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Ohh you expecting GW to give a flying **** about not releasing afaq. They've left many issues unresolved for a long time.

626 has a point. The banner crushes deamons. however large units such as banner star(white lions alarielle various other characters.) are tie machines in competition as they can be minimized in the damage they put on your units. This is not to say its a fun or easy game. But its not a big winner unless it faces other hordes.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
How do you mean with all the toys?

Scaly skin, charmed shield, sword of striking, breath weapon, soul feeder and peripherals. Take the vamp blender lord, he hits this prince on 5s with no rerolls. Whereas the prince then slaps him back on 3s.

An Eternal Beatstick Keeper still cracks him, especially if you or any event you're in allows the rather dubious 'combine it with the ASF sword' ruling.

There's no two ways about the ruling. It's concrete in the FAQ.

Any weapon that provides a latent bonus, is always active, even if you're not using it.

So you use the ASF sword, and get the bonuses from the Eternal Blade.

Also, it depends on the roll of the combo. If you don't kill the prince before he strikes, the kipper is dead.

No, it isn't cut and dry, as our own book explicitly tells us that a Daemon who's carrying more than 1 Magic Weapon must choose which specific weapon to use.

Mozzamanx wrote:
To be fair, Experiment is a Daemon player. 'Coping with it' largely amounts to abandoning large areas of the battlefield and playing keepaway for 6 turns because it's going to win every single fight it enters. The only real options are rolling against the HE players magic defense for Slaaneshii Hexes, or sacrificing 60pts a turn in chaff if he didn't elect for High Magic.

50pts is a steal for that banner even before we consider that an entire army has magic attacks.

Keeper w/Lv4 Slaanesh and 6-dice Cacophonic Choir 1st turn is our best bet. If a wound sneaks through your Keeper likely survives thanks the movement screwing, while at the very least you've nuked most/all the HE chaff and seriously neutered anything else that survives.
T2 and onwards is just throwing Acquiesence + Miasmas at it while running away for the rest of the game!

Otherwise, all we can do is conga-line a unit of Beasts/Fiends or even a Core unit into it.
Treason of Tzeentch is the least effective way of dealing with it, but if all you've got is Tzeentch then Treason + Final Trans can hopefully keep the unit Stupid.

Honestly, it's at it's worst if the HE play is running their crutch as a Lightstar. Doubly so if the Banner of Averlorn is taken. That monstrosity however is a nightmare for most everyone!

Andy140491 wrote:
Yeah I could imagine it sucks for daemon players to have to deal with an item like that :/ non the less.. surely it would have been FAQ'd if it was too much if a problem?

Regarding the keeper. I still think as far as kick ass Lords go it still sounds like chaos Lords are topping the charts. It's striking the balance between survivability and deadlyness. Dwarf Lords can be tough, and daemon Lords can be deadly, but neither both, whereas the chaos Lord can be, and I think, from what I've been told, the only close comparison is a vamp Lord, although I'd love to think an ogre tyrant could best both in killing power! It's a damn ogre Lord!

The ogre tyrant is pretty awesome and powerful character but in a grind his lack of defense, meaning the best he can get is a 3+/4++, he will lose in a grind match against things like dwarf lords and chaos lords and will not be able to put out as much damage as a greater demon. He does come stock with 5 wounds which is amazing but honestly I'd rather grind with a slaughtermaster who is a lvl4 wizard who regains a wound each successful spell cast, can get the same saves, buff himself and his unit, and to top it off immune to poison.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
How do you mean with all the toys?

Scaly skin, charmed shield, sword of striking, breath weapon, soul feeder and peripherals. Take the vamp blender lord, he hits this prince on 5s with no rerolls. Whereas the prince then slaps him back on 3s.

An Eternal Beatstick Keeper still cracks him, especially if you or any event you're in allows the rather dubious 'combine it with the ASF sword' ruling.

There's no two ways about the ruling. It's concrete in the FAQ.

Any weapon that provides a latent bonus, is always active, even if you're not using it.

So you use the ASF sword, and get the bonuses from the Eternal Blade.

Also, it depends on the roll of the combo. If you don't kill the prince before he strikes, the kipper is dead.

No, it isn't cut and dry, as our own book explicitly tells us that a Daemon who's carrying more than 1 Magic Weapon must choose which specific weapon to use.

Does the demon book have a ruling regarding the latent stay boosts, which, as the rulebook FAQ tells us, are always active, even if you aren't using that weapon?

Mozzamanx wrote:
To be fair, Experiment is a Daemon player. 'Coping with it' largely amounts to abandoning large areas of the battlefield and playing keepaway for 6 turns because it's going to win every single fight it enters. The only real options are rolling against the HE players magic defense for Slaaneshii Hexes, or sacrificing 60pts a turn in chaff if he didn't elect for High Magic.

50pts is a steal for that banner even before we consider that an entire army has magic attacks.

Fair enough. I keep forgetting BotWD is an 'I WIN' button against DOC. Noone around here plays DOC and I've never had trouble with the BotWD.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
How do you mean with all the toys?

Scaly skin, charmed shield, sword of striking, breath weapon, soul feeder and peripherals. Take the vamp blender lord, he hits this prince on 5s with no rerolls. Whereas the prince then slaps him back on 3s.

An Eternal Beatstick Keeper still cracks him, especially if you or any event you're in allows the rather dubious 'combine it with the ASF sword' ruling.

There's no two ways about the ruling. It's concrete in the FAQ.

Any weapon that provides a latent bonus, is always active, even if you're not using it.

So you use the ASF sword, and get the bonuses from the Eternal Blade.

Also, it depends on the roll of the combo. If you don't kill the prince before he strikes, the kipper is dead.

No, it isn't cut and dry, as our own book explicitly tells us that a Daemon who's carrying more than 1 Magic Weapon must choose which specific weapon to use.

Does the demon book have a ruling regarding the latent stay boosts, which, as the rulebook FAQ tells us, are always active, even if you aren't using that weapon?

Yes, the bit on pg61 regarding our Magic Weapon options, which very specifically states, "If a model ends up with two or more magic weapons, it must choose which one to use at the start of each combat." (emphasis mine)

The idea wielder vs. bearer arguments is semantics at it's finest. As a Daemon, we get told that only 1 of our weapons can be in play at any one time, no matter how many we have tucked away in a backpack or sheathed at our large gribbly's side.
Trying to argue that you can use the E.Blade while also gaining innate ASF from the Sword of Swift Slaying is strictly speaking ignoring the above rule that tells us we must pick and choose a single weapon.
(and as a note, you can only gain the E.Blade boosts when you choose to use it, as there's no 'bearer gains' or 'wielder has' nonsense to play to your advantage... Thus if a Daemon player claims, "I use the ASF Sword and gain the innate stats", they're cheating!)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
How do you mean with all the toys?

Scaly skin, charmed shield, sword of striking, breath weapon, soul feeder and peripherals. Take the vamp blender lord, he hits this prince on 5s with no rerolls. Whereas the prince then slaps him back on 3s.

An Eternal Beatstick Keeper still cracks him, especially if you or any event you're in allows the rather dubious 'combine it with the ASF sword' ruling.

There's no two ways about the ruling. It's concrete in the FAQ.

Any weapon that provides a latent bonus, is always active, even if you're not using it.

So you use the ASF sword, and get the bonuses from the Eternal Blade.

Also, it depends on the roll of the combo. If you don't kill the prince before he strikes, the kipper is dead.

No, it isn't cut and dry, as our own book explicitly tells us that a Daemon who's carrying more than 1 Magic Weapon must choose which specific weapon to use.

Does the demon book have a ruling regarding the latent stay boosts, which, as the rulebook FAQ tells us, are always active, even if you aren't using that weapon?

Yes, the bit on pg61 regarding our Magic Weapon options, which very specifically states, "If a model ends up with two or more magic weapons, it must choose which one to use at the start of each combat." (emphasis mine)

The idea wielder vs. bearer arguments is semantics at it's finest. As a Daemon, we get told that only 1 of our weapons can be in play at any one time, no matter how many we have tucked away in a backpack or sheathed at our large gribbly's side.
Trying to argue that you can use the E.Blade while also gaining innate ASF from the Sword of Swift Slaying is strictly speaking ignoring the above rule that tells us we must pick and choose a single weapon.
(and as a note, you can only gain the E.Blade boosts when you choose to use it, as there's no 'bearer gains' or 'wielder has' nonsense to play to your advantage... Thus if a Daemon player claims, "I use the ASF Sword and gain the innate stats", they're cheating!)

They aren't cheating though. You use the ASF sword to get ASF. The stat boosts given by the eternal blade are latent, so they count whether you are or aren't using the weapon. Read the BRB FAQ.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
How do you mean with all the toys?

Scaly skin, charmed shield, sword of striking, breath weapon, soul feeder and peripherals. Take the vamp blender lord, he hits this prince on 5s with no rerolls. Whereas the prince then slaps him back on 3s.

An Eternal Beatstick Keeper still cracks him, especially if you or any event you're in allows the rather dubious 'combine it with the ASF sword' ruling.

There's no two ways about the ruling. It's concrete in the FAQ.

Any weapon that provides a latent bonus, is always active, even if you're not using it.

So you use the ASF sword, and get the bonuses from the Eternal Blade.

Also, it depends on the roll of the combo. If you don't kill the prince before he strikes, the kipper is dead.

No, it isn't cut and dry, as our own book explicitly tells us that a Daemon who's carrying more than 1 Magic Weapon must choose which specific weapon to use.

Does the demon book have a ruling regarding the latent stay boosts, which, as the rulebook FAQ tells us, are always active, even if you aren't using that weapon?

Yes, the bit on pg61 regarding our Magic Weapon options, which very specifically states, "If a model ends up with two or more magic weapons, it must choose which one to use at the start of each combat." (emphasis mine)

The idea wielder vs. bearer arguments is semantics at it's finest. As a Daemon, we get told that only 1 of our weapons can be in play at any one time, no matter how many we have tucked away in a backpack or sheathed at our large gribbly's side.
Trying to argue that you can use the E.Blade while also gaining innate ASF from the Sword of Swift Slaying is strictly speaking ignoring the above rule that tells us we must pick and choose a single weapon.
(and as a note, you can only gain the E.Blade boosts when you choose to use it, as there's no 'bearer gains' or 'wielder has' nonsense to play to your advantage... Thus if a Daemon player claims, "I use the ASF Sword and gain the innate stats", they're cheating!)

They aren't cheating though. You use the ASF sword to get ASF. The stat boosts given by the eternal blade are latent, so they count whether you are or aren't using the weapon. Read the BRB FAQ.

The FAQ may open the door for Fencer's Blades shenanigans, but our Army Book trumps the BRB anyways. Our book very clearly tells us that a Daemon must pick 1 weapon.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
How do you mean with all the toys?

Scaly skin, charmed shield, sword of striking, breath weapon, soul feeder and peripherals. Take the vamp blender lord, he hits this prince on 5s with no rerolls. Whereas the prince then slaps him back on 3s.

An Eternal Beatstick Keeper still cracks him, especially if you or any event you're in allows the rather dubious 'combine it with the ASF sword' ruling.

There's no two ways about the ruling. It's concrete in the FAQ.

Any weapon that provides a latent bonus, is always active, even if you're not using it.

So you use the ASF sword, and get the bonuses from the Eternal Blade.

Also, it depends on the roll of the combo. If you don't kill the prince before he strikes, the kipper is dead.

No, it isn't cut and dry, as our own book explicitly tells us that a Daemon who's carrying more than 1 Magic Weapon must choose which specific weapon to use.

Does the demon book have a ruling regarding the latent stay boosts, which, as the rulebook FAQ tells us, are always active, even if you aren't using that weapon?

Yes, the bit on pg61 regarding our Magic Weapon options, which very specifically states, "If a model ends up with two or more magic weapons, it must choose which one to use at the start of each combat." (emphasis mine)

The idea wielder vs. bearer arguments is semantics at it's finest. As a Daemon, we get told that only 1 of our weapons can be in play at any one time, no matter how many we have tucked away in a backpack or sheathed at our large gribbly's side.
Trying to argue that you can use the E.Blade while also gaining innate ASF from the Sword of Swift Slaying is strictly speaking ignoring the above rule that tells us we must pick and choose a single weapon.
(and as a note, you can only gain the E.Blade boosts when you choose to use it, as there's no 'bearer gains' or 'wielder has' nonsense to play to your advantage... Thus if a Daemon player claims, "I use the ASF Sword and gain the innate stats", they're cheating!)

They aren't cheating though. You use the ASF sword to get ASF. The stat boosts given by the eternal blade are latent, so they count whether you are or aren't using the weapon. Read the BRB FAQ.

The FAQ may open the door for Fencer's Blades shenanigans, but our Army Book trumps the BRB anyways. Our book very clearly tells us that a Daemon must pick 1 weapon.

Yes. But as the effect is Latent, you DON'T have to choose the Eternal blade to use it, as you cannot choose not to roll for the stat boost.

626 pull open your demons book to weapons of the dark gods read how they are worded now read eternal blade i know what your saying but eternal blades bonuses are latent.

Its like piranha blade in Lizardmen

"the wielder has the multiple wounds (d3) and armour piercing special rules. This means that combined with my sacred stegadon helm i have d3 wounds and ap.

Saurus old blood on cold one in a unit with Steg helm and +3 attack sword....

ridiculous

The Chaos Lord is a tough one. Though I def think he's better off on a Disk than on the Daemonic Mount. The boosts the Daemonic Mount gives you are nice, but not so much as Fly, which helps you get into the combats you want, and only the combats you want.

In terms of raw power? I might still side with the Dwarf Lord, point-for-point. For less than 300pts, you get a WS4 A4 S6 and ASL. While that's not anything special in itself, having T6 W6 and a 1+/4+ certainly is.
Or, for a few more points, he can be S4(8 vs T5 or more) I4, and have a 2+ Ward save versus Poison and Killing Blow.
Seriously. He's literally tougher than a dragon. The only downside is that he can be Stomp'd.

Overall, I'd say the Daemon Prince is king, in terms of potential killing and staying power (Thunderstomp and Unbreakable. Enough said).

The Chaos Lord is more survivable against wounds, but has to choose his combats more carefully (static CR will break him).

And the Dwarf Lord can compete with both in terms of durability for considerably less points. The Vampire Lord is better than all of them if you want to scythe down normal troops.

Never had to face that Keeper of Secrets, sadly. He sounds pretty awesome. But his Monster status, coupled with his lack of defense and staying power, really knocks him down the overall rankings, I would say.

I'd also say the Saurus Oldblood on a Carnosaur is going to rank up there, too. T5 1+/4+ with S5+ and S7 (D3 wounds) and Thunderstomp is pretty sick.

Ogre Tyrants...meh. As said, they're just too fragile.

Bretonnian Lords are probably near the top, but cost too much and are too fragile and inflexible by comparison.

...and the best Lord, across the whole game? The above doesn't matter. If the model can't be a lvl4 Wizard, look elsewhere.
Which brings me to my conclusion: the Daemon Prince and the Vampire Lord. They're both great combatants, and they can both be lvl4 Wizards.

Best combat lord is a Lord of Change. End of discussion. Level 4. Eternal blade and ASF sword.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Best combat lord is a Lord of Change. End of discussion. Level 4. Eternal blade and ASF sword.

No, the Keeper w/Eternal Blade kicks the living shot out of any other Greater. Max WS/I and 7-9 attacks.

The LoC needs to roll a 5 or 6 to realistically stand a chance vs. an E.blade Keeper, not to mention the Keeper is hands down a far superior wizard due to both it's spell lores being among the game's best... Shadow magic for neutering stats in general + Mindrazzor/Pit, or else the even better Slaanesh lore which just makes Tzeentch magic look like a bad joke.

The only area the LoC is better is that it can fly. Still, with M10, that Keeper is almost as flexible.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Best combat lord is a Lord of Change. End of discussion. Level 4. Eternal blade and ASF sword.

No, the Keeper w/Eternal Blade kicks the living shot out of any other Greater. Max WS/I and 7-9 attacks.

The LoC needs to roll a 5 or 6 to realistically stand a chance vs. an E.blade Keeper, not to mention the Keeper is hands down a far superior wizard due to both it's spell lores being among the game's best... Shadow magic for neutering stats in general + Mindrazzor/Pit, or else the even better Slaanesh lore which just makes Tzeentch magic look like a bad joke.

The only area the LoC is better is that it can fly. Still, with M10, that Keeper is almost as flexible.

I'd argue it the opposite way.

Sure, the choice of lores are better, but the shadow list kind of sticks you on a single path. High Initiative troops.

Plus, I'd rate fly over all that, with the possibility of giving my Plaguebearers armour piercing, rolling final trans, or, and this is the most important, guaranteeing Gateway on a horror unit.

Statwise, he's not the best, but the chicken is, by far, the best lord the demons book has, just for sheer versatility.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Best combat lord is a Lord of Change. End of discussion. Level 4. Eternal blade and ASF sword.

No, the Keeper w/Eternal Blade kicks the living shot out of any other Greater. Max WS/I and 7-9 attacks.

The LoC needs to roll a 5 or 6 to realistically stand a chance vs. an E.blade Keeper, not to mention the Keeper is hands down a far superior wizard due to both it's spell lores being among the game's best... Shadow magic for neutering stats in general + Mindrazzor/Pit, or else the even better Slaanesh lore which just makes Tzeentch magic look like a bad joke.

The only area the LoC is better is that it can fly. Still, with M10, that Keeper is almost as flexible.

I'd argue it the opposite way.

Sure, the choice of lores are better, but the shadow list kind of sticks you on a single path. High Initiative troops.

Plus, I'd rate fly over all that, with the possibility of giving my Plaguebearers armour piercing, rolling final trans, or, and this is the most important, guaranteeing Gateway on a horror unit.

Statwise, he's not the best, but the chicken is, by far, the best lord the demons book has, just for sheer versatility.

No, it really isn't...

Sure, Shadow magic is somewhat of a waste on the Keeper, but Slaany magic is the outright best lore in the DoC book. Gateway can be had easily through Tzheralds and the fact that everyone and their mother fields Horrors in bricks of 10, with maybe one or two 15 bricks in compy events.
Slaany magic though has both Caco Choir (game-breaking), Acquiescence (unit wrecking & movement controlling), Phantasma for Ld bombing, Frenzy for baiting and Slicing Shards for damage. (which pairs amazingly with Phantasma)

Tzeentch magic can't even begin to hold a candle to what a Lv4 Keeper can bring. (Cacobombing is arguably hands down superior to Final Trans, due to the AoE boost, and the movement fething.)

The only reason to take the Chicken is for personal preference/theme. Competitively, the Keeper is light years ahead of him, while even Papa Nurgle edges him out thanks to being harder to kill + Death magic.

Yeah the chicken o' doom is probably the 3rd best Greater demon.

I wish the blood thirster was better.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Best combat lord is a Lord of Change. End of discussion. Level 4. Eternal blade and ASF sword.

No, the Keeper w/Eternal Blade kicks the living shot out of any other Greater. Max WS/I and 7-9 attacks.

The LoC needs to roll a 5 or 6 to realistically stand a chance vs. an E.blade Keeper, not to mention the Keeper is hands down a far superior wizard due to both it's spell lores being among the game's best... Shadow magic for neutering stats in general + Mindrazzor/Pit, or else the even better Slaanesh lore which just makes Tzeentch magic look like a bad joke.

The only area the LoC is better is that it can fly. Still, with M10, that Keeper is almost as flexible.

I'd argue it the opposite way.

Sure, the choice of lores are better, but the shadow list kind of sticks you on a single path. High Initiative troops.

Plus, I'd rate fly over all that, with the possibility of giving my Plaguebearers armour piercing, rolling final trans, or, and this is the most important, guaranteeing Gateway on a horror unit.

Statwise, he's not the best, but the chicken is, by far, the best lord the demons book has, just for sheer versatility.

No, it really isn't...

Sure, Shadow magic is somewhat of a waste on the Keeper, but Slaany magic is the outright best lore in the DoC book. Gateway can be had easily through Tzheralds and the fact that everyone and their mother fields Horrors in bricks of 10, with maybe one or two 15 bricks in compy events.
Slaany magic though has both Caco Choir (game-breaking), Acquiescence (unit wrecking & movement controlling), Phantasma for Ld bombing, Frenzy for baiting and Slicing Shards for damage. (which pairs amazingly with Phantasma)

Tzeentch magic can't even begin to hold a candle to what a Lv4 Keeper can bring. (Cacobombing is arguably hands down superior to Final Trans, due to the AoE boost, and the movement fething.)

The only reason to take the Chicken is for personal preference/theme. Competitively, the Keeper is light years ahead of him, while even Papa Nurgle edges him out thanks to being harder to kill + Death magic.

Wait, what?

The Keeper is a more competitive choice? Unlikely. Sure, you may find cacophonic choir to be good. But nine times out of ten in competitive play, if I face demons, it's got a chicken. The other time, it's the herald list. With the Eternal Blade, the stats don't really matter. You're going first and hitting on threes anyway. The higher they are, the more redundancy the blade gives you. It's why you never take it on a Bloodthirster. With the chicken, if you roll a 1/2, you still get a fair amount of usage out if it. Whereas with the Kipper, you might as well have not taken it if you roll a 1/2 because it makes little to no difference. and even then, with the chicken, you still have the option of sitting 36" away and nuking your target. Which is better than the AoE cacophonic choir, because you can hide him behind terrain. All the AoE in the world won't matter against Empire, Dwarfs or OnG. The Kipper is still dead in the water, no matter how you look at it.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Best combat lord is a Lord of Change. End of discussion. Level 4. Eternal blade and ASF sword.

No, the Keeper w/Eternal Blade kicks the living shot out of any other Greater. Max WS/I and 7-9 attacks.

The LoC needs to roll a 5 or 6 to realistically stand a chance vs. an E.blade Keeper, not to mention the Keeper is hands down a far superior wizard due to both it's spell lores being among the game's best... Shadow magic for neutering stats in general + Mindrazzor/Pit, or else the even better Slaanesh lore which just makes Tzeentch magic look like a bad joke.

The only area the LoC is better is that it can fly. Still, with M10, that Keeper is almost as flexible.

I'd argue it the opposite way.

Sure, the choice of lores are better, but the shadow list kind of sticks you on a single path. High Initiative troops.

Plus, I'd rate fly over all that, with the possibility of giving my Plaguebearers armour piercing, rolling final trans, or, and this is the most important, guaranteeing Gateway on a horror unit.

Statwise, he's not the best, but the chicken is, by far, the best lord the demons book has, just for sheer versatility.

No, it really isn't...

Sure, Shadow magic is somewhat of a waste on the Keeper, but Slaany magic is the outright best lore in the DoC book. Gateway can be had easily through Tzheralds and the fact that everyone and their mother fields Horrors in bricks of 10, with maybe one or two 15 bricks in compy events.
Slaany magic though has both Caco Choir (game-breaking), Acquiescence (unit wrecking & movement controlling), Phantasma for Ld bombing, Frenzy for baiting and Slicing Shards for damage. (which pairs amazingly with Phantasma)

Tzeentch magic can't even begin to hold a candle to what a Lv4 Keeper can bring. (Cacobombing is arguably hands down superior to Final Trans, due to the AoE boost, and the movement fething.)

The only reason to take the Chicken is for personal preference/theme. Competitively, the Keeper is light years ahead of him, while even Papa Nurgle edges him out thanks to being harder to kill + Death magic.

Wait, what?

The Keeper is a more competitive choice? Unlikely. Sure, you may find cacophonic choir to be good. But nine times out of ten in competitive play, if I face demons, it's got a chicken. The other time, it's the herald list. With the Eternal Blade, the stats don't really matter. You're going first and hitting on threes anyway. The higher they are, the more redundancy the blade gives you. It's why you never take it on a Bloodthirster. With the chicken, if you roll a 1/2, you still get a fair amount of usage out if it. Whereas with the Kipper, you might as well have not taken it if you roll a 1/2 because it makes little to no difference. and even then, with the chicken, you still have the option of sitting 36" away and nuking your target. Which is better than the AoE cacophonic choir, because you can hide him behind terrain. All the AoE in the world won't matter against Empire, Dwarfs or OnG. The Kipper is still dead in the water, no matter how you look at it.

Even with the Eternal beatstick, the stats still matter. A Kipper with the Blade is pretty much immune now to hexes targeting WS/I, whereas the Chicken can still take a bit of a hit. Especially in Shadow heavy environments, the difference is noticeable.
Besides, the E.Blade allows the Kipper to pretty much walk through just about anything your opponent can throw at it. The Chicken still needs to be careful in choosing his fights because he's relying heavily on rolling a 5/6 vs. targets such as other monsters/ridden monsters and combat Lords.

Final Trans in no way tops Caco Choir. Turn 1, a Kipper can march up to the most dangerous part of the enemy army with a screen of Fiends out front to protect from missile fire, blast off Caco, nuke any chaff/war machines in range, screw over any unit taking at least 1 casualty, and then grow a potentially obnoxious number of new Fiends to add to the 3-4 screening it.
I've seen the Daemon player gain 5-6+ new Fiends out of a single bombing. And all those ranked units that took a hit are pretty much useless for two turns, which is more than enough for a good player to turn into an auto-win.
With a 20" movement, Caco is easily capable of getting it's AoE bubble to hit back line supporters, unless your opponent is risking deploying 6" or less from the board edge. 2D6/wound on 4+ hits, no armour saves is more than enough to kill any war machine bar the Hellcannon. (but that's more of a monster anyways.)
The only metas the Kipper & Caco Choir suffer in are those playing special snowflake ETChammer in their singles events, as you really do require the 6-dicing due to the 24+ to-cast for the AoE effect.

Over hear, the Kipper is no.1 by a mile, with Papa Nurgle coming in second. Even in HE heavy environments, the Kipper is seeing more play than the LoC as Final Trans can be gotten easily enough through Tzheralds, while the Slaany spells do a much better job of controlling the field and clearing chaff. (which is the key to scraping a possible minor victory from any BotWD army!)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Best combat lord is a Lord of Change. End of discussion. Level 4. Eternal blade and ASF sword.

No, the Keeper w/Eternal Blade kicks the living shot out of any other Greater. Max WS/I and 7-9 attacks.

The LoC needs to roll a 5 or 6 to realistically stand a chance vs. an E.blade Keeper, not to mention the Keeper is hands down a far superior wizard due to both it's spell lores being among the game's best... Shadow magic for neutering stats in general + Mindrazzor/Pit, or else the even better Slaanesh lore which just makes Tzeentch magic look like a bad joke.

The only area the LoC is better is that it can fly. Still, with M10, that Keeper is almost as flexible.

I'd argue it the opposite way.

Sure, the choice of lores are better, but the shadow list kind of sticks you on a single path. High Initiative troops.

Plus, I'd rate fly over all that, with the possibility of giving my Plaguebearers armour piercing, rolling final trans, or, and this is the most important, guaranteeing Gateway on a horror unit.

Statwise, he's not the best, but the chicken is, by far, the best lord the demons book has, just for sheer versatility.

No, it really isn't...

Sure, Shadow magic is somewhat of a waste on the Keeper, but Slaany magic is the outright best lore in the DoC book. Gateway can be had easily through Tzheralds and the fact that everyone and their mother fields Horrors in bricks of 10, with maybe one or two 15 bricks in compy events.
Slaany magic though has both Caco Choir (game-breaking), Acquiescence (unit wrecking & movement controlling), Phantasma for Ld bombing, Frenzy for baiting and Slicing Shards for damage. (which pairs amazingly with Phantasma)

Tzeentch magic can't even begin to hold a candle to what a Lv4 Keeper can bring. (Cacobombing is arguably hands down superior to Final Trans, due to the AoE boost, and the movement fething.)

The only reason to take the Chicken is for personal preference/theme. Competitively, the Keeper is light years ahead of him, while even Papa Nurgle edges him out thanks to being harder to kill + Death magic.

Wait, what?

The Keeper is a more competitive choice? Unlikely. Sure, you may find cacophonic choir to be good. But nine times out of ten in competitive play, if I face demons, it's got a chicken. The other time, it's the herald list. With the Eternal Blade, the stats don't really matter. You're going first and hitting on threes anyway. The higher they are, the more redundancy the blade gives you. It's why you never take it on a Bloodthirster. With the chicken, if you roll a 1/2, you still get a fair amount of usage out if it. Whereas with the Kipper, you might as well have not taken it if you roll a 1/2 because it makes little to no difference. and even then, with the chicken, you still have the option of sitting 36" away and nuking your target. Which is better than the AoE cacophonic choir, because you can hide him behind terrain. All the AoE in the world won't matter against Empire, Dwarfs or OnG. The Kipper is still dead in the water, no matter how you look at it.

Even with the Eternal beatstick, the stats still matter. A Kipper with the Blade is pretty much immune now to hexes targeting WS/I, whereas the Chicken can still take a bit of a hit. Especially in Shadow heavy environments, the difference is noticeable.
Besides, the E.Blade allows the Kipper to pretty much walk through just about anything your opponent can throw at it. The Chicken still needs to be careful in choosing his fights because he's relying heavily on rolling a 5/6 vs. targets such as other monsters/ridden monsters and combat Lords.

Final Trans in no way tops Caco Choir. Turn 1, a Kipper can march up to the most dangerous part of the enemy army with a screen of Fiends out front to protect from missile fire, blast off Caco, nuke any chaff/war machines in range, screw over any unit taking at least 1 casualty, and then grow a potentially obnoxious number of new Fiends to add to the 3-4 screening it.
I've seen the Daemon player gain 5-6+ new Fiends out of a single bombing. And all those ranked units that took a hit are pretty much useless for two turns, which is more than enough for a good player to turn into an auto-win.
With a 20" movement, Caco is easily capable of getting it's AoE bubble to hit back line supporters, unless your opponent is risking deploying 6" or less from the board edge. 2D6/wound on 4+ hits, no armour saves is more than enough to kill any war machine bar the Hellcannon. (but that's more of a monster anyways.)
The only metas the Kipper & Caco Choir suffer in are those playing special snowflake ETChammer in their singles events, as you really do require the 6-dicing due to the 24+ to-cast for the AoE effect.

Over hear, the Kipper is no.1 by a mile, with Papa Nurgle coming in second. Even in HE heavy environments, the Kipper is seeing more play than the LoC as Final Trans can be gotten easily enough through Tzheralds, while the Slaany spells do a much better job of controlling the field and clearing chaff. (which is the key to scraping a possible minor victory from any BotWD army!)

Yes. The Kipper becomes immune to most things. But, that in of itself is a high level of redundancy. The Kipper doesn't need the blade. He can get by with the fencers and ASF. Whereas the Chicken gets more mileage out of the combo. If you roll low on the kipper, you'll barely notice the difference. But with the chicken, any roll will be noticeable. It isn't a question of what will the high end rolls do, but more of what will the low end rolls do.

And furthermore, if one cacophonic choir results in an autowin, then you deserve to lose. End of story. It doesn't take much to avoid that.

As for the movement. it's not the distance that matters, but the ability to hide. As for the war machines, have you played empire/OnG? Dwarves to an extent, but they're corner hammer. Nine times out of ten, the Empire/OnG player will have their war machines spread out along the board edge. At that point, the Kipper is dead. With the Chicken, you can use terrain to dodge cannons, without impeding your casting. Even if he's on Tzeentch, he's still infinitely more versatile as you don't have to spend points on a tonne of models that do nothing and are fragile. One character who can fight, fly and cast as well as guarantee gateway on horrors, is FAR more versatile than a move 10" monster. Plus, shadow isn't that a competitive lore anymore. If you want to go for a BRB lore, go metal or death. They do far more for the demons book as a whole than shadow. As they buff all the core, as opposed to letters and 'nettes.

As for the ETC comp, that's the point. The pack is designed to encourage people to play Ogres.

I'm not even going to go into the whole BoTWD debate. The only time I've seen it make a difference is on the internet. I've seen a demon army table a BoTWD light council list before. Furthermore, this is also when metal magic comes into play.

I've not seen a whole lot of Keepers being the big boy in the Midwest US, but I see a fair mix or none. I've even seen a few thirsters. I prefer LOC in my themed TZ/Khorne list, but overall I prefer Fateweaver in a 3k mixed list. I think the LOC taking TZ is good. Treason is super silly. Glean is also great on the LOC, a lot of people take a scroll caddy lv 2 beasts, death, fire are common. All have great spells for the LOC. Pink fire is a lot of fun. Can take a unit of 3 screamers to super silly sizes fast.

Choir as good as it is. I've watched people get pretty cocky with it. on two separate occasions. I've seen people run a keeper deep on turn one, and pull it off, and carefully plan to be 7" out from my units, forgetting that TK can move in the magic phase and bam! Got em with a 9 chariot bus smoked him before he swung one game the other I put 6 GW ubshati in his rear.

We have a lot of undead in the Midwest, and I'm pretty sure VC can still move in the magic phase. So maybe that has kept the choir bombs for being very prominent.

Regardless, I put the Warrior's Daemon Prince far, far ahead of any of them. He's an Unbreakable (not Unstable) lvl4 Wizard. With a 1+/5+(2+). Just can't beat that.

Warpsolution wrote:
Regardless, I put the Warrior's Daemon Prince far, far ahead of any of them. He's an Unbreakable (not Unstable) lvl4 Wizard. With a 1+/5+(2+). Just can't beat that.

A bloodthirster beats him. As does the Eternal+ASF chicken or Kipper. Statwise, the three have the attacks, weapon skill, and initiative, to take at least 2/3 wounds off the thing in a round, if not killing it.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Regardless, I put the Warrior's Daemon Prince far, far ahead of any of them. He's an Unbreakable (not Unstable) lvl4 Wizard. With a 1+/5+(2+). Just can't beat that.

A bloodthirster beats him. As does the Eternal+ASF chicken or Kipper. Statwise, the three have the attacks, weapon skill, and initiative, to take at least 2/3 wounds off the thing in a round, if not killing it.

Not to mention the chicken could possibly take, bolt or gateway.

 Acardia wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Regardless, I put the Warrior's Daemon Prince far, far ahead of any of them. He's an Unbreakable (not Unstable) lvl4 Wizard. With a 1+/5+(2+). Just can't beat that.

A bloodthirster beats him. As does the Eternal+ASF chicken or Kipper. Statwise, the three have the attacks, weapon skill, and initiative, to take at least 2/3 wounds off the thing in a round, if not killing it.

Not to mention the chicken could possibly take, bolt or gateway.

The Chicken should never, ever take Gateway, unless you're running 0 Horrors.

The Kipper w/Beatstick clocks the WoC Prince the best. LoC needs a high roll to gain the stats, otherwise he's swinging after the Prince.
The Kipper even when pooching the E.Blade roll averages around 2.4 wounds per round, while the Prince is lucky to sneak a wound through in return. Plus with the added Armour Piercing bonus, even a S7 Kipper is -5 to that armour save, vs. only -4 when the LoC rolls a 1/2 for the E.Blade's bonus stats.

I'd put the GUO as better at killing the WoC DP than the 'Thirster however, as Papa Nurgle get the Balesword which is murderous against monsters. Getting him into actual with the DP is arguably not likely, but *if* he gets there, he's still slightly more efficient at actually killing the Prince.
The 'Thirster rolling 2x Lesser Gifts is honestly hoping for the Multiple Wound result. At which point all monsters should be running the hell away from him!

first note, I always thought that the eternal blade gave you +1 Strenght, +D3 WS,I,A.

But, best WHFB Character, my choice is just on pure cheese alone, the fact he's not over 250 points, and may not even get to attack, and will die if someone get four hits on him, but it has to be the......
Skaven Warlord, on a bonebreaker, with that little sword the Fellblade.
Yeah, you mount him on the bonebreaker to increase his toughness, which maybe means he does not die beofer he gets to attack, but when he does attack, he will kill any onther character in the game, Str10 D6 wounds, re-roll ward saves is just such fun.
True, he might just kill himself before he ever gets nito combat, but so what, you got a rat with the best sword in the game, enjoy it

im not gonna lie but i love the bretonian lord that is kitted out with the virtue of the ideal the sword of the lady's champion and the gromril great helm with the tress of isould and gauntlet of the duel. oh and grail vow....... that means ur ws8 s (always 1 higher than your opponents toughness) hitting on 2+ for a round and a character cant refuse your challenges as well as having a 1+ rerollable armour save along with the bretonnic ward saves which due tor the tress is always a 5+ ...... that is a pretty beat stick character....... ws8. w3. initiative8. 5 attacks........ouch and its cheaper than a standard chaos lord with a mark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry it works out to be 297 points and the tress of isoulde is actually the mantle which means hes immune to killing blow and poisoned attacks

You know. During all this talk about demon lords. I forgot about Caradryan.

As of now ALL of your opinions are invalid. Nagash rules the roost now!

Level 5 Wizard with 7's and 6's across the board, protected by a 4+/4++ armed with a weapon which does D3 wounds and he can expend a power die to cause an attack to cause heroic killing blow. Not to mention he can summon ENTIRE ARMIES.

Nagash wins, but for 1000 flippin' points i'd hope so!

@zinogre: I've never seen the Virtue of the Ideal on the table, actually. It's always Heroism and Confidence.

Know what's better than any Bretonnian Lord, though? The Prophetess sitting behind the Lord and his two Paladins, giving them each +3S and +3A.

@ALEXisAWESOME: Nagash...is a character, now? What?