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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

Maybe they pledge themselves to Chaos in a ruse to fool Chaos into given them power of Chaos to destroy the enemies of Chaos and in turn destroy Chaos itself.

Except Tzeentch is all knowing. Really, there's no good argument that the Alpha Legion remain loyal, rather the Cabal or Chaos (probably Chaos manipulating the Cabal) tricked the Alpha Legion into turning traitor, something they could never emerge from intact.

If Tzeentch were all knowing he would have known that the Horus Heresy would have failed.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

Maybe they pledge themselves to Chaos in a ruse to fool Chaos into given them power of Chaos to destroy the enemies of Chaos and in turn destroy Chaos itself.

Except Tzeentch is all knowing. Really, there's no good argument that the Alpha Legion remain loyal, rather the Cabal or Chaos (probably Chaos manipulating the Cabal) tricked the Alpha Legion into turning traitor, something they could never emerge from intact.

If Tzeentch were all knowing he would have known that the Horus Heresy would have failed.

I believe you took that out of context. Tzeentch knows almost all that is possible to know in the present but he can't foresee that far in the future.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

Maybe they pledge themselves to Chaos in a ruse to fool Chaos into given them power of Chaos to destroy the enemies of Chaos and in turn destroy Chaos itself.

Except Tzeentch is all knowing. Really, there's no good argument that the Alpha Legion remain loyal, rather the Cabal or Chaos (probably Chaos manipulating the Cabal) tricked the Alpha Legion into turning traitor, something they could never emerge from intact.

If Tzeentch were all knowing he would have known that the Horus Heresy would have failed.

The Horus Heresy didn't fail, Chaos got everything it ever wanted from the ending.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

Maybe they pledge themselves to Chaos in a ruse to fool Chaos into given them power of Chaos to destroy the enemies of Chaos and in turn destroy Chaos itself.

Except Tzeentch is all knowing. Really, there's no good argument that the Alpha Legion remain loyal, rather the Cabal or Chaos (probably Chaos manipulating the Cabal) tricked the Alpha Legion into turning traitor, something they could never emerge from intact.

If Tzeentch were all knowing he would have known that the Horus Heresy would have failed.

I believe you took that out of context. Tzeentch knows almost all that is possible to know in the present but he can't foresee that far in the future.

But Tzeentch doesn't know the thoughts of Alpharius or the Alpha Legion as a whole. All it is possible to know is that they fight for Chaos.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

Maybe they pledge themselves to Chaos in a ruse to fool Chaos into given them power of Chaos to destroy the enemies of Chaos and in turn destroy Chaos itself.

Except Tzeentch is all knowing. Really, there's no good argument that the Alpha Legion remain loyal, rather the Cabal or Chaos (probably Chaos manipulating the Cabal) tricked the Alpha Legion into turning traitor, something they could never emerge from intact.

If Tzeentch were all knowing he would have known that the Horus Heresy would have failed.

I believe you took that out of context. Tzeentch knows almost all that is possible to know in the present but he can't foresee that far in the future.

But Tzeentch doesn't know the thoughts of Alpharius or the Alpha Legion as a whole. All it is possible to know is that they fight for Chaos.

To make this very simple, it is most likely Alpharius and his legion who were being toyed with, not vice versa. I mean, it isn't proven so you can of course choose to believe Alpharius knew exactly what he was doing. You can also choose to believe that regardless of the Alpha Legions intentions, they didn't somehow devote themselves fully to Chaos after chilling with demomic entities for 10,000 years.

I personally don't care for what reasons they want to exterminate humanity, only that it is clear THAT is exactly what they are trying to do. Destroying humanity realisticly won't help anything. Chaos will find more sentient races throughout the galaxy in which to get their emotional power from.

The Lexicanum describes that Alpharius took the role given to him by the Cabal because it was described that humanity would die out inside of 2 generations if Horus failed.

10,000 years and way more than 2 generations later, the Alpha Legion still fights to topple the Imperium rather than admit they might have been misled.

BTW Alpharius helped plan the Dropsite Massacre.

 AWesker1976 wrote:
The Lexicanum describes that Alpharius took the role given to him by the Cabal because it was described that humanity would die out inside of 2 generations if Horus failed.

10,000 years and way more than 2 generations later, the Alpha Legion still fights to topple the Imperium rather than admit they might have been misled.

BTW Alpharius helped plan the Dropsite Massacre.

Actually, it was if Horus won that humanity would become extinct after 2-3 generations. Tbey also said if the Emperor won humanity would live on for 10,000-20,000 years before beimg swallowed up by Chaos.

Now with this beng said, there are 2 things to think about.

1. The Alpha Legion obviously failed in aiding Horus kill the Emperor so it can easily be assumed that since then they have now permanently fallen to Chaos.

2. If the Cabal are right then humanity is doomed anyway.

So either way, the Alpha Legion failed their objective and they now walk the path of damnation. Besides, Horus and all the other primarchs were manipulated in some fashion so who's to say Alpharius wasn't manipulated by the mysterius Cabal?

A lot of shrouded truths and ambiguous scenarios, so all is believeable but in the end...Chaos.........Rules

 AWesker1976 wrote:
The Lexicanum describes that Alpharius took the role given to him by the Cabal because it was described that humanity would die out inside of 2 generations if Horus failed.

10,000 years and way more than 2 generations later, the Alpha Legion still fights to topple the Imperium rather than admit they might have been misled.

BTW Alpharius helped plan the Dropsite Massacre.

More likely is that the Cabal was full of gak. Eldar may be the premiere experts on Chaos, but they lack clear clairvoyance. Hell Eldar sometimes even interpret their own prophecies wrong. If anything the Cabal was just another Tzeentch puppet used to set up more pawns.

It seems with the AL that it might be a ruse to fool chaos labeling them traitors to the imperium thinking they are fooling chaos when chaos is already fooling them which in result fools chaos because the secret gift no one knows about with the AL had something to do with them double fooling chaos which then asks the question.......

Who is fooling who here? Maybe that gift the emperor talked about was to to be able to create a legion which could slip undetected into chaos withstand its influence but then become able to use chaos on chaos. Who knows? It's giving me a brain pain though.

Remember you would need to do devastating things to your own kind to prove to the enemy you were on their side.

 kerikhaos wrote:
It seems with the AL that it might be a ruse to fool chaos labeling them traitors to the imperium thinking they are fooling chaos when chaos is already fooling them which in result fools chaos because the secret gift no one knows about with the AL had something to do with them double fooling chaos which then asks the question.......

Who is fooling who here? Maybe that gift the emperor talked about was to to be able to create a legion which could slip undetected into chaos withstand its influence but then become able to use chaos on chaos. Who knows? It's giving me a brain pain though.

Remember you would need to do devastating things to your own kind to prove to the enemy you were on their side.

Uh, no, it's quite simple. Nobody turns to Chaos and remains untainted. The Alpha Legion may originally have held good intentions, but by M41 they have a daemon prince, suffer from mutations, employ their own sorcerers, have chaos cults, and have by and large almost completely deteriorated looking at the Alpha Legion Chaos Lords in DOW.

 kerikhaos wrote:
It seems with the AL that it might be a ruse to fool chaos labeling them traitors to the imperium thinking they are fooling chaos when chaos is already fooling them which in result fools chaos because the secret gift no one knows about with the AL had something to do with them double fooling chaos which then asks the question.......

Who is fooling who here? Maybe that gift the emperor talked about was to to be able to create a legion which could slip undetected into chaos withstand its influence but then become able to use chaos on chaos. Who knows? It's giving me a brain pain though.

Remember you would need to do devastating things to your own kind to prove to the enemy you were on their side.

Just as the Emperor told Horus before the final conflict. (paraphrased) Chaos is always the Master, never the servant.

again im thrown to think otherwise......

there are demon princes - there would have to be to prove allegiance with chaos

there are mutations - of course a must have also

sorcerers and cults - again a must have to prove your sided with chaos

but the fact remain they are not all tainted with these effects and it goes again to prove that you must mask your true agenda by sacrificing heavily.

As sanguinious knew his fate so may the AL. They are a means to an end and its possible that their abilities which were made unknown to the rest of the imperium quite possible to lay as a sleeping giant within the heart of chaos.

The AL at present are traitors, no doubt about that but there are too many unknowns to their game to be clear cut chaos driven. They still operate independently and play that hide and seek tact which confuses the enemy before striking. They seem still unique in their characteristics but keep to themselves far far away.

My personally opinion (what id hope to hear in the future) is that they are the legion which double plays chaos and return to being the proper form of themselves. It makes sense and leaves room for multiple possibilities but because of the historical question marks and the fact most of them still don't go hanging out in the warp which is unusual for chaos touched beings something tells me these guys are waiting to do something big sometime soon.

I guess watch this space

Regardless of their intent, the AL have taken direct action against Imperial locations and Imperial organizations. It would be very hard to claim that they are, at this point, playing a long-con game. Maybe at one point, but I would posit that they long ago lost focus on that, and are so deep undercover that even they don't know it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Regardless of their intent, the AL have taken direct action against Imperial locations and Imperial organizations. It would be very hard to claim that they are, at this point, playing a long-con game. Maybe at one point, but I would posit that they long ago lost focus on that, and are so deep undercover that even they don't know it.

Agreed. Whatever their intentions may have been, they most certainly serve Chaos at this point whether they like/know it or not.

they still seem off being totally chaos that's im saying. they got the characters and the colours, they talk the talk and walk the walk but some behavior attributes just doesn't quite sound like the standard chaos we all know. I dunno, its true they may have fallen so deep into their own act they don't really identify themselves as being chaos which makes it even more so complicated for them as a reality.

its a question of how the fluff sounds to the individual end of the day. Id like to see them do a U-turn but for that to happen something else must be introduced to the GW universe and that something will obviously call for this dramatic event im hoping to see in the future. The same with the secrets of the 2nd legion and the other one which went missing, destroyed etc etc. Someones got to give us more details on these guys soon for heaven sake

 kerikhaos wrote:
they still seem off being totally chaos that's im saying. they got the characters and the colours, they talk the talk and walk the walk but some behavior attributes just doesn't quite sound like the standard chaos we all know. I dunno, its true they may have fallen so deep into their own act they don't really identify themselves as being chaos which makes it even more so complicated for them as a reality.

its a question of how the fluff sounds to the individual end of the day. Id like to see them do a U-turn but for that to happen something else must be introduced to the GW universe and that something will obviously call for this dramatic event im hoping to see in the future. The same with the secrets of the 2nd legion and the other one which went missing, destroyed etc etc. Someones got to give us more details on these guys soon for heaven sake

Then provide at least one source of an Alpha Legion as of M41 that doesn't appear to be chaotic, otherwise your point is baseless.

 kerikhaos wrote:
they still seem off being totally chaos that's im saying. they got the characters and the colours, they talk the talk and walk the walk but some behavior attributes just doesn't quite sound like the standard chaos we all know. I dunno, its true they may have fallen so deep into their own act they don't really identify themselves as being chaos which makes it even more so complicated for them as a reality.

its a question of how the fluff sounds to the individual end of the day. Id like to see them do a U-turn but for that to happen something else must be introduced to the GW universe and that something will obviously call for this dramatic event im hoping to see in the future. The same with the secrets of the 2nd legion and the other one which went missing, destroyed etc etc. Someones got to give us more details on these guys soon for heaven sake

Basically, you have to ask the question, "In what way has the Alpha Legion furthered the goals or defense of the Imperium?" Without any evidence to indicate that they have accomplished this goal in any meaningful, intended way, we can only conclude that they have not done so, and thus are not working for the good of the Imperium.

not saying they are favoring the imperium nor want to prove they are good inside either. Its the fact that im pushing they are moving towards their own personal goals and to be fair they could of also had a fall out with the emperor prior to heresy which could of broken their loyal bond as it did with half of the other primarchs. Im saying they still maybe in control of their destiny and not just puppets of chaos.

That in short means continue to do chaotic deeds obviously to hide their true agenda to chaos but at the same time ready a strike at chaos for again a personal objective. The AL may also be in split conducts....they may even themselves not be sure of their comrades of how deep they have fallen to chaos or not their job remember is to be super covert about everything....so even locally within their ranks they may be fooling eachother...who knows truly after all their head spin type characteristics?

They don't want to be with the imperium, nor with chaos and playing them both....obviously chaos is a higher power to them so they choose to wield the chaos power....its obvious.

Obviously im not proving they are still with the imperium I said I would like to see a U-turn. My opinion is they are so much a chameleon legion who actually knows what their doing?

Does the Alpha Legion take their orders from the Imperium? No. Therefore they are traitors.

Are they working for Chaos? Considering everything going on in the galaxy (other than those pesky 'nids) has ultimately led to the betterment of Chaos then the answer is Yes. Then again, so is the Imperium.

Which leaves us with: Are they intentionally working for Chaos? This is a bit longer:

Given that Astartes of all stripes are supposed to be highly intelligent creatures and that the Alpha legion prides itself on intelligence gathering etc, then it makes sense that they are fully aware that the only real way to destroy Chaos would be to eliminate all psychic individuals. It's a given that the Human race has been evolving more and more psychic powers. So, if the Alpha Legion's goal is to oppose Chaos then they should be prosecuting a war that would lead to the complete destruction of humanity - and likely every other race in the galaxy.

Which is complete insanity. After all, killing something to "protect it" is pretty stupid.

This means the only real solution is to play both sides to keep the status quo. ... Which is exactly what both Chaos and the Imperium want and means they are, at least sometimes, intentionally working for Chaos.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 AWesker1976 wrote:
The Lexicanum describes that Alpharius took the role given to him by the Cabal because it was described that humanity would die out inside of 2 generations if Horus failed.

10,000 years and way more than 2 generations later, the Alpha Legion still fights to topple the Imperium rather than admit they might have been misled.

BTW Alpharius helped plan the Dropsite Massacre.

More likely is that the Cabal was full of gak. Eldar may be the premiere experts on Chaos, but they lack clear clairvoyance. Hell Eldar sometimes even interpret their own prophecies wrong. If anything the Cabal was just another Tzeentch puppet used to set up more pawns.

This is how I see it, they were duped by Chaos. The Acuity showed them one path, and it was the one path that Chaos wanted them on. The Acuity I guess gleans one of the 10,000 paths from the warp and what is the warp ... the Realm of Chaos

They have spent the greater part of 10, 000 years in the eye of terror. If chaos hasn't touched them there in all that time... well chaos is a lot weaker in its influence than the fluff would lead us to believe.

Poly Ranger wrote:
They have spent the greater part of 10, 000 years in the eye of terror. If chaos hasn't touched them there in all that time... well chaos is a lot weaker in its influence than the fluff would lead us to believe.

This is true of most of the Chaos Legions but not the Alpha Legion, some possibly fled to the Eye over time but after the Heresy it's noted in their IA article that most did not join the other traitors.

However it is thought that the majority of the legion did not flee into the Eye of Terror with the other rebels, instead remaining within the Imperium. Numerous secret bases were already in existence, and the legion fragmented itself in order to hide itself in the midst of its enemies.

His legion never took a single world as their base, instead operating from various secret locations throughout the Imperium. Many of these bases have been uncovered and destroyed over the millennia following the Heresy, although often they had been deserted by the traitors by the time they were found.

While the Alpha legion does not reside in the Eye o Terror, and therefore is not plagued by the Warping effects of that maelstrom of insanity, there is still evidence of mutation in the gene-seed. If this was the case prior to the Heresy, it was kept concealed, but given the legion's predilection for secrecy that would not be surprising. During the Lethe Ambush, mutated Alpha Legion Space Marines hid their warped body parts, not out of shame, but so they could reveal them as they attacked - adding horror and revulsion to the shock of their sudden attack.

Ah thanks for that. I was unaware of this.

this is why even if labelled as traitors they have a question mark because their intent is not clear.

So what if they have a demon prince, and so what if they take part in chaotic rituals and chaotic attacks.

The fact remains how does an undercover spy operate? Ask yourselves if you were to fit into a group of individuals undetected then obviously you are expected to take part in their gak.

Apart from the bullet points people are forcing into play

do they take orders from chaos? = yes
do they have a demon prince? = yes
do they do the chaos dance? = yes

they hold a uniqueness even with being labelled chaos (which i may add the imperium doesnt go to investigate further because their too stubborn like man is to believe anything else apart from the primary notion that not listening to daddy E they are traitors).

Maybe they are chaos with super intelligence? Maybe they are extremely patient? (which is again not a natural human trait at all). Maybe they know something more than the mere linear imperial system of the emperors rule.

Maybe they actually know the truth about the emperor? Because the emperor like chaos dont forget doesnt set pawns in place for nothing. Anything he creates has a use and when that use is no longer needed weve seen what hes capable of doing (thunder warriors).

What do you think he would of done with the primarchs running around free after chaos would be defeated? Thats a whole different ball game with 20 super beings close to the power of the empoeror could navigate civil war big enough to destroy man alone forget the threats of chaos. My belief is that once he was finished with the great crusade and cropped all of mankind's threats he would of no doubt terminated the primarchs. Too dangerous to keep them around much like the thunder warriors.

Im sticking to belief on the mere facts that he emperor has done enough wrongs in my book to consider him one of chaos' finest hidden threats. They got him to unite mankind, they got him to create a singularity between mankind across the galaxy, he then created solely himself jealousy and sorrow between his sons, then he continues to ignore messages which was predictable by a simpleton let alone a super being. To me in many cases he has committed chaos' most wanted act. Set us up for the ride to come. Whatever he was promised from chaos which caused him to make things error moves obviously was later realized that he had been played too.

I agree chaos is more advanced and more powerful than the current imperium and the question to why we are not yet wiped out is a question i often ask myself. There is a bigger game in play here and i think chaos needs us as much as we need it. Call it balance - ying and yang whatever but i believe the AL stumbled upon something that caused them to be this grey area legion with no real clue to what, why and how they are operating, There are too many missing bricks in the wall for me to accept that straight up they are chaos full stop.

I agree they are doing bad, they are traitors because they arent following mans order but are they doing exactly what chaos wants willingly or through disguise? We cant be sure of this

 kerikhaos wrote:
this is why even if labelled as traitors they have a question mark because their intent is not clear.

So what if they have a demon prince, and so what if they take part in chaotic rituals and chaotic attacks.

The fact remains how does an undercover spy operate? Ask yourselves if you were to fit into a group of individuals undetected then obviously you are expected to take part in their gak.

Apart from the bullet points people are forcing into play

do they take orders from chaos? = yes
do they have a demon prince? = yes
do they do the chaos dance? = yes

they hold a uniqueness even with being labelled chaos (which i may add the imperium doesnt go to investigate further because their too stubborn like man is to believe anything else apart from the primary notion that not listening to daddy E they are traitors).

Maybe they are chaos with super intelligence? Maybe they are extremely patient? (which is again not a natural human trait at all). Maybe they know something more than the mere linear imperial system of the emperors rule.

Maybe they actually know the truth about the emperor? Because the emperor like chaos dont forget doesnt set pawns in place for nothing. Anything he creates has a use and when that use is no longer needed weve seen what hes capable of doing (thunder warriors).

What do you think he would of done with the primarchs running around free after chaos would be defeated? Thats a whole different ball game with 20 super beings close to the power of the empoeror could navigate civil war big enough to destroy man alone forget the threats of chaos. My belief is that once he was finished with the great crusade and cropped all of mankind's threats he would of no doubt terminated the primarchs. Too dangerous to keep them around much like the thunder warriors.

Im sticking to belief on the mere facts that he emperor has done enough wrongs in my book to consider him one of chaos' finest hidden threats. They got him to unite mankind, they got him to create a singularity between mankind across the galaxy, he then created solely himself jealousy and sorrow between his sons, then he continues to ignore messages which was predictable by a simpleton let alone a super being. To me in many cases he has committed chaos' most wanted act. Set us up for the ride to come. Whatever he was promised from chaos which caused him to make things error moves obviously was later realized that he had been played too.

I agree chaos is more advanced and more powerful than the current imperium and the question to why we are not yet wiped out is a question i often ask myself. There is a bigger game in play here and i think chaos needs us as much as we need it. Call it balance - ying and yang whatever but i believe the AL stumbled upon something that caused them to be this grey area legion with no real clue to what, why and how they are operating, There are too many missing bricks in the wall for me to accept that straight up they are chaos full stop.

I agree they are doing bad, they are traitors because they arent following mans order but are they doing exactly what chaos wants willingly or through disguise? We cant be sure of this

I don't understand the points you are trying to make at all. Regardless of whether their intentioms were once for the better, they are not anymore. You cannot abide by the ranks of Chaos for 10,000 years without completely falling in love with its power. The events set in motion for the destiny of the Alpha Legion were simply induced by Chaos. The Alpha Legion as of M41, are corrupt.

Tark - he's made up his mind that the Alpha Legion are loyalists and he keeps the thread going looking for that one person who will agree with him and thus validating him.

He even believes the Emperor to be a follower of Chaos.

its a simple argument

im not saying the AL are loyalists and to prove that its also not my goal to keep this thread going (im trying to explain my points of view rather than persuade anyone)

The imperium is good? is it? why is it? humanity has obliterated worlds and played god many times to those lesser than us.

chaos is bad? why? again because it does bad? fair point.

i cant be clearer than this - i cant see who is bad nor good. The imperium follows orders. ok - we get it. If those orders are from the emperor does that mean they are good just coz hes the emperor? Please analyze a few of his actions before answering.

Both commit crimes. Both accelerate to be the dominant race in the galaxy and both obliterate anything which stands in their path....even their own asses.

My view of AL are completely separate to the above - i find their fluff to be quite questionable. The lengthy paras are just to try and explain but it sounds as if the super imperium supporters arent getting the point at all so final words.....CLOSE THE THREAD. :-)

We get your point, its just that nobody else buys it. You believe the Alpha Legion only serve Chaos in order to achieve their own goals and are not actually loyal to Chaos, but that just isn't how it works. A lot of the traitor legions joined Chaos for their own purposes, in the end they all serve Chaos. As of the 41st millenium the Alpha Legion serves Chaos, and there is no evidence to the contrary.

The imperium is good? is it? why is it? humanity has obliterated worlds and played god many times to those lesser than us.

Good, bad, they're the guys with the guns.

40K does not work in such simplistic moral shades as black and white.

Everyone, and I mean *everyone* in the setting is some shade of very, very dark grey. Some very few are ultra-black, of course, but most are simply varying degrees of what would be considered Evil by 21st century standards.

tl;dr version -

The Alpha Legion sided with Horus because the Cabal showed the twin Primarchs a vision of the two possible outcomes of the Horus Heresy.

1 - Horus is successful, but after becoming the Emperor he is eventually ridden with guilt and wipes out the human race, thus greatly weakening, and according to the Cabal, killing the Chaos gods.

2 - Horus fails and the IoM is doomed to slowly crumble as the Chaos gods grow stronger and eventually win.

After being told of the possible outcomes, Alpharius says "You know what we need to do. All we do from now on is for the Emperor."

If you want some REALLY good Alpha Legion stuff, read the short story "the Serpent Beneath." I'm not gonna spoil it, but you'll see why they are REALLY confusing.

Also check my sig.

Alpharius chose option 1. Omegon is thought to have chosen option 2 and possible became Janus, one of the founders of the Grey Knights. The Alpha Legion essentially tried both options, hoping for to achieve a third possible outcome.

Over at the Alpha Legion forums we've got a bit of a debate going - http://z15.invisionfree.com/Alpha_Legion_Forums/index.php?showtopic=524&st=105