Strike Force Ultra Query

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**blaktoof**

yes, if you manage to omit the words from the rules until it states what you desire then yes, the unit magically is granted a rule to everyone in the unit.

again you continually assert nonsense and perpetuate false rules.

**nosferatu1001**

Nope, the IC rules are clear. The rule is granted to the unit, and the IC ID, without a doubt , a member of the unit.
Desist in making up rules and strawman arguments, step back and realise your error. You're wrong in this. I am making up nothing.

**blaktoof**

really? because the RAW doesn't say anywhere that units get the rule.

I see that you manage to poke meaningless insults at someone who actually cites rules while you do not, I am not sure you realize what a straw man argument is, because in actuality it is what you are proposing.

a nice cherry picked strawman argument.

do you actually think if you say these false things without any rules basis while cherry picking that somehow you are correct?

**nosferatu1001**

Really, apart from the rule given, and quoted, stating exactly otherwise? That its a unit granted rule? Or are you going to further undermine your failed argument by quoting generic formation rules that are overridden here by a more specific rule? For the nth time?

Your argument was retired page one, and it stays that way.

**blaktoof**

you actually have not quoted a rule. yet.

pls keep trolling for your post count.

**nosferatu1001**

Nice edit there. Reported.

Did I state I quoted it, or that the rule was quoted?

I am fully aware of what a strawman argument is. You constructed one, and are desperate.y holding onto it, by making up gak about IC changing detachment as if it were an argument the correct side had made, that IS a strawman, as you made up an argument that you could attack, instead of addressing the actual arguments.

I give nothing at all about post count.

**JinxDragon**

I feel like reporting this thread, with the 'no you concede' and 'no you're a troll' going back and forth, but at the same time... train-wreck and all.

**Janthkin**

KNOCK IT OFF.

**Happyjew**

blaktoof wrote:
No.

Formation special rules/command benefits are granted before deployment.

the special rule isnt

"units get to do x"

the special rule is "maximum impact" it is given to units in the formation.

when is it given?

before deployment

what are the units in the formation?

1 terminator captain
1 terminator assault squad
1 terminator squad
1 land raider redeemer or crusader

what is the special rule? the models get HoW when they dismebark from the formations landraider

As the special rule is given to the formation units before deployment you cannot join an outside IC to it, so an outside IC would not have the special rule.

Furthermore the misinterpretation you are all supporting that the special rule is not hammer of wrath for models with Maximum impact when they dismebark, but rather the special rule is units from the formation get HoW when they disembark is also wrong as that incorrect misrepresentation of the rules still has "units from the formation" which an attached IC is not, as per the rules for being in 1 formation and not being allowed to switch, and as per the formation itself which calls out which units are in the formation specfically. Without specific permission for an IC to count as being a unit from the formation, and not just a member of the unit, its not in the formation.

Further supporting the obvious that "units from this formation" is telling you who gets the special rule MAXIMUM impact, and is not part of the rule is the following rule.

"Swift deployment" which specifies the terminator squad is the one receiving it.

in summation.

outside IC is never part of the formation

outside IC is not joined to the formation when they are given the special rules for being in a formation

"units in this formation" specifics that all the units in the formation receive the special rule before deployment, as shown by the special rules that are limited to only certain units in the formation following it as precedence that obviously this is who receives what benefits/Special rules and not the rule themselves which is HoW, and run and shoot respectively.

the attached IC does not have the special rule.

refer to ICs joining units with special rules they do not have.

they do not get the special rule.

I think I see the confusion. The underline is false. That or the numerous times the rule has been quoted is false.

I agree that only the models in the formation have the special rule "Maximum Impact". I also agree that an IC that joins a unit from the formation does not get "Maximum Impact". However, Maximum Impact says the [i]unit[/u] gets HoW. If it said "models get HoW" or "units comprised entirely of models with this special rule..." then HoW would not extend to the IC.

**Creeperman**

Happyjew wrote:
I think I see the confusion. The underline is false. That or the numerous times the rule has been quoted is false.

I agree that only the models in the formation have the special rule "Maximum Impact". I also agree that an IC that joins a unit from the formation does not get "Maximum Impact". However, Maximum Impact says the unit gets HoW. If it said "models get HoW" or "units comprised entirely of models with this special rule..." then HoW would not extend to the IC.

Yes, upon closer inspection that's my interpretation too. No one should be arguing that the attached IC has Maximum Impact, because that's a rule specific to units selected as part of the Formation. However, Maximum Impact specifically grants the unit the Hammer of Wrath special rule when assaulting from the unit's Land Raider. By RAW, everyone in the unit gets HoW.

Unfortunately, this is a result of GW's typically lax writing which often uses the term "unit" interchangeably to refer to either squads or models, which would be much more concise and avoid these kinds of arguments.

**blaktoof**

I still disagree.

the rule doesn't actually state that "units get this special rule"

it states:

Maximum Impact:
Units from this Formation have the Hammer of Wrath special rule on anyturn in which they disembark from this Formation’s Land Raider.

The formation is specified as:

Formation
A 1st Company Hammerfall Assault Force consists of the following units:
• 1 Terminator Captain
• 1 Terminator Squad
• 1 Terminator Assault Squad
• 1 Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer

as per the BRB it receives certain benefits for being in a formation, these benefits are granted to each model in the formation that is allowed the benefit.

COMMAND BENEFITS
This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment.

They receive these benefits before the game begins, before deployment as they are noted on their force roster at this time.

If you choose to use a Battle-forged army, you must tell your opponent what units belong to what Detachments and what Command Benefits each will receive (if any) before you start deploying your army.

so it is not possible for a unit outside of the formation to have the special rule noted as a special rule, as they are obtained before deployment when you could join an outside IC to the unit.

Now further let's look at the two special rules this formation receives.

Special Rules

Maximum Impact:
Units from this Formation have the Hammer of Wrath special rule on anyturn in which they disembark from this Formation’s Land Raider.
Swift Deployment:
This Formation’s Terminator Squad can Run and shoot on the turn it arrives by Deep Strike.

So we have two special rules, "Maximum Impact" and "Swift Deployment"

Now either ALL models in the formation receive the special rules, which in the case of swift deployment makes no sense as then you have a lot of models that do not benefit from the special rule as it calls out the terminator squad (which must be 5 models) specifically, and it makes no sense for the other models to have this special rule.

OR

the first part of the text of the special rule is not the special rule but instead who in the formation receives the special rule before deployment.

IE all the units in the formation receive "maximum impact" which gives those models HoW on the turn they disembark

and the terminator squad additionally receives "swift deployment"

this is would end up with the units not having special rules that are not usable to them and despite the poor writing of the authors makes RAW sense.

additionally even without the above, the special rule maximum impact does not specify "the unit receives HoW" but that "units from this formation have HoW"

if you look at the list above those are hard set units in the formation. You cannot add models to a formation that are not in it, so although an IC could join the unit, it is not a unit from the formation and RAW cannot claim to be a member of that detachment, as it would already be a member of its own detachment.

all of the units in your army must belong to a Detachment and no unit can belong to more than one Detachment.

Which would break the above RAW.

**nosferatu1001**

Do not "quote" when they arent actually quotes.

Again, noone has stated the IC has switched to another detachment. That is a strawman you keep constructing.

The Unit gains HoW when it disembarks. The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes, when the unit disembarks. THe unit, including the IC, MUST gain HoW, or you have broken a rule.

**BlackTalos**

Happyjew wrote:
I agree that only the models in the formation have the special rule "Maximum Impact". I also agree that an IC that joins a unit from the formation does not get "Maximum Impact". However, Maximum Impact says the [i]unit[/u] gets HoW. If it said "models get HoW" or "units comprised entirely of models with this special rule..." then HoW would not extend to the IC.

My two posts in a single line.....

Unfortunately as is pointed out, the timing of the granted HoW is "on any turn", and to "Units (from this Formation)". I wish they'd written this better, as you say with "models" .
The IC never gets the "Maximum Impact" USR though...

**RAWRAIrobblerobble**

BlackTalos wrote:
Happyjew wrote:
I agree that only the models in the formation have the special rule "Maximum Impact". I also agree that an IC that joins a unit from the formation does not get "Maximum Impact". However, Maximum Impact says the [i]unit[/u] gets HoW. If it said "models get HoW" or "units comprised entirely of models with this special rule..." then HoW would not extend to the IC.

My two posts in a single line.....

Unfortunately as is pointed out, the timing of the granted HoW is "on any turn", and to "Units (from this Formation)". I wish they'd written this better, as you say with "models" .
The IC never gets the "Maximum Impact" USR though...

I think the proper reading it that the unit (from the formation) gets the rule. Every other interpretation thus far relies on a bit of "but I really want it" and selective quoting.

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit

G1: When does the IC join the unit? When specifying reserves.
P1: When does the formation's units get access to the HoW/MI rule? When making the list.
P2: Is the IC part of the formation during P1? No.
P3: When does the MI rule get invoked and convey the HoW attack?: When disembarking.

The IC fails at P2.

**blaktoof**

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do not "quote" when they arent actually quotes.

Again, noone has stated the IC has switched to another detachment. That is a strawman you keep constructing.

The Unit gains HoW when it disembarks. The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes, when the unit disembarks. THe unit, including the IC, MUST gain HoW, or you have broken a rule.

your inability to cite or state the actual rule, coupled with omission of words to suit your point is amazing.

**nosferatu1001**

blaktoof wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Do not "quote" when they arent actually quotes.

Again, noone has stated the IC has switched to another detachment. That is a strawman you keep constructing.

The Unit gains HoW when it disembarks. The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes, when the unit disembarks. THe unit, including the IC, MUST gain HoW, or you have broken a rule.

your inability to cite or state the actual rule, coupled with omission of words to suit your point is amazing.

The rule was already quoted. I don't feel the need to repeat it, for no real reason, just your inane request.

Still not recalling your strawman? Or your other fallacies?