book grants divination to CSM...so...

HQ:
CSM Sorcerer
Lvl 3, term armor, spell fam tz

CSM Sorcerer
Lvl 3, term armor, spell FAM tz

Elite
Helbrute
Helbrute
Helbrute

Troops
Tsonsx5 w/ asp champ & rhino
Tsonsx5 w/ asp champ & rhino
Tsonsx5 w/ asp champ & rhino
CSMx5
CSMx5
CSMx5

FA
Heldrakex2

Hvy
Laspred x2

That's only 9+d6 spell dice...if you take the crimson slaughter book it could provide the div artifact...meh, this might be weak?

As much as I love the Tsons, and actually wanted to play them as my army when I started...

They dont work. they never did.
Even when you ramp up as much cheese are you can, they hardly get to the "decent" zone for casual games.

Chaos warhound titan dual turbolaser destructors
1 lvl 3 tzeentch sorcerers on bikes with crimson slaughter divination orb
1 flying nurgle daemon prince lvl 3 psyker, familiar, burning brand
Helcult with 35 cultists, 10 cultists and naked helbrute (bunker for sorc) Fill remaining points with thousand sons.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Truth118 wrote:
Tzeentch Daemons however...

Are now terrible

What are you talking about??? Tzeenchaemons rock

They are completely dependant on witchfires which now suck cause they take over twice as many warp charges to cast with any reliabilty.

Oh yeah... Probably take ahriman instead of generic sorc, ahriman can cast psychic scream 3 times to melt termies and tides.

He can't get it. Mark of T blocks access to any non-T prime power. (scream Is prime right?)

It doesn't block access to it, you just have to replace a Telepathy power for it (like in 6th) instead of getting it for free with Psychic Focus. You can still get primes the normal (6th) way in 7th.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Truth118 wrote:
Tzeentch Daemons however...

Are now terrible

What are you talking about??? Tzeenchaemons rock

They are completely dependant on witchfires which now suck cause they take over twice as many warp charges to cast with any reliabilty.

Why bother even using their tree when you could just take Daemonology and summon more daemons. Have you ever seen how obnoxious Pink Horrors are in ruins going to ground? 2++ Rerollable? Pink Horrors summoning More Pink Horrors, eventually getting a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change. I've played my share of 7th now, and Daemons of Tzeentch (Psykers in there) are phenominal!

I would kindly ask you take your negativity and go back to playing Eldar

Oh, you still can.
Was sure you can't do that any more and can only get them from focus.
Dear mother of god...you have any idea what are the implications?!


Even with minimal warp points, triple-shriek and triple-smite can be quite destructive against the right opponents (and you know what they play when you roll, or should I say pick them). even triple firestorm is a good anti-horde weapon, and god protect you if he rolled for doombolt in his tzench roll. and given the fact he can have 3 sure-taken 1 warp charge witchfires (two from book primes, 1 from T prime, and possible another from T table rolls) you know you can fix the triple-witchfire to the target you need.

Actually, if he took multiple witchfires, and given the fact the staff allows a witchfire to be cast three times, without a limit on how many different witchfires can benefit, you can, as long you got warp points, throw down 6 or more witchfires at a single charge each (so no danger of blowing up) and completely pummel any target in range even when you got 50% to fail a cast.

If you have a battery to feed him more warp points, say hello to triple shriek, triple smite, triple firestorm and if lucky triple doombolts all hitting you at once, and divided as most beneficial between multiple targets.
With a lucky throw on the random generation, you don't even NEED a battery, as you might have the 9 warp charges needed for triple cast of all three power spells. (lets admit it, firestorm is rather useless against anything heavier then ork boys, gaunts or platoons)

That's a one-man wrecking crew. just get in range and pretty much everything short of a superheavy is dead. even O'rly would drool over the sheer firepower of the dude.
Oh, and his auto-warlord trait give infiltrate. so you are in range turn 1 if you want to be.

If he had a spell familiar....he would have been unstoppable....

Heck, back him up with multi-witchfire lvl 3 sorcerers that DO have familiars to just go to town saying "you see them dispel charges you get as a demon factury psyker spam? that's not nearly enough to save you."

I might have broken witchfires. quite a feat considering everyone says they are useless

CrownAxe wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Truth118 wrote:
Tzeentch Daemons however...

Are now terrible

What are you talking about??? Tzeenchaemons rock

They are completely dependant on witchfires which now suck cause they take over twice as many warp charges to cast with any reliabilty.

See below.
Deamonology is great, and tzeench get to make the most of it.

GoliothOnline wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Truth118 wrote:
Tzeentch Daemons however...

Are now terrible

What are you talking about??? Tzeenchaemons rock

They are completely dependant on witchfires which now suck cause they take over twice as many warp charges to cast with any reliabilty.

Why bother even using their tree when you could just take Daemonology and summon more daemons. Have you ever seen how obnoxious Pink Horrors are in ruins going to ground? 2++ Rerollable? Pink Horrors summoning More Pink Horrors, eventually getting a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change. I've played my share of 7th now, and Daemons of Tzeentch (Psykers in there) are phenominal!

I would kindly ask you take your negativity and go back to playing Eldar

 BoomWolf wrote:
Oh, you still can.
Was sure you can't do that any more and can only get them from focus.
Dear mother of god...you have any idea what are the implications?!


Even with minimal warp points, triple-shriek and triple-smite can be quite destructive against the right opponents (and you know what they play when you roll, or should I say pick them). even triple firestorm is a good anti-horde weapon, and god protect you if he rolled for doombolt in his tzench roll. and given the fact he can have 3 sure-taken 1 warp charge witchfires (two from book primes, 1 from T prime, and possible another from T table rolls) you know you can fix the triple-witchfire to the target you need.

Actually, if he took multiple witchfires, and given the fact the staff allows a witchfire to be cast three times, without a limit on how many different witchfires can benefit, you can, as long you got warp points, throw down 6 or more witchfires at a single charge each (so no danger of blowing up) and completely pummel any target in range even when you got 50% to fail a cast.

If you have a battery to feed him more warp points, say hello to triple shriek, triple smite, triple firestorm and if lucky triple doombolts all hitting you at once, and divided as most beneficial between multiple targets.
With a lucky throw on the random generation, you don't even NEED a battery, as you might have the 9 warp charges needed for triple cast of all three power spells. (lets admit it, firestorm is rather useless against anything heavier then ork boys, gaunts or platoons)

That's a one-man wrecking crew. just get in range and pretty much everything short of a superheavy is dead. even O'rly would drool over the sheer firepower of the dude.
Oh, and his auto-warlord trait give infiltrate. so you are in range turn 1 if you want to be.

If he had a spell familiar....he would have been unstoppable....

Heck, back him up with multi-witchfire lvl 3 sorcerers that DO have familiars to just go to town saying "you see them dispel charges you get as a demon factury psyker spam? that's not nearly enough to save you."

I might have broken witchfires. quite a feat considering everyone says they are useless

It sounds good at first, but with the failure to cast rate its unimpressive at best given Ahrimans price tag. Either you throw extra warp dice at the witchfires to make them go off further increasing the points you're investing in the witchfires, or you throw one dice at them and average 1.5 successful casts a turn. A squad of 10 marines with 2 plasma guns in a rhino is cheaper, deadlier, more mobile, more durable, has objective secured, and still aren't considered good. Ahriman shooting mind bullets everywhere is cool, but far from being good. His infiltrate is nice but you pay for it by making 1ksons troops instead of something usable.

Cheesy 1ksons list is an oxymoron. Squads are too expensive to get a bunch of warp charges out of to make a psychic power house army. Additionally putting the MoT on your sorcs is basically playing at a handicap.

As people have mentioned, Tsons still blow. You still only cast as many spells as you have mastery level (brb pg22) so he can psy shriek like 3 times then cast one more thing, assuming he hasnt been dragged into the warp at this point. Your limited warp charge means that it gets denied constantly. Sorcs with spell familiars are better, but still have to pay the tzeentch tax if you want to play Tsons, instead of unmarked ones not having to roll on a god table

GoliothOnline wrote:
Why bother even using their tree when you could just take Daemonology and summon more daemons. Have you ever seen how obnoxious Pink Horrors are in ruins going to ground? 2++ Rerollable? Pink Horrors summoning More Pink Horrors, eventually getting a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change. I've played my share of 7th now, and Daemons of Tzeentch (Psykers in there) are phenominal!

I would kindly ask you take your negativity and go back to playing Eldar

Cause that's not good either.
http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-case-against-psykers.html

 CrownAxe wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Why bother even using their tree when you could just take Daemonology and summon more daemons. Have you ever seen how obnoxious Pink Horrors are in ruins going to ground? 2++ Rerollable? Pink Horrors summoning More Pink Horrors, eventually getting a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change. I've played my share of 7th now, and Daemons of Tzeentch (Psykers in there) are phenominal!

I would kindly ask you take your negativity and go back to playing Eldar

Cause that's not good either.
http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-case-against-psykers.html

Interesting article but it misses some tricks. Hiding the blue scribes and getting an average of 3 free units (at no warpcharge cost) is pretty solid. As is the nurgle prince (flying and shrouded) with brand and familiar you are generally going to make back more than your points cost.

I agree at the moment it looks like all in psykers is a bad idea but there are still good summoning options.

Im still referring back to that tzeentch daemons suck. Summoning isn't bad and there are ways that chaos can make psykers work with spell familiars. But Tzeentch daemons don't do it well for aforementioned reasons

Unbound army of 20 obliterators with mark of tzeench for about 1600p. Thats 20 individual units.
Thats enough left to include 50 cultists to secure objectives.
Enjoy.

Psychers, unless you play herald spam with summoning, got nerfed.
1k sons suffer from the curse of "anything that we can do, you can do it better", making them not worthless, but never worth it.
Certainly no cheese here.

 CrownAxe wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
Why bother even using their tree when you could just take Daemonology and summon more daemons. Have you ever seen how obnoxious Pink Horrors are in ruins going to ground? 2++ Rerollable? Pink Horrors summoning More Pink Horrors, eventually getting a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change. I've played my share of 7th now, and Daemons of Tzeentch (Psykers in there) are phenominal!

I would kindly ask you take your negativity and go back to playing Eldar

Cause that's not good either.
http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-case-against-psykers.html

lmfao

Ok, first off, reading this was cancerous man.. I'm gonna have to scoop my eyes out with a spork after this.

I've played a good 15 games of 7th running my Pink Horrors and Heralds + Keeper of Secrets to unlock Daemon Prince of Slaanesh Heavy Supports, Haven't lost a single one due to my Pink Horrors or Heralds being "Bad because Tzeentch" In fact, several of those games I had hold objectives for me and manage to win me the games. Not to mention the absolute amazingness of the Swarming capabilities you have with Pink Horrors summoning more Pink Horrors.

This entire read was basically a shitstorm of list building bollocks, statements like "If you bring Heralds of Tzeentch you're going to get barrage weaponed to death" Yeah, sure, if your opponent list builds against you... What kind of playerbase does this chap play with? Cmon. By that logic everyones armies suck because everyone else can simply do this or that to completely make them worthless and win outright because "They bad units" or "This completely negates that".

Sounds like you play against people bad at the 40k then. Anything can beat people who aren't good at the game.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Sounds like you play against people bad at the 40k then. Anything can beat people who aren't good at the game.

Again, you bring up a lot of speculation, with 0 evidence proven from your own knowledge of the game. I guess on a more serious note, have you actually TRIED using them? Rather, do you actually PLAY 7th Edition?

Not for anything, but anyone can go out and comb the internet for site references that mean nothing. Without your own knowledge on the matter and your own points to bring to the table, why should we even listen to you? lol

And not to get over protective of some of the players I've played, but they're great people. When we play competitively, we play to win. My lists on the matter reflected that. Your logic on the matter however, even linked to a troll site for 1/2 baked references, are pretty funny, but again useless.

All you've brought up is anecdotal evidence which has no validity because there is no way to determine if the people you've beat are actually skilled at the game or if you are telling the truth or not. You haven't said anything with any sort of reasoning or logic behind it.

The blog post i posted had solid reasoning and explanations for its several points. If you're going to dismiss it as "speculation" then there is no point in arguing with you because you you will just dismiss any argument as such regardless of how much logic or reasoning it uses.

 CrownAxe wrote:
All you've brought up is anecdotal evidence which has no validity because there is no way to determine if the people you've beat are actually skilled at the game or if you are telling the truth or not. You haven't said anything with any sort of reasoning or logic behind it.

The blog post i posted had solid reasoning and explanations for its several points. If you're going to dismiss it as "speculation" then there is no point in arguing with you because you you will just dismiss any argument as such regardless of how much logic or reasoning it uses.

1) You linked a site which hasn't a single merit of actual proof outside being a list build for the single purpose of countering said aspects of Daemons.
2) And how do we know you aren't someone who completely sucks at this game? Hmmm?
3) My reasoning and logic comes from my own experience, which you clearly have none of since you completely shove aside any and all knowledge on the matter telling you otherwise.
4)My ENTIRE reason for laughing throughout this argument is because of my first hand knowledge of how the units work. I don't need to speculate on the matter when I've used them, to great effect at that.

I'm going to finish this off with simply saying this. If you have nothing productive to say on the matter and just wish to plop junk on the site without your own personal experiences with units, and want to believe that everyone explicitly list tailors and builds to shut down things like Daemon Factory, you can probably keep it to yourself because it's hilariously biased and terribly thought out having to link and believe someone elses word on the matter.

I've played a good 15 games of 7th running my Pink Horrors and Heralds + Keeper of Secrets to unlock Daemon Prince of Slaanesh Heavy Supports, Haven't won a single one due to my Pink Horrors or Heralds being "Bad because Tzeentch" In fact, several of those games I tried to hold objectives for me and still lost because they dies to armys with actual damage. Not to mention the absolute unimpressive Swarming capabilities you have with Pink Horrors summoning more Pink Horrors because they still do nothing because they have no guns or close combat capabilities.

There you go, my first hand knowledge and expereince

 CrownAxe wrote:
I've played a good 15 games of 7th running my Pink Horrors and Heralds + Keeper of Secrets to unlock Daemon Prince of Slaanesh Heavy Supports, Haven't won a single one due to my Pink Horrors or Heralds being "Bad because Tzeentch" In fact, several of those games I tried to hold objectives for me and still lost because they dies to armys with actual damage. Not to mention the absolute unimpressive Swarming capabilities you have with Pink Horrors summoning more Pink Horrors because they still do nothing because they have no guns or close combat capabilities.

There you go, my first hand knowledge and expereince

Oh IC now. You ARE trolling. Ok then. Carry on.