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 obsidiankatana wrote:
Fun fact, night shields + jink = 3+ cover. That's power armor on a fast assault transport. If you're wych rushing, that means the enemy gets about one round of shooting that's 1/3 effective without IG orders or being Eldar (and Eldar kill everything, always). Wouldn't be too concerned about exploding raiders, which if exploded would take out about half the squad (not the whole thing).

No need to make a bad situation seem worse than it is.

You do need to worry about exploding transports. With AV10, pens happen often. And as you get down to 0 HP, if you only take pens from AP- weapons you have a 44% chance of exploding. AP2 is ~65% and AP1 is 83%.

And when your transport does go boom, it takes out more than half the squad and occationally the hextrix with agonizer, who is a huge loss. The chance to lose more than 5 models, or lose the hextrix is high. Either will completely neuter the squad and leave them out in the open to be dakkaed down.

This is like the exact same thread I have read several times about Genestealers. At least Genestealers have rending and can infiltrate into cover (except, 4 points more per model, so still not good). Sorry DE players, but having your formerly awesome CC unit turned into a "maybe they can counter-charge something mediocre" unit just sucks. All of the proffered ideas rely on unlikely scenarios such as popping a transport with squishy infantry nearby, and then needing to stop the other guy's squishes from killing your squishes. My apologies, but that is just not a good unit.

I advise equipping them with the Shelf Glaive, which has a S of box and an AP of display case. My apologies on this craptastic situation.

Asmodas wrote:

I advise equipping them with the Shelf Glaive, which has a S of box and an AP of display case. My apologies on this craptastic situation.

Dam that sounds like that would counter dust hard.

What about a HQ with a wwp bringing 20 wyches? Theyll be coming in with FNP working. Maybe a haemonculous for some extra love? Twenty wyches in the backfield could really hurt.

Can they still take Haywire?

Only the squad leader, so no, not really.

 Red Marine wrote:
What about a HQ with a wwp bringing 20 wyches? Theyll be coming in with FNP working. Maybe a haemonculous for some extra love? Twenty wyches in the backfield could really hurt.

In the backfield?
Warriors are better when it comes to holding an objective. They can babysit heavy weapons.

Wyches are buffed in terms of survivability due to much easier access to FNP and Raiders getting 3+ jink. They also gained a buff in 7e due to less vehicle explosions. Was anyone getting pain tokens in the last codex and getting their Wyches FnP? Yeah, no. Now they're 4++ in CC and then FnP if they fail that. Unless they're countering turn one pods or something then he turn they get into CC they'll only have 6+ FnP but it's something.

I'm not saying Wyches are particularly good but they're role-players. You put Wyches on an opponent's MC or walker. Or their shooty marines. Or Termis. Or Mephiston. Or Centurions. Or Wraith units (at least they can FNP Scythes now).

People need to make some adjustments. 5-wych squads don't have the same utility due to the loss of Haywire so consider taking maybe 6-8 Wyches in a Raider. Jink the Raider like a freaking cricket. Take the hydra gauntlets and a Hekatrix for the Ld point. 2/3 of the drugs will make them considerably better in CC while the +LD drug makes them LD10 tarpits.

I played a Cult list last weekend and got 6x Wyches on an invisible Centstar, tying them up until my next turn when my Reavers showed up and massacred them (Reavers are a hard counter to invisibility, something the stupid reviewers are too dim to realize). Anyway, it was cool to see Wyches making successful FnP checks when being beat about the head and shoulders by a Chapter Master. They even got a lucky wound on him.

Oh and consider Shock Prows on Raiders. After Wyches assault out of them, tank shock people in the face for the rest of the game. No sense in snap firing a silly lance.

In regards to the Heldrake shenanigans, everyone is missing the fact that it has a 5++, and so it doesn't need to ever jink to fire its weapons.

Wyches haven't been good since 5th. Back then FNP was a 4+ so with an attached Heamonculi they could survive explosions and then tarpit like no-ones business with a 4++ and 4+ FNP.

The only use for them from 6th onwards has been for haywire loving which felt slightly wrong. Even in the 3rd ed codex they weren't very killy with the agoniser doing all the heavy lifting. With the nerf to agonisers they lost edge. Then overwatch, random charge distance and the nerf to FNP crushed them.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
In regards to the Heldrake shenanigans, everyone is missing the fact that it has a 5++, and so it doesn't need to ever jink to fire its weapons.

Jink is a 4+. I'm assuming chaos player in question took 4+ saves. If not, well, yeah. Daemon.