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I doubt it'd work long term, the chaos gods would likely take steps to ensure they reclaimed their follower. not that this would stop a radical from trying I suppose, god knows they do lots of other things that involve them doing stupid stuff that long term will backfire horriably

Cool thanks everyone. Just working on a plot for Dark Heresy rpg, still might throw in an ex-CSM just for the hell of it

 Fifty wrote:
Actually, it is highly debatable whether Huron was working for Chaos at the time the Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners aligned themselves with him. The chances are he only turned to Chaos once his other options were exhausted. It is certain that even once the extent of his breaking of rules were known, let alone any hint of consorting with Chaos and eventually fully embracing it, the other chapters were either defeated already, or turned on him.

Yep, FW leave it pretty ambiguous as to when Huron turns to Chaos, although he make some very questionable decisions early on in the Badab War which make me think he succumbed to Chaos relatively early. No matter what the Lamenters, Mantis Warriors and Executioners went against the Council of Terra and were considered traitors, but were eventually welcomed back into the fold.

Well if all you want is an ex-CSM you could probably do that? I mean, I don't think anyone would let him repent without shooting him in the face, but if he became a CSM and then decided to quit doing that... I'm not sure how chaos handles defectors. I guess if he wasn't crazy mutated or still actively worshiping chaos gods, he could probably 'retire' on an uninformed backwater planet.

If he were clean enough maybe he could find the remains of a fallen marine and pose as him to his battle brothers though it seems like he'd get caught.

Out of the Eight Traitor Legions, only two aren't drinking the Chaos Kool-Aid 100%- the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords.

So, it's pretty clear that a Night Lord or Alpha Legionairre can't say, "Dear Imperium, forgive me and let me fight for you!" because there is no forgiveness, but here is a better scenario.

Suppose the leader of a company of Night Lords or Alpha Legionairres decided that if killing is all that they know, then maybe killing for the Imperium, after all these years, is preferable to killing for Chaos. After all, even if you don't like the Imperium, maybe you want to be turning into Chaos Spawn even less. So, a Chaos Warband of Night Lords or Alpha Legion sets up on a few worlds at the edge of the Imperium, spray-paint their armor a new color, give themselves a Chapter name, and just pretend they've been there all along. After a hundred years, the local populace may not know better, and the former traitors continue on as if there was no heresy- just a lot of Eldar, Orks, and Necrons to kill for fun.

(Or maybe hijacks some ships and sets up a nomad-predation fleet after destroying what is left of a Raven Guard band that could recognize them and takes their place)

I remember a short story I read in the old Inferno mag. Called 'Deminifurge', maybe? I'm not sure. Anyway, (spoilers) it started with a marine being tempted by a greater demon and falling to chaos (Nurgle) and becoming it's champion. At the end he fights a SoB who convinces him there is still some good in him, and 'sorta' turns him back. Of course at that point he knows he's to far gone to just return to the Imperium, so he stashes a bomb in his chest and blows up himself and the Demon who tempted him. So; precedence for a 'turned-back' marine if your looking for it.

BrianDavion wrote:
I doubt it'd work long term, the chaos gods would likely take steps to ensure they reclaimed their follower. not that this would stop a radical from trying I suppose, god knows they do lots of other things that involve them doing stupid stuff that long term will backfire horriably

I dunno. Some radical Inquisitors regularly bind DAEMONHOSTS, which are possessed by a sentient servant of the dark gods made of pure warp energy. Compared to that, putting protections on a former CSM, particularly one that never got a lot of gifts or a mark, seems pretty tame. And yes, many Daemonhosts turn on their masters, but some radicals keep daemonhosts safely for years or decades. Eisenhorn and Lichtenstein come to mind. Of course, like daemonhosts, if a radical Inquisitor gets caught with a "reformed" CSM, he is getting excommunicated and they're both getting PURGED. That former CSM is NOT going to be just hanging out on an Imperium world, unless he's posing as a loyalist, and even then there's threat of getting his cover blown.

I also think that a CSM turning to radical Inquisitor isn't completely impossible. He may have grown disillusioned with the dark gods, or have been betrayed by his comrades and simply have nowhere else to turn. Not all CSM's are heavily corrupted. Night Lords, for example, don't really do many dealings with daemons or Chaos gods, so they aren't heavily mutated. There are other chapters that have also aligned themselves with Chaos, but keep enough distance from the Warp that they are relatively uncorrupted, at least physically.

If you want to do a reformed CSM, I recommend having a radical Inquisitor be a character as well, as they're probably the only ones who could make it work. Also, the reformed CSM should be hiding in some way, whether actually hiding or using a false identity. How sincere his reformation is, and whether he'll stay loyal or turn back is up to you.

 orksmasha wrote:
I was thinking maybe a Radical Inquisitor might try and mind wipe/psykic purge a CSM? Not sure why he'd want to... but if he did, could it work?
Like blast the chaos out of someone, mutations you can live with for a while or hide them

Might work for one who has not started worshiping chaos, but once the promise their soul to a chaos god...it cannot be undone. Forgetting that you promised your soul to a god doesnt mean it didnt happen.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Out of the Eight Traitor Legions, only two aren't drinking the Chaos Kool-Aid 100%- the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords.

So, it's pretty clear that a Night Lord or Alpha Legionairre can't say, "Dear Imperium, forgive me and let me fight for you!" because there is no forgiveness, but here is a better scenario.

Suppose the leader of a company of Night Lords or Alpha Legionairres decided that if killing is all that they know, then maybe killing for the Imperium, after all these years, is preferable to killing for Chaos. After all, even if you don't like the Imperium, maybe you want to be turning into Chaos Spawn even less. So, a Chaos Warband of Night Lords or Alpha Legion sets up on a few worlds at the edge of the Imperium, spray-paint their armor a new color, give themselves a Chapter name, and just pretend they've been there all along. After a hundred years, the local populace may not know better, and the former traitors continue on as if there was no heresy- just a lot of Eldar, Orks, and Necrons to kill for fun.

(Or maybe hijacks some ships and sets up a nomad-predation fleet after destroying what is left of a Raven Guard band that could recognize them and takes their place)

They could also become Black Shields in Deathwatch. A Night Lord could easily pass as a Raven Guard descendent.

I don't know but I swear that while reading the deathwatch rpg book I read something about former traitors becoming apart of the deathwatch as a black shield. I decided to check lexacanum and they strongly hint that former traitors do become members of the deathwatch.

Sort of reminds me of the french foreign legion in a way

 orksmasha wrote:
I was thinking maybe a Radical Inquisitor might try and mind wipe/psykic purge a CSM? Not sure why he'd want to... but if he did, could it work?
Like blast the chaos out of someone, mutations you can live with for a while or hide them

Draigo, in the old fluff at least, was able to burn the taint from metal of a Bloodthirster's axe to reforge his sword using psychic fire.

I suppose a Radical Malleus/Hereticus Inquisitor might try have a powerful GK psychically drive the taint from someone, and then mind-wipe them into their own personal warband as an experiment, similar to how the Exorcists are supposedly made by driving a Daemon from a possessed aspirant to make them resistant/immune.

I know very little fluff compared to many here, so my thought may be way off for some reason. With that said...

It is easy enough to say kill all traitors, there is no forgiveness, but if the traitor has some useful information that helps you turn the tide of the battle...then does it again, and again, and again... You may start to rethink the idea that you must kill him. Perhaps after he provides you with invaluable informatio enough times, you can look past his previous indiscretions. Sure he can never be trusted and must always be carefully watched, but that death sentance may never need to come. Especially if this is all happening in one of the less carefully watched regions of the empire.

A second scenario would be that the CSM traitor is really an imperial agent/spy/whatever so isn't really a traitor at all. Of course the time spent with chaos renders him largely untrustworthy and potentially dangerous, but if carefully watched, and maybe frequent purgings of those around him, perhaps he can be used? Especially by one of the rogue inquisitor types others have mentioned.

Really the galaxy is large enough and the imperium's ability to carefull monitor things so lacking that pretty much any imaginable scenario could be possible.

Again I'm no fluff expert so I may be missing something.

 Deadshot wrote:

 orksmasha wrote:
I was thinking maybe a Radical Inquisitor might try and mind wipe/psykic purge a CSM? Not sure why he'd want to... but if he did, could it work?
Like blast the chaos out of someone, mutations you can live with for a while or hide them

I suppose a Radical Malleus/Hereticus Inquisitor might try have a powerful GK psychically drive the taint from someone, and then mind-wipe them into their own personal warband as an experiment, similar to how the Exorcists are supposedly made by driving a Daemon from a possessed aspirant to make them resistant/immune.

Really!? Wow thats a cool piece of fluff. Any references as to how they drive it out? Link please if there is one, it sounds interesting

 orksmasha wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 orksmasha wrote:
I was thinking maybe a Radical Inquisitor might try and mind wipe/psykic purge a CSM? Not sure why he'd want to... but if he did, could it work?
Like blast the chaos out of someone, mutations you can live with for a while or hide them

I suppose a Radical Malleus/Hereticus Inquisitor might try have a powerful GK psychically drive the taint from someone, and then mind-wipe them into their own personal warband as an experiment, similar to how the Exorcists are supposedly made by driving a Daemon from a possessed aspirant to make them resistant/immune.

Really!? Wow thats a cool piece of fluff. Any references as to how they drive it out? Link please if there is one, it sounds interesting

Lexicanum will probably have it, will try and get a hold of something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Exorcists#.VAzbyslwbqA

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
With a las-round through the face.

I thought you wanted to kill them?

Use melta/plasma, you bad!

Space marine's head + lascannon = headless space marine!

*Hybrid Son hits the Marine's head, rolls five ones on his 5d10 for Lascannon damage, inflicting no damage*

*Hybrid Son curses and fires again, hitting the head again, this time rolling the average result of 25, which is less than the Marine's wounds, so he tanks it like a damn boss*

Marines ain't givin' gak about your antitank weapons m8

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No but really, this kind of redemption just would not happen. There's just too much going against it. The CSM would never want to, and the Imperium would not want him back.

Sounds like the Exortionists where basicly the inqusitions attempt to create a new "grey knights chapter"

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
With a las-round through the face.

I thought you wanted to kill them?

Use melta/plasma, you bad!

Hell-las-round then!

In the old fluff, a Sensei, a literal son of the Emperor, could redeem chaos marines and champions who would lose all marks and signs of chaos upon redemption.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sensei#.VA0jkmK9KSM

Well there are a few instances of CSM deciding they dont want to serve Chaos anymore. Karnulon from the Word Bearers is what I can remember off the top of my head. But he just wanted to stick it to the Chaos gods after 10k years of lies, not rejoin the IoM.

So with all this in mind where do the thousand sons stand? They were trying to chaos powers for good and we all know where that got them, but. They then realised there ways and cast a spell to stop the curruption of chaos.

So with all this in mind where do the thousand sons stand? They were trying to chaos powers for good and we all know where that got them, but. They then realised there ways and cast a spell to stop the curruption of chaos.

They're a Traitor Legion. Most of their original members are mindless suits of empty armor.

It is easy enough to say kill all traitors, there is no forgiveness, but if the traitor has some useful information that helps you turn the tide of the battle...then does it again, and again, and again... You may start to rethink the idea that you must kill him. Perhaps after he provides you with invaluable informatio enough times, you can look past his previous indiscretions. Sure he can never be trusted and must always be carefully watched, but that death sentance may never need to come. Especially if this is all happening in one of the less carefully watched regions of the empire.

If you are a Radical, you might countenance keeping him alive, a prisoner, forever, as long as his utility holds out.

A Puritan recognizes the wiles of Chaos when he sees it, and knows that those victories were going to happen anyway, in accordance with the Emperor's Will, and this Traitor is just telling you things that were going to happen anyway. It is best to purge this blight from the galaxy, once and for all, by depositing him into the nearest star. This supposed-insight that is granting victory to your forces is simply the machinations of Chaos to wear away at your will. Let your armor be contempt.

 Psienesis wrote:


A Puritan recognizes the wiles of Chaos when he sees it, and knows that those victories were going to happen anyway, in accordance with the Emperor's Will, and this Traitor is just telling you things that were going to happen anyway. It is best to purge this blight from the galaxy, once and for all, by depositing him into the nearest star. This supposed-insight that is granting victory to your forces is simply the machinations of Chaos to wear away at your will. Let your armor be contempt.

Exactly. People need to stop thinking logically about this. Logic has no place in 40K. Hatred, fear, intolerance, and zealotry make the world go 'round, not rational thought and logic. Heretics are heretics, therefore: BLAM! Traitors are traitors, therefore: BLAM! Mutants are mutants, therefore: <INSERT FLAME THROWER NOISE>!

The absolute best a traitor could hope for is to be tortured to death by an Inquisitor, so that the pain can purify his soul. Then the Inquisitor would send that soul to meet the Emperor with a BLAM!

squidhills wrote:
Exactly. People need to stop thinking logically about this. Logic has no place in 40K. Hatred, fear, intolerance, and zealotry make the world go 'round.

A real Chaos Marine (as in the legions that joined Horus) isn't going to come crawling back for forgiveness. And if he does it's forgiveness at the end of a flamer.

But a renegade, one who happened to be in a misguided Chapter... Inquisitors are supremely practical. He could be let back in if he was suitably penitent and willing to take some risks. IIRC whole Chapters have been accepted back after certain penitent actions have been carried out. As that Badab War showed - the survivining marines on the wrong side who surrendered or were captured got off pretty lightly in Imperial terms. A hundred years of Penitent Crusade doesn't sound bad until you realize they're not allowed to recruit until it's done.

Because there is a difference between a Renegade and a Traitor. The latter are pawns of the Arch-Enemy.

I remember a short story from "Let the Galaxy Burn" anthology I think where a Ultramarines sergeant turns traitor but later is brought back by an Adepta Sororitas sister he fought off an on since he fell, and is sent back to the daemon prince who turned him carrying some kind of Exterminatus device that destroys the daemon and himself. So you can't really come back but you can recant and be granted the Emperor's absolution, i.e. death. That's basically what the Dark Angels do with the fallen, get them to recant and then execute them. I seem to remember the justification for this is that only the Emperor can judge someone who has turned traitor, and the only way to stand before the Emperor is in death.

I know of two cases in the fluff where a CSM decides to repent, but both were a "Redemption equals death" case. That Ultramarine from Daemonifuge mentioned above and a Ravenclaw in the Ultramarines novel series. Again, for both, the final redemption was in death and I'd be surprised if the Imperium would have it any other way. In the case of the Ravenclaw, the redemption WAS recognized at least (not sure if by the Imperium, but by fellow Space Marines at least)

livingdeadkid wrote:
I don't know but I swear that while reading the deathwatch rpg book I read something about former traitors becoming apart of the deathwatch as a black shield. I decided to check lexacanum and they strongly hint that former traitors do become members of the deathwatch.

That death watch snippet says that Black Shields can be marines who's BATTLE BROTHERS turned traitor, not them themselves. For example, an Astral Claw who remained loyal to the Imperium and never betrayed in the first place would become a Black Shield after the Badab War happened. It's up in the air whether ACTUAL traitors could become Black Shields.

That death watch snippet says that Black Shields can be marines who's BATTLE BROTHERS turned traitor, not them themselves. For example, an Astral Claw who remained loyal to the Imperium and never betrayed in the first place would become a Black Shield after the Badab War happened. It's up in the air whether ACTUAL traitors could become Black Shields.

A very important distinction.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Lamenters and Mantis Warriors turned traitor against the Imperium during the Badab War after following a leader later found out to be under the influence of Chaos. They were allowed to serve penance rather than being destroyed, so I would say yes.

In terms of physical corruption, the Black Dragons use mutant geneseed to encourage bone growths and are still around, so I wouldn't say mutations lead to automatic exterminatus by the Inquisition. Space Wolves have mutants [Wulfen]. It's pretty much on a case by case basis. However if the mutations can be proven to be down to chaos worship, expect a visit from your local friendly Inquisition Lord.

This seems to be a good description of what would happen. Those who have been duped or were unwilling traitors can be forgiven, but grimdark and the inquisition blah blah so unlikely. But not totally impossible

I think there are two things here.

1. Would a CSM ever WANT to go back? Would they feel remorse? Would they desire some sort of absolution? I would say yes, that is possible.

2. Would the IoM allow them back if they were sincere? The answer to that is an emphatic HELL NOOOOOOOOO.