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I'm interested in your opinions on something to do with Strike force ultra. Mainly I am wondering if it is possible for the Stormraven to also carry another HQ, ie a Chaplain or Librarian (in terminator aromour), which it has space for. I have come across differing views on this, and will state bellow what I have come across so far, although I am inclined to say I CAN add another model to the unit in the Raven;

Rules;


Now, I say adding a Chaplain to the assault squad does not break these restrictions as;
1- the assault termies are embarked.
3- the assault termies are 5 models strong.

but it begs the question, since when an independent character that joins a unit is considered part of it, does the Chaplain gain HoW on disembarking? (not sur on this).


But the main problem is when you take the full strikeforce, as it gains the ability to arrive turn 1, something the Chaplain cannot normally do, although by joining the formations unit he can. (somthing which I think is ok, as he is part of the unit, and no restrictions are broken by adding him.)

As long as the transport capacity of the stormraven is not exceeded, there is nothing stopping you from attaching IC's to the terminator squad.

Note however that the characters, since not purchased for the formation, will not receive the hammer of wrath attacks.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Note however that the characters, since not purchased for the formation, will not receive the hammer of wrath attacks.

This statement might not be correct - it depends on how the formation benefit is worded.

??? how so


HoW is a model by model special rule. Formation USR's do not carry over to attached models not from the formation.


If it said the unit gained stealth or shrouded i would agree the IC got the benefit since that USR carries to all models in the unit, but HoW does not work that way.

Eihnlazer wrote:
??? how so


HoW is a model by model special rule. Formation USR's do not carry over to attached models not from the formation.


If it said the unit gained stealth or shrouded i would agree the IC got the benefit since that USR carries to all models in the unit, but HoW does not work that way.

If the benefit says "the unit gets HoW" then the IC would get it because he is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Units from the formation get it.

An attached IC is not from the formation and HoW is not a USR that carries over.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Units from the formation get it.

An attached IC is not from the formation and HoW is not a USR that carries over.

its a part of the unit, and the unit is still from the detachment. The unit doesn't subdivide into partial detachments

formation benefits are specifically called out to not carry over to models not from the formation.

Eihnlazer wrote:
formation benefits are specifically called out to not carry over to models not from the formation.

This formation specifically calls out units which the IC is a part of for all rules purposes

 CrownAxe wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
formation benefits are specifically called out to not carry over to models not from the formation.

This formation specifically calls out units which the IC is a part of for all rules purposes

Which is what i'm inclined to say, although 1 HoW doesn't really bother me.
Full rule;

a- the unit is granted HoW on the charge. Its not like jump infantry who have the rule on model by model right.
b- the IC has joined the unit, which is chosen as part of the formation. so the unit is still chosen as part of the formation, that fact never changes, the IC is subject to the rules?

Eihnlazer wrote:
formation benefits are specifically called out to not carry over to models not from the formation.

Citation required.

The unit gains the ability. Is the IC a member of the unit for all rules purposes? Please answer yes or no. Simple question, please don't avoid it.

Does that mean if one guy has a flamer, everyone else in the squad also get the Wall of Death rule? 31d3 hits is pretty good overwatch for an ork mob with 1 flamer toting character. If not, your guys don't Hammer of Wrath either.

As I read it "part of the unit for rule purposes" means that rules that affect the UNIT affect the character, not rules that any model get are given to all models in the unit - unless there is something that says "if any model in the unit has, then the unit gets" stuff.

rigeld2 wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
formation benefits are specifically called out to not carry over to models not from the formation.

Citation required.

The unit gains the ability. Is the IC a member of the unit for all rules purposes? Please answer yes or no. Simple question, please don't avoid it.

Yes, he is see the OP it quotes the BRB on ICs in units

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:Does that mean if one guy has a flamer, everyone else in the squad also get the Wall of Death rule? 31d3 hits is pretty good overwatch for an ork mob with 1 flamer toting character. If not, your guys don't Hammer of Wrath either.

As I read it "part of the unit for rule purposes" means that rules that affect the UNIT affect the character, not rules that any model get are given to all models in the unit - unless there is something that says "if any model in the unit has, then the unit gets" stuff.

If anything that helps my point.

in the case of HoW on jump infantry, they get HoW on a model by model bases so an IC wouldn't get it too. This rule is granted to the UNIT when they all charge. the IC has joined the unit.

Fury of the Storm
Units from this Formation have the HoW special rule on the turn that they disembark from this formation's Stormraven Gunship

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Does that mean if one guy has a flamer, everyone else in the squad also get the Wall of Death rule? 31d3 hits is pretty good overwatch for an ork mob with 1 flamer toting character. If not, your guys don't Hammer of Wrath either.

No, because that's not how Wall of Death is worded. Please don't bring in rules that are worded completely differently as an argument.

As I read it "part of the unit for rule purposes" means that rules that affect the UNIT affect the character, not rules that any model get are given to all models in the unit - unless there is something that says "if any model in the unit has, then the unit gets" stuff.

That's correct.
Now - who gets Hammer of Wrath according to the following rule - units or models?

Units from this Formation have the HoW special rule on the turn that they disembark from this formation's Stormraven Gunship

rigeld2 wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Does that mean if one guy has a flamer, everyone else in the squad also get the Wall of Death rule? 31d3 hits is pretty good overwatch for an ork mob with 1 flamer toting character. If not, your guys don't Hammer of Wrath either.

No, because that's not how Wall of Death is worded. Please don't bring in rules that are worded completely differently as an argument.

As I read it "part of the unit for rule purposes" means that rules that affect the UNIT affect the character, not rules that any model get are given to all models in the unit - unless there is something that says "if any model in the unit has, then the unit gets" stuff.

That's correct.
Now - who gets Hammer of Wrath according to the following rule - units or models?

Units from this Formation have the HoW special rule on the turn that they disembark from this formation's Stormraven Gunship

If it is literally:
"Units from this Formation have the HoW special rule on the turn that they disembark from this formation's Stormraven Gunship"
Then the unit gets it. If any model in the unit has it, the unit has it, not necessarily every model though. Personally I'd allow it - it doesn't seem OP and one extra guy, hitting at what is likely S4 in exchange for a DT in the case where 1) He starts in a StormRaven, 2) He disembarks (likely taking a test) 3) He successfully gets into B2B contact (to invoke the HoW).

I'd probably hide my libbie in the back but within 2" so he can swing but not be swung at, but that's me.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Then the unit gets it.

So you didn't bother to actually read the thread, where the actual rule has been posted at least twice and just wanted to disagree with me? That's fine, but know that I didn't misquote the rule at all.
And next time, don't come in with horribly made arguments like "WELL THEN EVERYONE CAN WOD IF THERES ONE FLAMERZ" in an attempt to discredit someone's argument.

The HoW special rule is given to models on a model by model basis as per the rules for command benefits / formation special rules.

BEFORE the game begins every model in a unit from that formation gets HoW special rule. No one from outside the formation gets that formations command benefit, as models may only belong to one formation and may not change formations.

A model from a formation other than that formation does not become a member of that formation when joined to a unit from that formation. An IC may "count as a member of the unit for all rules purposes", but it does not have the special rule HoW by joining the unit, because the IC in question is not a "unit from that formation". You cannot be counted as a member of a formation different than the one you are chosen from, nothing so far allows this.

so in this case, yes you can join a chaplain to the unit if there is room in the stormraven, but as per the section on ICs and special rules, unless the special rule specifically says it extends to the entire unit if any model has it e.g. stubborn, shrouded, then the chaplain will not have HoW, the rest of the unit however of course would.

its the same reason that Orks cannot join Ghaz to a an ork horde formation and call endless waaaghs with 2+ invulnerbles from Ghaz, ghaz is not a unit/model from that formation. Nothing in the game changes which formation you are from, even joining units from other formations.

blaktoof wrote:
The HoW special rule is given to models on a model by model basis as per the rules for command benefits / formation special rules.

BEFORE the game begins every model in a unit from that formation gets HoW special rule. No one from outside the formation gets that formations command benefit, as models may only belong to one formation and may not change formations.

A model from a formation other than that formation does not become a member of that formation when joined to a unit from that formation. An IC may "count as a member of the unit for all rules purposes", but it does not have the special rule HoW by joining the unit, because the IC in question is not a "unit from that formation". You cannot be counted as a member of a formation different than the one you are chosen from, nothing so far allows this.

so in this case, yes you can join a chaplain to the unit if there is room in the stormraven, but as per the section on ICs and special rules, unless the special rule specifically says it extends to the entire unit if any model has it e.g. stubborn, shrouded, then the chaplain will not have HoW, the rest of the unit however of course would.

its the same reason that Orks cannot join Ghaz to a an ork horde formation and call endless waaaghs with 2+ invulnerbles from Ghaz, ghaz is not a unit/model from that formation. Nothing in the game changes which formation you are from, even joining units from other formations.

No one is changing formations in this case, not sure how Ghaz and the Green Tide are worded. In this case the BRB for IC joining a unit kicks in. The UNIT, not the MODELS, in the RAW of the rule gains HoW,. Any IC joining a UNIT would get UNIT wide rules, as it becomes part of the UNIT for all rules purposes. By the same token, if the IC leaves a UNIT, it loses all UNIT wide rules it may have gained.

If the rule stated "all models in this formation gain HoW" then an IC joining the unit would not gain HoW becuase it was never part of the formation.

the unit does not gain the rule.

"units from the formation get the special rule"

an IC joined to the unit is not a unit from that formation.

it is not a unit wide rule, its a formation wide rule granted to units from that formation.

COMMAND BENEFITS This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

the attached IC is never a model from the other detachment, even when joined to the unit.

in order for the IC to benefit from the rule, the rule would have to either state:
1- Specifically call out it extends to the unit if any model has it, ie stubborn/shrouded
or
2- not say the words "from this formation" when it grants the special rule.

In the case of Strike Force Ultra, I want to so say the Formation Restriction makes this a moot point. You are told what models are allowed to go were in this formation at deployment.

I suppose you could land the Raven on Turn 3 to embark the IC and then go for a turn 4 or 5 assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
the unit does not gain the rule.

"units from the formation get the special rule"

an IC joined to the unit is not a unit from that formation.

it is not a unit wide rule, its a formation wide rule granted to units from that formation.

COMMAND BENEFITS This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

the attached IC is never a model from the other detachment, even when joined to the unit.

It most definitely is a unit form that formation or this argument would not even exist. Also the BRB say so.

Your real point of contention appears to be the rule a "Formation wide rule and only apply to models in the original formation" vs it is a "Formation Wide Rule that gives rules to units in the formation".

I think I agree with barnowl. It says in the formation restrictions that the terminator squads must be composed of five models.

barnowl wrote:
In the case of Strike Force Ultra, I want to so say the Formation Restriction makes this a moot point. You are told what models are allowed to go were in this formation at deployment.

I suppose you could land the Raven on Turn 3 to embark the IC and then go for a turn 4 or 5 assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
the unit does not gain the rule.

"units from the formation get the special rule"

an IC joined to the unit is not a unit from that formation.

it is not a unit wide rule, its a formation wide rule granted to units from that formation.

COMMAND BENEFITS This section of the Detachment lists any special rules or benefits that apply to some or all of the models in that Detachment. For example, the units in a Combined Arms Detachment benefit from the Ideal Mission Commander and Objective Secured special rules.

the attached IC is never a model from the other detachment, even when joined to the unit.

It most definitely is a unit form that formation or this argument would not even exist. Also the BRB say so.

Your real point of contention appears to be the rule a "Formation wide rule and only apply to models in the original formation" vs it is a "Formation Wide Rule that gives rules to units in the formation".

no, my point is that at no time is a IC from formation A in formation B, even if joined to a unit from formation B.

chaplain from formation A with its own command benefits

Unit from formation B with its own command benefits

A unit comprised of models from formation A and formation B is not a unit from from formation B as there is obviously a model from not that formation so it would be incorrect to say the unit entirely, or solely, is from formation A or B. The unit has models from formation A and it has models from Formation B. There is no requirement for a unit to be made up solely of models from a singular formation, however there is no rule allowing models to join or combine formations when this happens, in fact there is the RAW that a model can never belong to more than one detachment/formation.


Command benefits are special rules. They are given to the models in the formation. So before the start of the game on your force roster you are required to state which formation each model is in, in many cases this will be on a unit by unit basis. Those models then gain the special rule from their formation.

There is no joning/leaving/ gaining formations past that point. To say otherwise is the same as saying if you join an IC to a unit that has stubborn the IC gains stubborn because he is part of that unit for all rules purposes. This is completely false, the IC does not gain special rules models in the unit have, and the unit does not gain special rules the IC has. You must refer to the section on ICs and special rules which tells you what to do when an IC joins a unit with different special rules than its own, which is whats happening in this case. The IC with its special rules A is joining a unit with its special rules B. There is very clear RAW as to how those special rules confer to each other.

And we've been here befor.e

No one claims that the IC is a unit from the formation. He is, however, indisputably a member of the unit. And the unit gains how, meaning every member must gain it.

As ever you are, without cause, breaking the rules by not treating the IC as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

blaktoof wrote:
no, my point is that at no time is a IC from formation A in formation B, even if joined to a unit from formation B.

chaplain from formation A with its own command benefits

Unit from formation B with its own command benefits

Irrelevant but correct statements.

A unit comprised of models from formation A and formation B is not a unit from from formation B as there is obviously a model from not that formation so it would be incorrect to say the unit entirely, or solely, is from formation A or B.

So what formation is it from? And why are you not treating the IC as a member of the unit from formation B for all rules purposes?

The unit has models from formation A and it has models from Formation B. There is no requirement for a unit to be made up solely of models from a singular formation, however there is no rule allowing models to join or combine formations when this happens, in fact there is the RAW that a model can never belong to more than one detachment/formation.

The model never changes formations. No one has said that it has. Please drop that argument.

Command benefits are special rules. They are given to the models in the formation.

Really? The quoted rule says otherwise. Perhaps you could actually cite a rule?

There is no joning/leaving/ gaining formations past that point.

No one has argued that this has happened. Please understand what's being said instead of inventing something to argue against.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And we've been here befor.e

No one claims that the IC is a unit from the formation. He is, however, indisputably a member of the unit. And the unit gains how, meaning every member must gain it.

As ever you are, without cause, breaking the rules by not treating the IC as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

You are correct... the UNIT gians HoW. However HoW is a special rule, and unless stated otherwise, unit's do not confer special rules to an IC that joins them. HoW does not say it is conferred, therefor the IC does not have it.

The problem is formatting, and it is a formatting problem we have seen before:
The Writers creating a 'Unit Level' Rule for something that is only found on individual Models.

As we all should know, Special Rules are found on individual Models by default or awarded to Models through situational bonuses such as having the correct War-gear. This is reinforced in the section detailing the common Special Rules when they inform us how to go about verifying what Special Rules the Model have, by looking at the Army List Entry. Further more reinforced by the Army List Entry Explained section which informs us that the Special Rules listed within are applied to the Models that make up that Army List Entry. These are simple Advanced Rules that can be over-written by something in a Codex, true, but it shows the clear intent for Special Rules to be something that individual Models possess.

So what happens if a Special is granted instead to the Unit as a whole and not the individual Models within?
The only correct answer is for the Authors never to create such a situation....

chanceafs wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And we've been here befor.e

No one claims that the IC is a unit from the formation. He is, however, indisputably a member of the unit. And the unit gains how, meaning every member must gain it.

As ever you are, without cause, breaking the rules by not treating the IC as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

You are correct... the UNIT gians HoW. However HoW is a special rule, and unless stated otherwise, unit's do not confer special rules to an IC that joins them. HoW does not say it is conferred, therefor the IC does not have it.

Is the IC a member of the unit for all rules purposes? We know that, based on the rules, the answer is yes.
So please, cite the rule allowing a model in a Unit that gains HoW to not gain HoW.

rigeld2 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And we've been here befor.e

No one claims that the IC is a unit from the formation. He is, however, indisputably a member of the unit. And the unit gains how, meaning every member must gain it.

As ever you are, without cause, breaking the rules by not treating the IC as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

You are correct... the UNIT gians HoW. However HoW is a special rule, and unless stated otherwise, unit's do not confer special rules to an IC that joins them. HoW does not say it is conferred, therefor the IC does not have it.

Is the IC a member of the unit for all rules purposes? We know that, based on the rules, the answer is yes.
So please, cite the rule allowing a model in a Unit that gains HoW to not gain HoW.

The IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

However the IC is not a unit from that formation, nor is it a member of the formation it joins regarding all rules purposes.

So no, it does not gain the units from formation X special rule.

Cite permission for the IC to be a member of a different formation, ie a unit from formation X instead of the formation it comes from.

blaktoof wrote:
However the IC is not a unit from that formation, nor is it a member of the formation it joins regarding all rules purposes.

Correct! (but irrelevant)

So no, it does not gain the units from formation X special rule.

The IC does not. The unit, however, is granted HoW. Agreed?

Cite permission for the IC to be a member of a different formation, ie a unit from formation X instead of the formation it comes from.

No. Because that's not the argument I'm making. Please don't ask for unrelated rules citations - you're attempting to distract from the actual topic.

The unit from the formation is granted it, the IC is not a unit from the formation even when joined to a unit that is actually from the formation.

its not unrelated, your dropping of the requirement "from the formation" is highly relevant and is the basis for your stance in the discussion.