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As the title says - it's unclear to me are they or are they not traitors and why???

What they did was side with Horus during his rebellion against the Emperor. In short they are considered traitors because of their treachery.

Your confused by the interpretation of the community and the vagueness of the fluff to form a concrete answer.

From an Imperial view point, Alpha Legion is traitor to the extreme. They're responsible for many, many deaths, treacheries, wiping out whole Chapters, and of course, siding with Horus. No compromise.

From a reader's standpoint, the fluff gets a bit more vague, as the Alpha Legion could be perpetuating all this for the sake of pushing the conflict to the endgame, playing a role in finally seeing a decisive end to the Chaos/Emperor of Mankind rift. Of course, this is speculation based on interaction of the Cabal (that foresaw two endings to the Horus Heresy), but by reading the novels and such, the Alpha Legion's actions only seem to benefit themselves mostly and indirectly the cause of Chaos.

So technically they did fail the imperium by committing crimes during the heresy. But did they do it because of chaos corruption or to benefit from an independent factor in the war? It's unclear because it's not clean cut chaos reached them. They just acted out consciously question remains why did they do it because as a chapter they were so distant from the rest if the imperium

even if you accept the reasoning behind their actions they are STILL guilty of treason. as essentially they're activly working to cause the complete genocide of the human race during the heresy

 WarOne wrote:
Your confused by the interpretation of the community and the vagueness of the fluff to form a concrete answer.

From an Imperial view point, Alpha Legion is traitor to the extreme. They're responsible for many, many deaths, treacheries, wiping out whole Chapters, and of course, siding with Horus. No compromise.

From a reader's standpoint, the fluff gets a bit more vague, as the Alpha Legion could be perpetuating all this for the sake of pushing the conflict to the endgame, playing a role in finally seeing a decisive end to the Chaos/Emperor of Mankind rift. Of course, this is speculation based on interaction of the Cabal (that foresaw two endings to the Horus Heresy), but by reading the novels and such, the Alpha Legion's actions only seem to benefit themselves mostly and indirectly the cause of Chaos.

If they were doing it for "good" reasons, that wouldn't make them not traitors.

The Alpha Legion has fought against and continues to fight against the Imperium, therefore they're traitors to the Imperial cause. The morality of that action is a separate issue from what the action actually is.

It's still not answering my question. Are they doing this under the influence of chaos or their own personal agendas? They were and still are the most disconnected of the chapters who knows that something else maybe the reason of their treason.

All I'm asking is there proof they were touched chaos that's all

 kerikhaos wrote:
It's still not answering my question. Are they doing this under the influence of chaos or their own personal agendas? They were and still are the most disconnected of the chapters who knows that something else maybe the reason of their treason.

All I'm asking is there proof they were touched chaos that's all

They have Daemon Princes. But I don't believe their Primarch is one, he supposedly died though that is up for debate.

Didn't they have 2 Primarchs so there's at least one still alive?

pm713 wrote:
Didn't they have 2 Primarchs so there's at least one still alive?

They are both alive, the one that died was merely a Space Marine But in all honesty, no one actually knows if one of the Primarchs died or not because the Alpha Legion legionnaires all looked exactly like their Primarch Alpharius, plus Alpharius was pretty small for a Primarch so there wasn't a large amount of height difference either.

The Alpha legion sided with Horus, but this was only because they were influnced by the Cabal, by doing so they would be able to end the threat of Chaos, however with recent Black library and Forgeworld releases this has taken a slight sideline and now the Alpha Legion seem to be doing what benefits them the most and going against the Cabals instructions, see Deliverance Lost for more details on this

So does this mean the legion is under the influence of chaos or they doing what they feel is right? I'm still none the wiser

 kerikhaos wrote:
So does this mean the legion is under the influence of chaos or they doing what they feel is right? I'm still none the wiser

Nobody knows. And that is how Alpha Legion likes it.

Alpha Legion wants you to think that Alpha Legion is tricking you into thinking that whatever you think is a ploy put in place by Alpha Legion.

Or not.

 kerikhaos wrote:
So does this mean the legion is under the influence of chaos or they doing what they feel is right? I'm still none the wiser

According to the book Legion, the actually are doing what they feel is right.

Abnett made the whole world go crazy, but basically you can certainly make the case that they are actually extremelly loyal to the Big E and his vision, or at least they were at the time.

Now however, his vision is fethed, and the citizens of the imperium venerate him as a God which he always stood against, so perhaps they are both loyal to the Emperor, but despise the current Imperium.

So basically they're loyal to the original idea of the Imperium not the current version?

Which book is that from bty?

pm713 wrote:
So basically they're loyal to the original idea of the Imperium not the current version?

Which book is that from bty?

No, because the Imperium they betrayed WAS the original Imperium.

As far as whether or not they are chaos influenced, I don't think there is any doubt now. Whatever their intentions may have been when they first sided with Horus, every depiction of them in 40k that I have ever seen indicates pretty strongly that they have fallen to chaos.

This is why the xx chapter lies shrouded in mystery. I don't think there is enough to suggest that chaos reached them. But there are more likely a million reasons to rebel against the emperor and I mean on a personal level.

Yes the primarch was a twin, maybe an actual primarch clone if not truly an actual twin. That plus all the legion identically looked like them it's like the perfect hide a needle in a haystack tactic. Just with this info we can assume confidently that they being as far away and most disconnected of all the space marine legions could of created a unique overview of the current imperium and it's new galactic goals. They had the distance to observe, plan and decide it was time to separate from the emperor completely but to execute these actions at the time of the heresy was either a brilliant display of tact or they could foresee something even beyond the heresy even maybe beyond sanguinious' vision which effected their future.

Who knows really as you all say, I'm thinking logically to justify their actions. They might even be involved in a bigger game attempting to save the human race in their own right.

 kerikhaos wrote:
This is why the xx chapter lies shrouded in mystery. I don't think there is enough to suggest that chaos reached them. But there are more likely a million reasons to rebel against the emperor and I mean on a personal level.

Yes the primarch was a twin, maybe an actual primarch clone if not truly an actual twin. That plus all the legion identically looked like them it's like the perfect hide a needle in a haystack tactic. Just with this info we can assume confidently that they being as far away and most disconnected of all the space marine legions could of created a unique overview of the current imperium and it's new galactic goals. They had the distance to observe, plan and decide it was time to separate from the emperor completely but to execute these actions at the time of the heresy was either a brilliant display of tact or they could foresee something even beyond the heresy even maybe beyond sanguinious' vision which effected their future.

Who knows really as you all say, I'm thinking logically to justify their actions. They might even be involved in a bigger game attempting to save the human race in their own right.

*XX legion

The Alpha Legion are definitely involved with Chaos. They want to destroy humanity in order to destroy Chaos. (Weird I know) you'll have to read Legion to understand. They are in no way good.

But how can they be involved in chaos if they desire to destroy it (via the termination of the human race)? Maybe they just don't think to be human anymore and have identified the human race to be as much as an evil threat as chaos?

 kerikhaos wrote:
But how can they be involved in chaos if they desire to destroy it (via the termination of the human race)? Maybe they just don't think to be human anymore and have identified the human race to be as much as an evil threat as chaos?

Could be going for the Radical angle of use Chaos to destroy Chaos which partially works if you can get Khorne to fight Slaanesh and that kind of thing. Maybe they're after the greater good.

 kerikhaos wrote:
But how can they be involved in chaos if they desire to destroy it (via the termination of the human race)? Maybe they just don't think to be human anymore and have identified the human race to be as much as an evil threat as chaos?

Mhm, either way, EXCOMUNICATE TRAITORIS!

Like, seriously, they wanna destroy the human race. They gave oaths that they would protect the human race, no matter the costs. They have since cast away their honor and neglected their oaths, replacing their imperial regalia with the 8 pointed star of Chaos. For such treachery only one fate awaits them...death.

 kerikhaos wrote:
But how can they be involved in chaos if they desire to destroy it (via the termination of the human race)? Maybe they just don't think to be human anymore and have identified the human race to be as much as an evil threat as chaos?

10k years has a way of changing people, especially Astartes. Sort of how you can line up a group of people and have the first person whisper something to the second and so on and get a completely different message from the last person in line.

 AWesker1976 wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
But how can they be involved in chaos if they desire to destroy it (via the termination of the human race)? Maybe they just don't think to be human anymore and have identified the human race to be as much as an evil threat as chaos?

10k years has a way of changing people, especially Astartes. Sort of how you can line up a group of people and have the first person whisper something to the second and so on and get a completely different message from the last person in line.

I totally agree with you

But events caused are usually because of events created meaning something must of triggered their thinking. I for one with just half of the neglect listed by traitor primarchs would of not needed chaos to plainly see I don't belong in that circle. I swear to protect humanity until humanity turns it's back on me. Childish? Expect nothing less for primarchs are the children if the emperor and being treated unequally is heresy in its own right in regards to parenting. A bad parent that brings up a dozen kids can't guarantee all of them will grow the same if not all tested the same. This easy task was faulted badly by the emperor and that creates a domino effect. Why was chains needed? A father neglecting one child of many isn't it enough to drive a rage inside?

My point again leans again towards personal matter which may be the drive for alpha legion. They obviously see some other disturbing events which humans will escalate in the future so again the alphas maybe in between chaos and humanity playing them both with the hopeful result of annihilating both to end the war.

More towards the point. They are behaving in a way where they have discovered something dark about the emperors plan and do not agree with it.

I've also heard rumors on the net that alpha legion is the only legion left to know the whereabouts of the missing chters and maybe even working along side them currently.

They were convinced by the Cabal that if Horus won the conflict, he'd take over as the new "Emperor", but that would lead to the ultimate extinction of the human race and the death of Chaos with so little to feed it.
So its bad if you are a human facing that extinction. It's one of those "bigger picture" things. The GK wipe out planets to stop the knowledge and corruption of Chaos, the AL want to wipe out everybody to destroy it.

 Deadshot wrote:
They were convinced by the Cabal that if Horus won the conflict, he'd take over as the new "Emperor", but that would lead to the ultimate extinction of the human race and the death of Chaos with so little to feed it.
So its bad if you are a human facing that extinction. It's one of those "bigger picture" things. The GK wipe out planets to stop the knowledge and corruption of Chaos, the AL want to wipe out everybody to destroy it.

Or they did at least, we don't know what their intentions are after the heresy. All the 40k publications featuring the Alphas that I have read have them distinctly in 'Team Chaos' now.

It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

What I am trying to say, and others as well I think, is that they might not have been under the influence of Chaos at the time of the heresy, but after 10,000 years things can change. Some Alpha Legionnaires clearly are under the influence of Chaos.

Voldorius is a Daemon Prince, you don't become one of those by staying far away from Chaos and doing things in the name of the Emperor.

The intentions had by the loyalist elements might have been lost after say, 500 years, as they got killed off only leaving half the truth to be told to the new recruits. As more and more die less and less of the actual truth gets told until you are left with something totally different from the original telling.

to answer the title question, the second they took part in the dropsite massacre on Istvaan 5 they were traitors.

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

Maybe they pledge themselves to Chaos in a ruse to fool Chaos into given them power of Chaos to destroy the enemies of Chaos and in turn destroy Chaos itself.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 kerikhaos wrote:
It says even in the wiki for AL 2 things that make me feel they are not touched by chaos is that first they allowed Corax to escape by destroying a chaos ship during the time when the emperor and sanguinious were engaging Horus. And second they did not choose to move towards attacking terra even on Horus' command. Instead they went and attacked some white scar outpost and then a space wolves outpost.

Oooooook and there's a third reason that comes to mind. When Horus fell and all chaos induced species made a run for it back to the warp the AL again didn't follow. They went into deep space and hid from the imperium.

These are 3 facts which don't add up to being under the influence of chaos I'm sure there is more but these are what come to mind.

The imperium sees them as traitors that's fair play but I don't think it's because of chaos. They know something that's set them in motion

Those were during the Horus Heresy. It's 41k now, the Alpha Legion is undeniably chaotic considering they have a Daemon Prince, team up often with the Black legion, start chaos cults, and are mutated by Chaos.

Maybe they pledge themselves to Chaos in a ruse to fool Chaos into given them power of Chaos to destroy the enemies of Chaos and in turn destroy Chaos itself.

Except Tzeentch is all knowing. Really, there's no good argument that the Alpha Legion remain loyal, rather the Cabal or Chaos (probably Chaos manipulating the Cabal) tricked the Alpha Legion into turning traitor, something they could never emerge from intact.