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Kangodo wrote:
Auswin, that is not a CAD.
A CAD always has two troops and one HQ as minimum. Always.

Okay yes, it's a "detachment," while "Combined Arms Detachment refers solely to the BRB example, which gives obsec and re-rolling of warlord traits. Sorry if people were confused. That said, many many people are still under the misunderstanding that they have to follow the CAD to be a battle-forged army, which is untrue. As long as you're using outlined detachments to make your list you're following the rules for being battle-forged.

I was speaking to the idea that a GK army MUST have two troop choices, which is not true. You can run two GK detachments with 8 elites and two troops and still be battle-forged.

 Auswin wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


CAD's require two troops. Also: Strike Squads would leave more points to turn Dreadnoughts into Dreadnights, yeah?

No, not unless you're using the 7th ed rulebook CAD to get obsec, which is wasted in a GK list. They have their own CAD as outlined in the codex. 1 HQ and 1 troop required, with 1 HQ, 4 elite, 2 FA, 2 HS, 1 LOW, 1 fortification optional.

You forego obsec for being allowed to arrive via deep strike starting turn one on a 3+, which is vastly better than getting obsec in an army that doesn't have the option for a cheap troop choice.

Yes taking SS allows for more points in HS, but I think it's wasted. You get those points from running very cheap ML3 librarians, or if you really want to be cheap taking techmarines as HQs.

Yes but a CAD by definition is a Combined Arms Detachment and thats what you said the "FOC requires one troop per CAD". So if you didn't mean CAD, then I guess you may be right; but you should then say "Wahtever whatever of doom Detachment" so I know you're making a distinction. CAD is avery specific kind of detachment, as you know.

No biggee though. I like Objective Secured as an advantage but Ill have to take a look at this FOC and decide if its advantage outweighs my wish to break ties.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Auswin wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


CAD's require two troops. Also: Strike Squads would leave more points to turn Dreadnoughts into Dreadnights, yeah?

No, not unless you're using the 7th ed rulebook CAD to get obsec, which is wasted in a GK list. They have their own CAD as outlined in the codex. 1 HQ and 1 troop required, with 1 HQ, 4 elite, 2 FA, 2 HS, 1 LOW, 1 fortification optional.

You forego obsec for being allowed to arrive via deep strike starting turn one on a 3+, which is vastly better than getting obsec in an army that doesn't have the option for a cheap troop choice.

Yes taking SS allows for more points in HS, but I think it's wasted. You get those points from running very cheap ML3 librarians, or if you really want to be cheap taking techmarines as HQs.

Yes but a CAD by definition is a Combined Arms Detachment and thats what you said the "FOC requires one troop per CAD". So if you didn't mean CAD, then I guess you may be right; but you should then say "Wahtever whatever of doom Detachment" so I know you're making a distinction. CAD is avery specific kind of detachment, as you know.

No biggee though. I like Objective Secured as an advantage but Ill have to take a look at this FOC and decide if its advantage outweighs my wish to break ties.

I understand why a lot of people are questioning the loss of objective secured with a lot of the new detachent types coming out lately, but I think some perspective should be used, at least with an army like the Grey Knights. With some of the most expensive "basic" troops in the game, I honestly feel that the likelihood of you coming into a situation where ObSec would be useful is low. Against ObSec MSU spam, you don't stand a chance at contesting regardless because you will absolutely be outnumbered against almost every other army out there, so you might as well play to your strengths and try to shift units off objectives by killing them.

The GK detachment is one troop choice minimum, so you take it to spend less on troops and more on other stuff. Objective secured doesn't matter if you are running mostly not troops.

 Gratlugg wrote:


I understand why a lot of people are questioning the loss of objective secured with a lot of the new detachent types coming out lately, but I think some perspective should be used, at least with an army like the Grey Knights. With some of the most expensive "basic" troops in the game, I honestly feel that the likelihood of you coming into a situation where ObSec would be useful is low. Against ObSec MSU spam, you don't stand a chance at contesting regardless because you will absolutely be outnumbered against almost every other army out there, so you might as well play to your strengths and try to shift units off objectives by killing them.

This is absolutely my thought. Thank you for summing it up so well.

You will never have the numbers advantage playing GK, and I think settling for sub par options to fill the CAD plays against their strengths. In my experience the times two units are contesting an objective are rare, if ever. That could be my local meta, but obsec has never been a huge boon in playing. In the 5 games I played the 3+ DS reserves and running then shooting where immeasurably powerful. Incinerator Interceptors coming in and getting that first flame is huge -- and it allows for null deploy, which I think is a viable option in non-Purifier lists.

Well, Obsec is mostly an issue for some fast transports out there... My regular opponents include DE and Eldar... Especially with the insane flat out move on those things, I've had more than a few objectives snatched from me already.

It's also really hard to do a 3" screen against such fast moving skimmers who essentially just fly over the screen.

But I do agree with the general statement that with such insanely expensive troops, GKs will run minimum troops almost all the time. So the loss of Obsec on just one or 2 units, isn't something to get too upset about. Especially now that MSU SS and psyback has been destroyed.

And that last thing is a good summing up of the GK strenghts.

In the interest of not hijacking this thread further, I've started a YMDC thread about the The Aegis discussion.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/612182.page#7148853

My list that's yet to lose....only 6 games in though.

Nemesis Strike Force

HQ
-Stern

TROOP
-10 GKT
---2 Psycannons
---2 Hammers

-10 GKT
---2 Psycannons
---2 Hammers

-5 Strikers
---Incinerator
---2 Hammers

-5 Strikers
---Incinerator
---Hammer

HEAVY
-Dreadknight
---Teleporter
---Hammer
---Psycannon

-Dreadknight
---Teleporter
---Incinerator
---Psycannon

ALLY
-Knight Errant



It doesn't always land in enemy face, but when it does it always combat squads. Thus far it's simply won by having too many big threats too close for my opponents to deal with. Everyone's still playing the long range game and no one seems to be adapting to the short game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also toying with a squad of psilencers buffed by the soul glaive.

Dreadknight doesn't come stock with force now? Odd

All psykers have the force power.

Just a lot of psykers dont actually have a force weapon.

 Leth wrote:
All psykers have the force power.

Just a lot of psykers dont actually have a force weapon.

Thanks for that!

 ductvader wrote:
My list that's yet to lose....only 6 games in though.

Nemesis Strike Force

HQ
-Stern

TROOP
-10 GKT
---2 Psycannons
---2 Hammers

-10 GKT
---2 Psycannons
---2 Hammers

-5 Strikers
---Incinerator
---Hammer

-5 Strikers
---Incinerator
---Hammer

HEAVY
-Dreadknight
---Teleporter
---Hammer
---Psycannon

-Dreadknight
---Teleporter
---Incinerator
---Psycannon

ALLY
-Knight Errant



It doesn't always land in enemy face, but when it does it always combat squads. Thus far it's simply won by having too many big threats too close for my opponents to deal with. Everyone's still playing the long range game and no one seems to be adapting to the short game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also toying with a squad of psilencers buffed by the soul glaive.

Dreadknight doesn't come stock with force now? Odd

I guess the GKSS are deep striking, aren't they?

Do you really need the Errant?

The Errant has made a mess of a parking lot twice. I also feel like he's taken a lot of fire off the DreadKnights personally.

Strikes tend to deepstrike yes. DS...run...and flame has worked well for me for rooting out some MSU units early on.

Seems to me the strength of GK is Dreadknights.
I'd go NSF and CAD (as locally you're allowed any 2 different detachments), and run 2 HQ, 3 troops and 5 Dreadknights.
Think of it, turn 1 I shunt 5 monstrous jump creatures into your face, and drop down a ton of soul blazing S6 torrents.

Using Librarians as HQ, I'm at 14 dice for the bare bones.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Seems to me the strength of GK is Dreadknights.
I'd go NSF and CAD (as locally you're allowed any 2 different detachments), and run 2 HQ, 3 troops and 5 Dreadknights.
Think of it, turn 1 I shunt 5 monstrous jump creatures into your face, and drop down a ton of soul blazing S6 torrents.

Using Librarians as HQ, I'm at 14 dice for the bare bones.

Well, five NDK's as a bit over the top.
What kind of troops have you taken?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Seems to me the strength of GK is Dreadknights.
I'd go NSF and CAD (as locally you're allowed any 2 different detachments), and run 2 HQ, 3 troops and 5 Dreadknights.
Think of it, turn 1 I shunt 5 monstrous jump creatures into your face, and drop down a ton of soul blazing S6 torrents.

Using Librarians as HQ, I'm at 14 dice for the bare bones.

Well, five NDK's as a bit over the top.
What kind of troops have you taken?

I think that's what he was going for lol.

I'm betting Terminators for the troops. 5 GKT isn't much more than 5 GKSS in a rhino. Though if he is saving his points, maybe GKSS...

Ok, 1850:
2x Librarian, level 2 (110 each)
5x3 Strike Squads, incinerator (115 each)
5x Nemesis Dreadknights, heavy incinerators, personal teleporters (180 points each)
Knight Paladin
10 points left over.

If I rolled up invisibility, I'd cast that on the Knight Paladin. If I didn't get invisibility, I'd deep strike reserve the libarians and the 3 troop choices.

Not gonna lie, dont find that list very scary. It is very one dimensional.

 Leth wrote:
Not gonna lie, dont find that list very scary. It is very one dimensional.

Sometimes one dimensional works though.

Seems like a rock, paper, scissors list. Wins hard against some, loses hard against others.

It is very light on actual threatening shooting. Almost all of its shooting is template. I would take heavy psycannons on the dradknights instead, that gives you something.

Also it lacks the ability to remove serious threats to the list.

It has nothing that could deal with even one grav cent unit, regardless of how it deployed

 Leth wrote:
Not gonna lie, dont find that list very scary. It is very one dimensional.

Yes, monodimensional and very straightforward to play.
But six MC's in one army is very scary, indeed.

 Leth wrote:
It is very light on actual threatening shooting. Almost all of its shooting is template. I would take heavy psycannons on the dradknights instead, that gives you something.

I strongly agree with this. Ideally heavy incinerator and heavy psycannon but there aren't any points for that...

A usefukl thread on Dakkadakka that hasn't devolved. Im enjoying this!

Personally I am still a fan of psycannons on power armor. With the deep strike formation you are sacrificing one turn of shooting even if it was still heavy anyway and then use that turn to get into position at the mid table, ideally on objectives and then sit on them while unloading. You can move everything else in the unit if you need to.

In addition you can take them in rhinos, spend a turn getting into position and then fire out of the hatches.

I only see incinerators being worthwhile on interceptors, especially with that first turn shunt to get into range, you just dont want to risk the deep strike without it. Also I would always cap the librarians. The cost per warp charge goes down significantly for each additional point as well as a greater likelihood of getting the powers you want.

 Jancoran wrote:
A usefukl thread on Dakkadakka that hasn't devolved. Im enjoying this!

I guess the practical experience with the new codex is rather limited atm.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
A usefukl thread on Dakkadakka that hasn't devolved. Im enjoying this!

I guess the practical experience with the new codex is rather limited atm.

It is. I will be testing my Purifier force and seeing what happens now.

 Leth wrote:
It is very light on actual threatening shooting. Almost all of its shooting is template. I would take heavy psycannons on the dradknights instead, that gives you something.
Also it lacks the ability to remove serious threats to the list.
It has nothing that could deal with even one grav cent unit, regardless of how it deployed

Silly me, I thought WS5 S10 pasted those guys. Grav cents aren't going to get all 5. The answer for grav cents is to shunt 3-5 dreadknights point blank, take the 1 round of fire, and then charge in.
5+ invul, with the power to boost to 4+ invul is stock on them.
T5 2+ is very tough for GK to deal with; and shooting isn't the answer.

I want to like psycannons (as it's what I own), but the cost of packing psycannons has gone up, significantly.
Strikes went from 220 for 2 psycannons to 240.
Purifers went from 280 for 4, to 310.
Paladins held at 315 for 2 (in squad of 5).
Terminators dropped to 185 per psycannon.
Interceptors up 145 for 1, from 140.
Purgation Squad; dropped 10 points to 170, from 180 (for four 4).

Razorbacks and dreadnoughts lost the option for twin-linked psycannons (previously known as assault cannon with psybolts).
On the whole, you're showing up with a lot less psycannons, and those psycannons have half the range and firepower if you move (as opposed to half the firepower).
However the psycannons worked for you two weeks ago, they are going to working worse now.
The only two choices where psycannons saw an improvement was on purgations squads, and terminators; though Purge squads are super fragile (losses likely to knock out psycannons quickly) and terminators, while cheaper, still pay more than anyone else, making them the worse choice for the firepower.
On the other hand, a shunting Dreadknight is ~55 points cheaper.

IMO, the shooting is now too expensive, and too concentrated into foot sloggers with no real mobility (only purifiers and purgation squads get decent firepower for the points, and they don't teleport or shunt). On the other hand, a fast moving hard hitting force might have a chance. I'm not saying that 20 wounds worth of T6 with 2+ and 4or5++ is the best list, I'm just saying that what the book seems to be pushing for.
I really want to like psilencers. The idea of 24 S4 instant death shoots is appealing to me. I just don't see a way to get them into the fight where I need them.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

Silly me, I thought WS5 S10 pasted those guys. Grav cents aren't going to get all 5. The answer for grav cents is to shunt 3-5 dreadknights point blank, take the 1 round of fire, and then charge in.
5+ invul, with the power to boost to 4+ invul is stock on them.
T5 2+ is very tough for GK to deal with; and shooting isn't the answer.

My point was that it lacks the ability to deal with even one unit. Relying on assault to kill things is not really viable as your sole competative strategy. It is VERY easy for me to protect the unit from assault for 1-2 turns.

For example unless you had activated force on all of them during your turn with my current list I would kill two reliably with my cents/other shooting(did the math) then charge and probably kill 1-2 with the rest of my guys. That is also factoring in reasonable casualties from shooting. Dreadknights just are not durable enough to be the main source for attacking ability. You are missing out on playing the mid-range shooting game which is very VERY important. Will you wreck a good number of lists? Probably, but a good tournament list is going to love this.

I want to like psycannons (as it's what I own), but the cost of packing psycannons has gone up, significantly.
Strikes went from 220 for 2 psycannons to 240.
Purifers went from 280 for 4, to 310.
Paladins held at 315 for 2 (in squad of 5).
Terminators dropped to 185 per psycannon.
Interceptors up 145 for 1, from 140.
Purgation Squad; dropped 10 points to 170, from 180 (for four 4).

Which is fine, but dont get caught up in the cognitive fallacy of it costing more or less than it used to. All that matters is the now. Purifiers I would run 5 man units with two in rhinos, no reason to cap them, especially when it comes to getting warpcharges and extra novas. Strikes would be a combat squaded unit in rhino with two and then deep striking 5. There are ways to make it work, just have to adjust your thinking on the units.

Razorbacks and dreadnoughts lost the option for twin-linked psycannons (previously known as assault cannon with psybolts).
On the whole, you're showing up with a lot less psycannons, and those psycannons have half the range and firepower if you move (as opposed to half the firepower).
However the psycannons worked for you two weeks ago, they are going to working worse now.

Worse on a strict comparison basis, sure. However in the context of the new army I can see them still being useful. You weren't taking them on dreads, you were taking psyfulmens anyway. Once again its about adapting and playing differently.

The only two choices where psycannons saw an improvement was on purgations squads, and terminators; though Purge squads are super fragile (losses likely to knock out psycannons quickly) and terminators, while cheaper, still pay more than anyone else, making them the worse choice for the firepower.
On the other hand, a shunting Dreadknight is ~55 points cheaper.

I am not denying that dreadknights are better than before. My point is that it has a limited role. Sometimes it will be fantastic and have plenty of opportunities, other times it wont and you will get crushed.

IMO, the shooting is now too expensive, and too concentrated into foot sloggers with no real mobility (only purifiers and purgation squads get decent firepower for the points, and they don't teleport or shunt). On the other hand, a fast moving hard hitting force might have a chance. I'm not saying that 20 wounds worth of T6 with 2+ and 4or5++ is the best list, I'm just saying that what the book seems to be pushing for.
I really want to like psilencers. The idea of 24 S4 instant death shoots is appealing to me. I just don't see a way to get them into the fight where I need them.

And I can totally understand how that is a reasonable gut reaction to the new stuff. However there are plenty of ways to work in mobility to the list AND have shooting.

For starters I think you would be better off with a big terminator squad than the strikes with psycannons. Also gives your librarians a good place to go. While the heavy incinerators are nice I would probably limit it to 2 of them, the rest heavy psycannons. Also as said earlier cap the librarians

So something similar to what you posted.

Strike Formation
2x level 3 Librarian, one with Liber
10x Paladins 3x daemon hammer, Nemesis banner, 4x psycannon, Apoth
5x Strike 1x psycannon with Rhino and dozer
Fast Attack Rhino with dozer
2x Nemesis Dreadknights - Sword, Incinerator, Teleporter
Knight Errant
Comms Relay and aegis

Personally I would find something like this much more intimidating. Obviously there are a few improvements that could be made but its a guideline while staying similar to your posted list

 Leth wrote:

So something similar to what you posted.

Strike Formation
2x level 3 Librarian, one with Liber
10x Paladins 3x daemon hammer, Nemesis banner, 4x psycannon, Apoth
5x Strike 1x psycannon with Rhino and dozer
Fast Attack Rhino with dozer
2x Nemesis Dreadknights - Sword, Incinerator, Teleporter
Knight Errant
Comms Relay and aegis

Personally I would find something like this much more intimidating. Obviously there are a few improvements that could be made but its a guideline while staying similar to your posted list

I don't like the pally star. Too much risk of over-kill, too hard to engage multiple units, and cannot sweep.
5 psycannons is good for ~3 wounds on a 2+ target in the open.

 Jancoran wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
A usefukl thread on Dakkadakka that hasn't devolved. Im enjoying this!

I guess the practical experience with the new codex is rather limited atm.

It is. I will be testing my Purifier force and seeing what happens now.

This is what I want to see. Ive been wondering how purifier armies are doing.