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blaktoof wrote:
The unit from the formation is granted it, the IC is not a unit from the formation even when joined to a unit that is actually from the formation.

So the unit has the HoW rule. Agreed?
Is having the HoW rule a rules purpose? Yes or no?

its not unrelated, your dropping of the requirement "from the formation" is highly relevant and is the basis for your stance in the discussion.

It is unrelated - I've never said that anyone changes what formation or detachment they're a member of, so I don't need to cite rules to support that argument because it's not what I'm claiming.
Stop putting words in my mouth.

firstly the rule, again cause catchin up people are miss quoting it;

Fury of the Storm
Units from this Formation have the HoW special rule on the turn that they disembark from this formation's Stormraven Gunship

blaktoof wrote:
The unit from the formation is granted it, the IC is not a unit from the formation even when joined to a unit that is actually from the formation.

its not unrelated, your dropping of the requirement "from the formation" is highly relevant and is the basis for your stance in the discussion.

Terminator assault squad (TAS) from Formation
Independant Character (IC) from a CAD

Does TAS have HoW on deployment, no. IC joins them before deployment and becomes subject to their unit rules (BRB P.166: While an IC is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.)

The TAS (now with IC in toe) disembark, triggering Fury of the Storm, granting the Unit from the formation, which it is, HoW. the IC is "... part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."
The TAS (still from the formation) charge, unit now has HoW hits.

at no point does the IC change formation. nor does the TAS. the HoW is granted on the charge from a raven, its not a formation unit rule.

blaktoof wrote:
The unit from the formation is granted it, the IC is not a unit from the formation even when joined to a unit that is actually from the formation.

its not unrelated, your dropping of the requirement "from the formation" is highly relevant and is the basis for your stance in the discussion.

So the IC, a member of the unit for ALL rules purposes, doesn't gain the rule granted to the unit?

Please, cite where the rule is only given to models from the formation, and not the unit.

For the sake of argument, could this also be read from the other side? By which I mean, do you evaluate "Units from this Formation" to include units with a joined IC (the "gestalt unit") from outside the Formation as part of the Formation, or could the IC's presence in the unit effectively invalidate the gestalt unit's presence in the Formation, causing none of its constituent models to gain the special rules in question?

they are special rules not ongoing effects.

the models from a formation are given the special rule before the game begins- when they are organized into that formation, because that is the point they are units in the formation.

Just like models in a unit are given the special rules they have when they are selected.

so if you join a model from outside the formation, they model does not have the special rule.

There is clear RAW as to how special rules work when you join a model to a unit that has different special rules than the model joined, which would be the case here as the IC is never part of this formation.

it is not a unit rule, its formation benefit that grants a special rule to the models in the formation at the time they are organized into the formation, its not some ongoing psychic blessing that rains down on the unit every turn and ignores the RAW of how special rules are given to units/ICs and just bro hugs any IC that joins it.

this thread should already be locked before its 12 pages of rigeld2/nosferatu saying:

"an IC is a member of the unit for all purposes"

"its a unit special rule"

then I and others will say

"units can only belong to one formation"

"its a special rule granted to units in the formation"

"there is clear RAW as to how special rules confer from a unit to an IC and vice versa when an IC joins a unit with different special rules"

to which will be replied

"its a unit special rule why are you bringing up formations" (even though it says units in the formation..)

and

then it repeats.

12 pages.

blaktoof wrote:
The unit from the formation is granted it, the IC is not a unit from the formation even when joined to a unit that is actually from the formation.

its not unrelated, your dropping of the requirement "from the formation" is highly relevant and is the basis for your stance in the discussion.

I can understand your logic blaktoof but I have to agree with rigeld here. The point is that the entire unit gets the HOW, correct? That is what the rule says. If a unit is from that formation, all of the models in that unit have that HOW special rule on the turn that they disembark. You're saying, "but wait! The IC is not a part of that unit! He is a separate unit that is not in that formation!" If this were the case, some other things would be true. If the IC was a separate unit, you could target him specifically, could you not? Re-read the rules for an IC in the BRB. For all intents and purposes, he becomes part of the unit that he joins. Although HOW is not a USR that is conferred to models that join a unit typically, this formation specifically says that it must be. It makes no exceptions for any models in the unit to NOT have HOW - rather, it says the exact opposite - that the ENTIRE unit gets the HOW special rule. If the IC is part of the unit, he must also gain that rule. If he is not, feel free to target him independently in the shooting phase, as you would with any other separate unit.

Yes, it should be locked,as the clear rules dictate that the unit gains the rule, and the IC is. Member of the unit. You cannot refute that, so instead you try to claim irrelevancies, such as asking us to prove that the IC changes detachment,etc. Strawman fallacies will abound

Since I asked specific questions and you deliberately avoid answering them, or come up with a reason they're invalid, I must assume there's a reason.

the reason,

you are unable to discuss that the rule is granted to models in a formation.

then you are unable to discuss that rule applies to units from the formation.

you think the formation rules and the restriction that the special rule granted applies to models in a formation for following the formations restrictions/selection apply on a unit level because the word unit exists in the text, and ignore "units from the formation" which the IC clearly is not

then you want to ignore the rules for ICs joining units where the IC does not have the special rule the unit has, which is 100% the case here, and you want to say the IC gets it, because its a unit rule(its not a unit rule, its a units in a formation rule, and the IC is not a unit in that formation even when joined to said unit) and an IC is a member of the unit for all purposes while completely ignoring that hes not a member of the formation for all purposes. So great hes a member of the unit, bot not from that formation, so hes not a unit from that formation even when joined to a unit from it.

and in typical fashion from you and NOS the omission of the plain RAW "from this formation" is always followed with "bringing up the formation is irrelevant, strawman, blah blah we will not post any rules quotes of our own unless they purposefully omit RAW to validate our stance, then we ignore all else, blah blah."

blaktoof wrote:
the reason,

you are unable to discuss that the rule is granted to models in a formation.

Perhaps because the rule in question specifies "units"?

then you are unable to discuss that rule applies to units from the formation.

But... you just said models. I'm confused.

you think the formation rules and the restriction that the special rule granted applies to models in a formation for following the formations restrictions/selection apply on a unit level because the word unit exists in the text, and ignore "units from the formation" which the IC clearly is not

No, I'm not ignoring that at all. It doesn't change anything in my argument. Literally.

then you want to ignore the rules for ICs joining units where the IC does not have the special rule the unit has, which is 100% the case here, and you want to say the IC gets it, because its a unit rule(its not a unit rule, its a units in a formation rule, and the IC is not a unit in that formation even when joined to said unit) and an IC is a member of the unit for all purposes while completely ignoring that hes not a member of the formation for all purposes. So great hes a member of the unit, bot not from that formation, so hes not a unit from that formation even when joined to a unit from it.

He's not a unit from that formation. Agreed.
He's a member of a unit from that formation. Agreed?
You're asserting that a member of a unit in that formation does not benefit from a rule that says units in that formation benefit. Agreed?
Please cite a rule denying the benefit to a specific model.

and in typical fashion from you and NOS the omission of the plain RAW "from this formation" is always followed with "bringing up the formation is irrelevant, strawman, blah blah we will not post any rules quotes of our own unless they purposefully omit RAW to validate our stance, then we ignore all else, blah blah."

Um. No. Perhaps you could actually try and understand the argument instead of throwing out blind hate? "from this formation" isn't relevant. I agree that the IC isn't from that formation. Please use that sentence to destroy my argument. Hell, use that sentence to address my argument. He doesn't need to be. You keep saying that he does, but haven't proved it. I've posted rules quotes and omitted nothing, and I resent the accusation. You've posted nothing but "You're wrong. You deliberately misquote things."

The IC needs to be from that formation.

If you have the following

CAD
HQ- Chaplain
Troops- scouts
Troops- scouts

Formation
Ultra strike friends

The Chaplain from the CAD, is from the CAD

The units from the Ultra Strike Friends, are from the USF

If you combine the chaplain into a unit that is from the USF you have a unit that has models from the USF and Models from the CAD, so the unit isn't from the CAD, and the Unit isn't from the USF, the unit is comprised of models from Each.

They each have their own special rules from the unit entries, their wargear, armywide special rules, and possible formation/detachment special rules-which are noted on their force roster. There is clear RAW on how to handle this.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character,

claiming the IC is a unit from the USF when the IC is joined to it, is as incorrect as saying the USF unit is a unit from the CAD when the IC is joined to it.

There is no rule letting you count as being from the USF when you are joined to it, and there is no rule stating the unit is solely from that formation/detachment anymore. Because it is not.

saying the "from this formation" isnt relavent is the only way your arguement can exist, because it omits that RAW that it states "units from this formation" instead of "units"

if it stated just "units" you would be absolutely correct that the IC is part of the unit for all intents and purposes and the special rule would extend to them, but that it qualifies the unit as being from the formation X, that means that units not from formation x do not gain it, and when a IC is joined to a unit from formation X it does not become part of the unit in regards to which formation it is from.

However, all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

The IC is never a unit from the USF detachment, even when joined to a unit from it during deployment or the game.

as to your confusion, on models versus formation.

COMMAND BENEFITS
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

command benfits grant bonuses or special rules to models.

In the case of the USF, the models in units from the formation are given the special rule. The chaplain from the CAD is still not a model from a unit in the USF formation as it is a model in a unit from the CAD, even when joined to another unit from another formation.

blaktoof wrote:
If you combine the chaplain into a unit that is from the USF you have a unit that has models from the USF and Models from the CAD, so the unit isn't from the CAD, and the Unit isn't from the USF, the unit is comprised of models from Each.

Rulebook page 118, fourth paragraph, mid way through:

all of the units in your army must belong to a Detatchment and no unit can belong to more than one Detatchment.

The IC plus other unit is a single unit - to which Detatchment does it belong?

A good question that highlights many peoples misunderstanding on this issue.

Detachment. If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

It is a single unit in the game, but for the purpose of selecting your army and creating your force roster which is when you assign special rules from command benefits they are not a single unit. The reason this is because you create your detachments prior to the game beginning, and prior to deployment.

You do not get to assign special rules from detachments after army creation, they are assigned before you even deploy so the IC will never have access to the said special rule, because it is never a unit from the detachment when the command benefit is given to the detachment which is why the IC does not have the special rule when two are joined together.

so the unit from the USF will have the special rule on their force roster, and the IC will have whatever special rules it has, and as per the section on ICs joining units with different special rules the special rule has to call out it affects the entire unit if a model has it, e.g. stubborn/shrouded.

so great the IC is a member of the unit that was given a special rule to it before deployment that the IC now does not have. refer to above.

blaktoof wrote:
You do not get to assign special rules from detachments after army creation, they are assigned before you even deploy

Aye, continued reading the section after posting. Conjured units would also prove a problem if the rule I quoted was checked all game long.

I concede my point.

Blak - the unit is still from the formation. This is because the IC is treated as a normal member for ALL rules purposes. This is a rules purpose

Your concession in this is accepted, as you have literally no possible response to this

blaktoof wrote:
The unit from the formation is granted it, the IC is not a unit from the formation even when joined to a unit that is actually from the formation.

So the unit in the formation has the rule.
Meaning all models in the unit in the formation have the rule.
And yet you're asserting that one model doesn't.

its not unrelated, your dropping of the requirement "from the formation" is highly relevant and is the basis for your stance in the discussion.

No, it's not. Again, stop putting words in my mouth.
I've included it this time so you can actually address it instead of "no, you didn't type it YOUMISQUOTERULESANDARETEHLOSE" (Obvious paraphrase of your accusations).

Please, actually address my argument instead of telling me I'm wrong.

The only time you are permitted to give command benefits is before the game begins, before deployment.

How are you attaching the IC to the unit to get the special rule?

once you hit deployment the models that are units from the formation have the special rule, and the IC does not. There is no permission to give the special rule to the IC, and there is clear RAW on how to handle an IC joining a unit that has a special rule the IC does not have.

How are you attaching the IC to the unit before deployment to get the special rule?

blaktoof wrote:
The only time you are permitted to give command benefits is before the game begins, before deployment.

How are you attaching the IC to the unit to get the special rule?

once you hit deployment the models that are units from the formation have the special rule, and the IC does not. There is no permission to give the special rule to the IC, and there is clear RAW on how to handle an IC joining a unit that has a special rule the IC does not have.

How are you attaching the IC to the unit before deployment to get the special rule?

But what about command benefits that trigger AFTER the game begins such as: "when a unit assaults from the Stormraven it gains How"

blaktoof wrote:
The only time you are permitted to give command benefits is before the game begins, before deployment.

How are you attaching the IC to the unit to get the special rule?

once you hit deployment the models that are units from the formation have the special rule, and the IC does not. There is no permission to give the special rule to the IC, and there is clear RAW on how to handle an IC joining a unit that has a special rule the IC does not have.

How are you attaching the IC to the unit before deployment to get the special rule?

Yes, the rules are clear. When a rule says that the unit gets something, the unit gets it. Not "everyone in the unit except this guy that is part of the unit for all rules purposes except this one because ... I dunno why."

the thing you quoted doesnt exist in writing anywhere.

blaktoof wrote:
the thing you quoted doesnt exist in writing anywhere.

No, it's a paraphrase of your position. You're specifically saying one model doesn't get a rule when something says the unit gets the rule.

Like I said, the thing you quoted, and your follow up quote, do not exist in writing.

There is nothing that gives "a unit" a rule in formation benefits.

There are things that before deployment give the rule "Maximum Impact" that give units in that formation HoW when they disembark from that formations landraider.

That rule is granted to them before deployment, so an IC attached to it does not have that rule.

and isn't a unit from that formation- which are:
term captain, term squad, term assault squad, land raider crusader or reedemer.

there is clear RAW how an IC attached to a unit with different special rules interacts with that unit and its separate special rules.

ie the models in the unit with "Maximum impact" get HoW if they meet the requirements, the models without it do not benefit from the special rule.

The formation rule gives HoW to units in that formation. Correct?

rigeld2 wrote:
The formation rule gives HoW to units in that formation. Correct?

Correct, and since Unit's don't give special rules to ICs, unless you are specifically told otherwise, the unit has HoW, the IC from another detachment does not.

chanceafs wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The formation rule gives HoW to units in that formation. Correct?

Correct, and since Unit's don't give special rules to ICs, unless you are specifically told otherwise, the unit has HoW, the IC from another detachment does not.

The IC is the unit.

chanceafs wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The formation rule gives HoW to units in that formation. Correct?

Correct, and since Unit's don't give special rules to ICs, unless you are specifically told otherwise, the unit has HoW, the IC from another detachment does not.

If a unit has a rule, all models in the unit get the rule. Correct?

chanceafs wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The formation rule gives HoW to units in that formation. Correct?

Correct, and since Unit's don't give special rules to ICs, unless you are specifically told otherwise, the unit has HoW, the IC from another detachment does not.

The unit isnt giving the rule to the IC. Every model in the unit gets the rule, including the IC. SLight difference.

The only way i can see the assignment not working, (Because by RaW Nos & Rigeld are correct) is a timing argument:

Fury of the Storm is assigned to Units of the Detachment before we get to the deployment (and IC joining).

"Units from this Formation have the HoW special rule on the turn that they disembark from this formation's Stormraven Gunship " Is given to the Unit before deployment, and then (timing) the IC joins the Unit. The IC model does not have the previous stated rule when it comes to using it.

The Unit has a blanked out HoW rule, then the IC is joined, and then the rule is used upon disembarking.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

From the above, i am stating "indicated in its Army List Entry" means it is in play before the game starts, and it is not a case of "The Unit gets HoW" (IC gets it), but a case of "The Unit has Fury of the Storm" (and so they have HoW) and you then start your game, Deployment, and IC joining the Unit.

You could write in pencil in your codex that Terminator assault squads have Fury of the Storm, but cannot write it next to the IC as he is not in the unit until deployment.

Wishful "can't apply Formation rules to IC", but by RAI to apply them before the game starts. Can only Assume RaW as there is none about said timing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although i'll counter-argument myself by reading Special Rules:

Most special rules are given to a model by the relevant Army List Entry or its unit type. That said, a model’s attacks can gain special rules because of the weapon it is using. Similarly a model might get special rules as the result of psychic powers, scenario special rules or being hunkered down in a particular type of terrain. Where this is the case, the rule that governs the psychic power, scenario or terrain type in question will make this abundantly clear.

Emphasis seems to RAI that the HoW in the previous example is only "Obtained" at the point in time when the Unit disembarks.

I can only say that Fury of the Storm is the Special Rule only the Unit has before being joined by the IC, and not sure it would make a difference...

No.

Formation special rules/command benefits are granted before deployment.

the special rule isnt

"units get to do x"

the special rule is "maximum impact" it is given to units in the formation.

when is it given?

before deployment

what are the units in the formation?

1 terminator captain
1 terminator assault squad
1 terminator squad
1 land raider redeemer or crusader

what is the special rule? the models get HoW when they dismebark from the formations landraider

As the special rule is given to the formation units before deployment you cannot join an outside IC to it, so an outside IC would not have the special rule.

Furthermore the misinterpretation you are all supporting that the special rule is not hammer of wrath for models with Maximum impact when they dismebark, but rather the special rule is units from the formation get HoW when they disembark is also wrong as that incorrect misrepresentation of the rules still has "units from the formation" which an attached IC is not, as per the rules for being in 1 formation and not being allowed to switch, and as per the formation itself which calls out which units are in the formation specfically. Without specific permission for an IC to count as being a unit from the formation, and not just a member of the unit, its not in the formation.

Further supporting the obvious that "units from this formation" is telling you who gets the special rule MAXIMUM impact, and is not part of the rule is the following rule.

"Swift deployment" which specifies the terminator squad is the one receiving it.

in summation.

outside IC is never part of the formation

outside IC is not joined to the formation when they are given the special rules for being in a formation

"units in this formation" specifics that all the units in the formation receive the special rule before deployment, as shown by the special rules that are limited to only certain units in the formation following it as precedence that obviously this is who receives what benefits/Special rules and not the rule themselves which is HoW, and run and shoot respectively.

the attached IC does not have the special rule.

refer to ICs joining units with special rules they do not have.

they do not get the special rule.

Again, you continually asset nonsense about the IC changing detachment. This has never been an argument. Stop repeating if as if it has any merit, or as if you're rebutting a point, as yourc not

The IC is, indisputably, a normal member of the unit in the formation when they disembark. They are, indisputably, granted the rule when the unit disembarks.