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 wuestenfux wrote:
Well. The playable units are

Jetseer, DA, FD, Serpents
Wraith knight, Warwalkers, Jetbikes, Jetseer Council
Guardians, Wraithguard and variants
Rangers, Fireprisms.

Squeeze in Warpspiders somewhere.

I don't know why people believe that half the book is unplayable. I mean really the only units that I can think of in the codex that are just not playable are banshees, wraithlords, and falcons. Banshees have had pages written about why they are just not viable anymore. IMO Wraithlords are pretty much instantly replaceable by wraithknights and falcons are not better than wave serpents since they both do about the same thing except the falcon has to contend with the other heavy supports which do something wave serpents don't do. The only other thing in the book I can't find a use for are a couple of the phoenix lords.

I've recently started an Eldar army as well and I think the post that said "pick a theme" hit the nail on the head. Looking over the elder codex I didn't find any single units that seemed worse than other (but not having a good delivery method for howling banshees does suck) and so a lot of lists are viable.

Serpent spam is obviously pretty powerful. It seems to be a go-to for tournies.

Personally I wanted a themed force and so I opted for rangers and jetbikes as my troops.

Want a super quick force that can fly circles around your opponent? Get windrider jetbikes as troops and then put a farseer on a bike (or autarch if you like) to go with a squad. elder have enough skimmer units to support them.

Want a more infiltrate based army? Take rangers as your troop choice and use war walkers to support them.

Hard hitting low model count force? Get a spirit seer to make wraithguard a troops choice and lay waste to your opponent.

Guardians are a cheap troop choice and I haven't looked into them too much but I'm sure they fit a role. Dire avengers are another popular choice, mostly in WS from my knowledge.

Bharring is a smart guy btw. Eldar units are specialists, they do some things very well and fall flat on others. Overall the codex is very balanced that way. the trick is to find units that will synergize and complement each others strengths and weaknesses.

The best part of the Eldar codex is with just about everything being viable (except for Howling Banshees and Harlequins) is that you can surprise your oppenent with anything. Here is a 1500 pt list I used that has 0 Wave serpents and I had a blast with it ans do did my opponent (salamanders chapter Space marines).

Autarch: Wrap Jump Pack, Banshee Mask, Scorpion Chainsword, Fusion Gun
Warlocks x2
Guardians x11: Star Cannon
Guardians x10: Star Cannon
Guardians x10: Star Cannon
Wraithknight
Warp Spiders x10
Swooping hawks x5
Swooping Hawk Exarch: Sunrifle
Crimson Hunter Exarch
War Walkers x3: Scatter Laser, Bright Lance, Star Engines

You dont always have to do the best list to have fun playing the game.

First off morgoth is one of those clowns who is way too opinionated and anyone who follows the eldar posts on this forum comes to realize this very quicky. SO take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Second, the battle force is a great place to start. You basically get a free vyper which isn't a great unit but it definitely adds speed and fire power until you bulk out your collection. And lets face it eldar is all about speed and fire power. After the battle force I would get a farseer (I proxy mine as spiritseers sometimes and no one has ever had a problem wiith it), a wraithknight, a box of 3 warwalkers and a second serpent.

That will give you a competitive starter army with some troops, a big dude and a flyer and everything you start on the table will move 12". You can then add aspects and jetbikes/ jetbike conversions from there. Also don't worry about other people's opinions on the forum, they probably won't reflect the opinions in your local area. I run only 2 wave serpents at 1850 and NO ONE has ever called cheese on me.

Reading this thread makes me wonder why people play Eldar, much less this game.

"Only take these, these are the only good things" My God, people. I feel like playing Eldar just to start winning with gak nobody uses, since overall their codex is well done. Everyone just overlooks it if it isn't a Wave Serpent, or on a jetbike.

And morgoth is just butt hurt about apparently losing to Necrons a lot. It's okay. Just use that cheese-filled list of Eldar you're talking about, and you'll win. Or maybe not....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Goldphish wrote:

I don't know why people believe that half the book is unplayable. I mean really the only units that I can think of in the codex that are just not playable are banshees, wraithlords, and falcons. Banshees have had pages written about why they are just not viable anymore. IMO Wraithlords are pretty much instantly replaceable by wraithknights and falcons are not better than wave serpents since they both do about the same thing except the falcon has to contend with the other heavy supports which do something wave serpents don't do. The only other thing in the book I can't find a use for are a couple of the phoenix lords.

Enjoy the Exalt I just passed you. Amen.

 Goldphish wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well. The playable units are

Jetseer, DA, FD, Serpents
Wraith knight, Warwalkers, Jetbikes, Jetseer Council
Guardians, Wraithguard and variants
Rangers, Fireprisms.

Squeeze in Warpspiders somewhere.

I don't know why people believe that half the book is unplayable. I mean really the only units that I can think of in the codex that are just not playable are banshees, wraithlords, and falcons. IMO Wraithlords are pretty much instantly replaceable by wraithknights

I've never gotten why Wraithlords aren't good. They're MUCH cheaper than Knights and are still tough and get decent weapons.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Eldar have the cheesiest army selection - full stop - we have a couple of bad choices - Howling Banshees - but what are they other ones that are so very bad?

So... any unit that's not utter garbage is therefore "cheese"? Having a unit selection that isn't 80% terrible or necessitating mono-builds means the entire selection is "cheese"?

Your metric for what's cheesy is ridiculous. Wave Serpents are broken- I'll give you that- and I also don't approve of giving any troops choice 12'' movement- so I'll give you WJB's as well. But everything else? Autarchs, Dire avengers, guardians, banshees, scorpions, warp spiders, Swooping Hawks etc? I don't see how in God's name anyone can claim that these units are "cheese" units unless your definition of cheese is anything that isn't one of the worst units in the game. There's only a few truly broken or overpowered units in the codex- the super-majority of them range from merely average to above-average in utility.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Eldar have the cheesiest army selection - full stop - we have a couple of bad choices - Howling Banshees - but what are they other ones that are so very bad?

So... any unit that's not utter garbage is therefore "cheese"? Having a unit selection that isn't 80% terrible or necessitating mono-builds means the entire selection is "cheese"?

Your metric for what's cheesy is ridiculous. Wave Serpents are broken- I'll give you that- and I also don't approve of giving any troops choice 12'' movement- so I'll give you WJB's as well. But everything else? Autarchs, Dire avengers, guardians, banshees, scorpions, warp spiders, Swooping Hawks etc? I don't see how in God's name anyone can claim that these units are "cheese" units unless your definition of cheese is anything that isn't one of the worst units in the game. There's only a few truly broken or overpowered units in the codex- the super-majority of them range from merely average to above-average in utility.

No I was replying to the ludecrious slection that only Wave Seprents - the cheese unit - was viable and the rest of the Codex is garbage.

As I said the Wave Serpent is Total Cheese, the rest is mostly good, and there are a couple fo poor units. As I made clear - I play Eldar as well.

I think I agree with your sentiment about Wave Serpents- I don't really understand what's so cheesy about our troop selection beyond that and our bikes, though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think I agree with your sentiment about Wave Serpents- I don't really understand what's so cheesy about our troop selection beyond that and our bikes, though.

I was obviously not clear - Wave Serpents = Cheese - the rest is just good - I don't have issues really with then and I am happy to field or fight them - I just won't use Wave Serpents and hate fighting them. What I object to is one poster saying the ELdar choices are all sub par - the same person who suggest a new player load up on Cheese Serpents - but not even use the right model - because I can only assume WAAC reasons - although strangely the Falcon costs more money than the Serpent............

I'll be honest, i have only just got back into playing and picked up a few new things for my eldar, but i dont own a single serpent.

Pure wraith seems to work pretty well for me.

On average:

Spiritseer
Wraithseer

2 units of 5 wraithguard with scythes
++ however many wraithguard i can fit depending on points

2 lance wraithlords
Suncannon wraithknight


If points start going to around 2,500 ill add in more wraithlords and possibly a knight, but they seem pretty stable.

Granted its low model count, but they are pretty tough and against any combat based army the scythes are a pretty solid counter.

They lack movement and range for the most part, but with a good spread its not hard to section off a board.

I just have issues playing DE really.








Edit: Morden - I think he said that about falcons because of the old cloudstrike squadron box.
Was 3 falcons for around 70% of the usual retail or so, but not there any more.

There are four things which, collectively, strike me as being the worst offenders in the book.

1 Waveserpents
2 Battle Focus
3 Laser Lock
4 Wraithknights

Plus a few other bits, such as Guardians inexplicably becoming better trained for the first time in over twenty years for no reason.

I play Eldar a lot, fully 1 in 4 of the 40K players run Eldar at my club and for all the über stuff they've got in the book because reasons, the only thing that really gets me violently irritated is Serpent spam.

I don't care that it is the most slanted power level unit in the game right now, I don't care that it is the list that the most, let's be charitable and call him "competitive," player runs, I don't care if I win against it or not.

No, none of that matters, the thing that bothers me above all things with Serpent spam is that it is utterly boring to play against. It is an easy mode list which just stands off and shoots, and if you get too close, whizzes off in the other direction and stands off and shoots some more. I play daemons, so have access to the tools I would need in order to build a list to beat it, or run it close, but I resent the fact that to do that, it would mean becoming the sort of player I don't want to be. I hate spending 20 minute shooting phases where it feels like the Eldar player essentially keeps rolling dice until he gets the result he wants.

So, yeah, OP, build an Eldar army by all means, but unless you're running it in tourneys or a super competitive environment, please build it with at least some thought for your opponents enjoyment of the game as well as your own.

morgoth wrote:
Never buy guardians.

Bad advice.

nobody uses them

Not true.

nobody needs them

Not true.

don't buy them

Bad advice.

Here's a bright idea: if someone is new to Eldar, how about explaining why they are a bad idea?
Or while discussing, it's generally a good idea to justify your opinions with facts instead of throwing them at people's face and assume that you are right.

Guardians give you double the shots for +25pts while being able to take a minor psyker and a HW.

morgoth wrote:
Do you want to always lose ? In that case, don't start by buying the units that just do not work.

If you seriously think that the second you leave 8 Wave Serpents home you will "always lose", you are either trolling or just really bad at this game.
GJB lists can still dominate a field. Striking Scorpions were pretty common at ETC. Warp Spiders are still played with good success.

You'll have plenty of time to try new combos when you get to know the army, trust me don't buy banshees. they're also $2 for a dozen right now. There's a good reason, you can't win if you use them.

Not saying that they are good, but this just further illustrates my point.

morgoth wrote:
And don't listen to the hypocrites, most of them play armies that don't have horrible second or third choices like the Eldar codex has.

Ehh....? That's right, they don't. Sisters of Battle don't have the second option at all and any of Eldar second, third or fourth choice would stomp them.
And it's pretty much the same with Blood Angels. Oh, and DA. And riiiight.... How about CSM? Or Tyranids? Try to field a top Ork list against a half-assed Eldar army and you'll still lose.

morgoth wrote:

Please enlighten me, which units besides the Banshees are terrible second choices?

Scorpions, Fire Prisms, Falcons, Vypers, Shining spears, rangers, Dire Avengers, Guardians (all versions), Phoenix Lords, Avatar of Khaine, any HQ that is not mantlebike or bare HQ tax.
I'm reserving my judgment on the Nightspinner as I'm currently testing it.

If they perform admirably, it's because your opponent is fielding bad units too, there's no way you can win with a footslogging Eldar against a semi-competitive list.

Dire Avengers aren't bad. Guardians aren't, Fire Prisms aren't, Scorpions aren't. Farseers are the cheapest ML3 psykers in the game and come with 4++ so no, they aren't that bad.

Overall, I would ask you to actually give some proof of those ridiculous claims or I'm just going to assume that you really don't understand this game...

I'll just leave this here...

morgoth wrote:
As a Transport, they undoubtedly got better because a 4+ Jink is safer than a 5+ Jink.

For 145 points with the standard loadout though, the Wave Serpent is one expensive non-Assault Transport, and unless it has something awesome inside... meh.

As a Gunboat, they undoubtedly got nerfed hard: the new Jink can barely be used unless there's only one of your WS visible or it's clearly getting drop-pod-fusioned, and their mobility is restricted because real cover is now a lot better than Jink, even more so with Conqueror of Cities or Night Fighting (2+ cover with Holofields is godlike).

Objective Secured is something every army has, and for the price of a WS there could be 4 Rhinos with the rule on the same objective... not really an advantage to the WS is it ?

In the current MSU meta, 2+ Rhinos for each WS are very likely, so I guess the WS doesn't benefit more than others from this rule and is unlikely to Tank Shock anything out of the objectives.

Verdict: worse.
Much worse as a gunboat, better than ever as a Transport, still 145 points.


Informed opinions welcome.

So, everything is bad but you are testing the nightspinner when there really are alot better choices?
I'm confused.

Scorpions are pretty damn solid IMO.
Throw a claw on the exarch and the damage goes up tenfold.
If you want somethin fun with impact, put karandras with them too.
You then have a unit that blends most things in combat.
Between karandras and the exarch with S6/8 claws at AP2 and initiative they also work wonders on termies aswell.


Avatar is not too shabby, but a bit out classed and easy to pick off.
In combat though he is pretty decent still and a double tap doom is also not too shabby.

Guardians and DA's?
Have you not seen bladestorm?

I prefer a small unit of DA's if i want to hide, but a max unit of guardians with scatter platforms really do chew through anything.
Be it horde or elite units through weight of shots.


Seems like guardians really are seen as under dogs when for the points, they perform pretty well.
Even better with a scatter platform thrown in.

pm713 wrote:
I've never gotten why Wraithlords aren't good. They're MUCH cheaper than Knights and are still tough and get decent weapons.

It really comes down to what you get for your points. A Wraithlord kitted out may be 100 points cheaper, but what do you get for that 100? An extra 6" movement, double wounds, arguably better guns. Your taking the lord/knight to be a giant distraction and the knight is better at it.

morgoth wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I don't always win the battle, but when a squad of Guardians take out a Wraithknight with Overwatch...that is a win in my book.

My list is not uber-competitive, but it still works fairly well (at least for me).

1-2 Farseers
8-10 Warlocks
3 10x Guardians with Bright Lance
3 3x Windrider Guardians
1 Crimson Hunter
1 3x Warwalker w/Bright Lance and Scatter Laser
1 3x Vauls Wrath
1 Night Spinner

That list would be quite decent if you removed the farseers, warlocks and guardians.

So a decent list would be 1 Crimson Hunter, 3 War Walkers, and a Night Spinner? Maybe at low points as Unbound.

When your guardians overwatch'd a WK, you mean they hit with the bright lance, shot 18 shots, hit 3 times, rerolled the other 15, hit another 2 times, and then rolled 5 sixes out of 5 dice and a 2 for the BL ?
Yeah. other units tend to be ace too when you dice only 6 and have a 100+ point support character behind them.

100 point support character. I don't upgrade my Farseers, except for possibly buying a Singing Spear. So 105 points max. And to be fair, the Wraithknight had taken a couple Wounds to begin with.

I don't think you'd stand a chance against a 1000 point competitive list, the only real threat is the WW and Vaul's Wrath, both of which could be dead or denied T1.

Probably, as I don't play competitively. If I wanted a competitive list I'd run DAVU Serpents. Just like every other competitive list.

I don't see the problem with Wraithknights, crunch-wise (they're stupid as hell fluff-wise and I hate them).

You're paying 240 points to put a glorious 1 glance on an AV12 vehicle a turn with a 14% chance to explodes, and a 16% chance to instant-death a non-vehicle per turn.

Wo0o0o...

It's "durable" in that it's T8, meaning that any lascannon is wounding on a 3+, and it's only got a 3+ save.

Is it good? Yah. But it's fairly priced for what it does.

While I agree the WK is only a minor crime in comparison to some of the other issues, you also have to account it is the only commonly played MC to have not been in the least affected by the Nerf to Smash (already naturally strength 10) it also has reasonable damage output in assault with 4A and sensible I (4 IIRC?) and gets to move like a mini-FMC.

It's just yet another unit in the book that has no real downsides and doesn't pay points for it's utility.

 Goldphish wrote:

This post and your previous posts leads me to believe you have little experience with competitive. When you come in and try to gak on everyone's advice please at least have an idea of whats going on. I mean did you just see Tony's list and decide that everything else in the book is bad even though there are numerous top 20 finishers using pretty much every unit in this book including foot slogging eldar?

I did see Tony's list and thought I'd give the Night Spinner a try and I have zero interest for builds that end up 5th Eldar in a tournament where Eldar win the majority of the top 20 seats.
Don't get me wrong, those units are "usable", they're just not part of the best combo you can come up with, that's it.

 Xerics wrote:
The best part of the Eldar codex is with just about everything being viable (except for Howling Banshees and Harlequins) is that you can surprise your oppenent with anything. Here is a 1500 pt list I used that has 0 Wave serpents and I had a blast with it ans do did my opponent (salamanders chapter Space marines).

Autarch: Wrap Jump Pack, Banshee Mask, Scorpion Chainsword, Fusion Gun
Warlocks x2
Guardians x11: Star Cannon
Guardians x10: Star Cannon
Guardians x10: Star Cannon
Wraithknight
Warp Spiders x10
Swooping hawks x5
Swooping Hawk Exarch: Sunrifle
Crimson Hunter Exarch
War Walkers x3: Scatter Laser, Bright Lance, Star Engines

You dont always have to do the best list to have fun playing the game.

How does this claim objectives after the hawks and spider are dead?

morgoth wrote:
Do you want to always lose ? In that case, don't start by buying the units that just do not work.

Scorpions, Fire Prisms, Falcons, Vypers, Shining spears, rangers, Dire Avengers, Guardians (all versions), Phoenix Lords, Avatar of Khaine, any HQ that is not mantlebike or bare HQ tax.
I'm reserving my judgment on the Nightspinner as I'm currently testing it.

If they perform admirably, it's because your opponent is fielding bad units too, there's no way you can win with a footslogging Eldar against a semi-competitive list.

As I said the key is to play with lots of terrain. Makes more units viable and effective. As an Eldar you will love being able to hide your fragile units out of LOS and assault armies will like being able to get into assault, so it ends up being fair for both and a fun challenging game.

But anyway, it looks to me that we don't play the game for the same reasons. I just love the army and I like to field aspect warriors and wraith constructs, they add a lot of color and diversity to the game. Plus leads to some memorable situations. I would be bored to death playing only with WS.

I think you messed up your quotes.

And please ... cut the stereotypical bs.

You don't like competition and you don't like Mech.
Good for you.

I love Eldar, I love Eldar models, I paint all of them even those that are unplayable, I like their fluff too.
And I love making terrain, tables and all that stuff.
I love strategy games, I enjoy tactical options and agile units, I'm a huge fan of the Falcon hull, and anything Mech / fast in general.

And I play units that are competitive, because I respect the game and want to learn it, rather than keep on learning that my army list is just bad.

WS are far from boring by the way, they're a very technical unit.


With regards to terrain, I don't think there's any good answer.
When you have a lot of LOS blocking, it's favoring mobile armies, like the Eldar (the good kind, even though the footdar can also take advantage of it).
When you have too much LOS blocking, it's auto win for assault armies, which the Eldar cannot have.
When you have standard terrain (25% of the table, one third hills one third woods one third ruins), I don't really know what it favors tbh.

morgoth wrote:

WS are far from boring by the way, they're a very technical unit.

Saying things does not make them true. Saying things does not make people auto agree with you, especially when they're as bull gak crazy as this little nugget.

Waveserpents are literally "point at biggest threat, keep rolling dice until it goes away" the only thing that complicates this is a substantial amount of AV13+, in which case you just focus on softer targets and send your anti-tank after them (I've seen Bright Lance War Walkers, Fire ?Dragons and Wraith units all used to some degree of success)

Technical unit?

I'm content at this point to declare you either a troll or hopelessly out of touch with the reality of the game, you're more than welcome to choose which.

I repeat my statement from another thread:

Wave Serpent spam is the hard counter to fun.

I play units that are competitive, because I respect the game and want to learn it, rather than keep on learning that my army list is just ba

Isn't that:

I play units that are complete cheese, beacuse I want to win and claim I am a great player, rather than admit that the units won the game for me without any real effort.

 Goldphish wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I've never gotten why Wraithlords aren't good. They're MUCH cheaper than Knights and are still tough and get decent weapons.

It really comes down to what you get for your points. A Wraithlord kitted out may be 100 points cheaper, but what do you get for that 100? An extra 6" movement, double wounds, arguably better guns. Your taking the lord/knight to be a giant distraction and the knight is better at it.

I can understand that. Personally I prefer my lord still but each to their own.

Wraith lords have a low damage output and are very slow.
The only use of them is holding your flanks.
Hello outflanking Genestealers getting into rnge of the WLs flamers.

morgoth wrote:
When you have too much LOS blocking, it's auto win for assault armies, which the Eldar cannot have.

As a Blood Angels player, I can't stand for this nonsense.
Name one assault army that "auto-wins" against any Eldar list that isn't written in two minutes with limited options... Your statement is simply not true.

 soomemafia wrote:

morgoth wrote:
When you have too much LOS blocking, it's auto win for assault armies, which the Eldar cannot have.

As a Blood Angels player, I can't stand for this nonsense.
Name one assault army that "auto-wins" against any Eldar list that isn't written in two minutes with limited options... Your statement is simply not true.

Pretty much every statement that person makes is untrue.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

morgoth wrote:
When you have too much LOS blocking, it's auto win for assault armies, which the Eldar cannot have.

As a Blood Angels player, I can't stand for this nonsense.
Name one assault army that "auto-wins" against any Eldar list that isn't written in two minutes with limited options... Your statement is simply not true.

Pretty much every statement that person makes is untrue.

It is funny how he claims that he loves mech Eldar, then saying that vypers, warwalkers, prisms and falcons are useless crap.